People sold god weapons to fund booster binges all the time. Thats how I bought my first god weapons. I was involved with most of the god weapon sales over a 2 year period when people weren't buying/selling from me they were asking me who was since they knew I tracked that stuff and asking me how much they should offer. They were not uncommon at all over that 2 year period. If an Ostaff or SoSS has changed hands since the time tiers were announced, I would be amazed.

The tier system did a lot more damage to the god market than anything else, because that hit it from the demand side, but people are hoarding a lot more god weapons now too. Heck, I have SoSS, ME, Swash, and The Ether wasting away on my account.

Going from an MCAB to a God weapon barely does anything to your ability to fight. It goes from 23 icons to 45 icons, thats only approximately doubling your damage. It's not completely worthless, because it makes a fight less tedious, which when you are doing battlequests as a chore it cuts the time in half. It also reduces your ability to get unlucky getting double crit hit in a row.

However, it terms of designing a challenger to be beaten by an opponent it did almost nothing. What almost always determined your ability to beat an opponent was your ability to survive. And ability to survive was 95% Healing 5% defense, even when that defense was 100% blockers. And MCAB and god weapons had the exact same healing range.

By making the tier system, they did absolutely nothing to their ability to design challengers, it only took away the ability for certain players to use their weapons.

For about 6 months I borrowed a top 50 stat pet in the game, and own almost every useful non god weapon released before the tier system, and was able to borrow any god weapon in the game if I wanted to test something. We tested and theory crafted several ways to exploit the system, and we found some ways, and we reported them and they were patched.

[Edit]

I don't think a phantom cap would be that bad of an idea. But you would need to make it something like STR stops mattering at 5K, Defense Stops mattering at 5K, and god weapons stop healing at a certain point (they might have even already done something like this? I don't remember, I haven't been able to use mine for a while...).

your sarcasm always makes me laugh so hard! I love your postings.

RE speed

I know, we have had the speed debate before and Cranberry has to date never backed up nor denied her ancient statement, which I can no longer find on the forums, yet am definitely not imagining. However, what I did notice and still can find on the board is Purge's post about the Twisted Keeper Focus https://subeta.net/forums.php/read/818609/Focus-and-Skull-Staff-RESEARCH-THREAD/3, the cap of which just like with the Godlies' lies at 4k speed.

well 1 it does not really matter on who autos who don't anyways it still cost subeta money by having the cap in place...

[Well, my friend, 5 dollars a day is 5 dollars a day]x say 365 days it has been a lot longer but i will take that.= $1825.00 if that don't mean anything to you then no wonder some of your post looks like my 4 yr old wrote it.............

@ THESOVEREIGN I'm certain some have, but the only people who are willing to sell are ones who quit completely or just don't battle. Besides which god weapons, while god weapons are probably a ridiculously large part of the battle economy, they are a ridiculously small quantity, and quite frankly aren't the best thing for battling in general. Having that high of a standard to compare other weapons to means that either more OP weapons are made or that weapons are far worse in comparison. Undoubtedly we would be at a point where the people who have god weapons are the people who want them and are going to use them and not sell them at any price. I don't think that the stat cap hindered that and furthermore even if it did slow it down, I don't think it stopped it. going from an MCAB to a god weapon does ridiculous things to your ability to fight. MCAB would never be a viable weapon to use against baenwurath, while OStaff is basically a necessity for 10 wins, and for most people who didn't optimize their builds, even just to get 5. Again baenwurath completely nullifies your argument. But I was also referring to small opponents that where meant to be designed for battlers with a lower tier pet. Instead they had to be designed with silly things like no healing/freezing etc to account for OP weapons. It has directly been said by staff that they used to design opponents with that in mind and now they don't have to. I think that's better rather than worse. The system isn't the same as it was before the stat cap and tier system and quite frankly it's better now. Defense is meaningful, there's a healing cap, so you can't just rely on 4k heals per turn with 14k hp, that doesn't exist as it shouldn't. Speed is basically still useless but they seem to be trying to bring more use into it as well as defense.

[edit] your edit made it clear you're not really aware of how the current battle situation is. first, that idea is being labeled a soft cap while a phantom cap just means no harder challengers to cater to the higher than cap pets. Also there are healing caps based roughly at 7.5k with some exceptions.

don't know where you get 20hrs from but mine at cap got 11hrs

The irony is strong when it's telling me that my posts looks like a 4 year old wrote them.

$1825 a year is the same thing as $5 a day. It's not more, it's the exact same amount. I don't actually remember how long my training courses used to be, but I'm pretty sure it was close to 20 hours.

There is no evidence suggesting that the cap lost Subeta money. If anything, more people joined battling after the cap was put in place. On every debate there are good and bad arguments for each side, the bad make you lose credibility, so please, stop using them.

don't know where you get 20hrs from but mine at cap got 11hrs

My pet isn't capped, and I'm already up to 12 hours with a GA, 14 without. That's at level 1704.

With numbers like that, there's no way I would ever consider auto training that pet.

yes it is true the my typing is so bad due to not leaning to well in school because the teacher just set on her ass reading love stories instead of teaching class. BUT at least i try my best to put into writing what i am thinking un like you reminding me of a school bully and typing without thinking it though like a 4 yr old talks.......

but i do like you as a friend in a whole so i disregard some of your sarcasm remarks :).

i hit cap at 1500 level because i wanted lower training time i only trained defense

i decided to look back when cap was put into place http://subeta.net/forums.php/read/107837 Keith Posted on: 08/25/11 at 2:41am

dang it's been that long man how time flies

Who said anything about validity? Why should training be mandatory but strategizing merely optional? Just because you like one and not the other? There are plenty of opponents a capped pet can steamroll. A couple opponents requiring good weapons and strategy as well as stats to beat isn't a bad thing.

I think more people joined because of tiers and the reorganization/release of cheaper weapons that worked well for low tiers.

The idea of tiers absolutely helped, I think. Call me weird, but I feel like tiering was a good addition to battling. Yes, it was cool to use godlies to beat top opponents with tier 5 pets, but the tiers are fine. The only issue I see is what you brought up, what kind of weapons would there be in tiers beyond 12. That's why I'm really stumped about more tiers.

Tier 12 already has so little (M-Weapon, Ballista and ??? I can't even name all tier 12 weapons)

I'm kind of torn on the steamrolling vs. strategizing debate. One the one hand, as someone who does like to strategize, it's hard not to have an emotional "but I'm better than them, I should have nicer things!" type of reaction. But, at the end of the day if someone is only using the TC to train their pet, that's a long fucking road. And even if someone is doing BQs every day but they aren't strategizing and being smart about their stats, they get less exp because it takes them longer to beat opponents. So if someone who knows/cares absolutely nothing about battling can eventually beat Baenwurath 10 times by sheer force, someone who strategizes and picks a smart build still has the advantage of being able to do it sooner.

I also agree with , though, that there being literally ONE opponent that capped pets can't just steamroll their way to 5 wins on isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Oh, and count me in as one of the weirdos that likes boss battles. ┐(ﾟ～ﾟ)┌

And regardless of what happens with the cap, the high score page needs to come back. If it's too much work/not worth it to recode, just put the old one back up and take it down during boss battles. It's not like it gets much of any traffic any other time.

1 Exception doesn't nullify an argument at all, its an exception, for the 20 battlers out of maybe 5000 battlers. Why would I spend 2 years and a couple bil training to have one decent experience battling. Everything else up until that point would be tedium.

On smaller pets, the problem is that they made 10 icons the starting point lol, and then they gave those weapons healing lol. A 10HP/10/10/10 pet can hit for 21 without using bombs... while healing...

Also, my edit says that I don't know for sure what has happened in the last couple years. I have pretty much quit after my multi billion sp set was reduced to a 30mil set...

But up until the point that I quit, I was part of the group that found many of the abusive strategies. I'm part of the reason that 2K/2K/2K/2K pets lose a percentage of there stats when they are transfered to new owners. I found infinite battle token glitches. I found exploits for dealing massive damage to war bosses in a couple seconds. I found several combinations of weapons that would allow small pets to beat more difficult opponents. All of which were reported to admins, and patched.

My point is I know what was an what was not possible pre tier system, I tested and tried everything I could think of back then, and very often the battle admins had no idea what was going on at the lower end of battling. At one point one of the battle admins thought that a medium opponent would require a 100/100/100/100 pet to take down, it takes an untrained pet what are now I think tier 4 weapons

God weapons barely did anything to the ultimate outcome to all but the most extreme cases when compared to MCAB. In the most extreme cases, after glaring errors were patched, the perfect combination of god weapons could maybe push your pet 25-35% higher when compared to something like MCAB, which seems fair for a 1.8bil investment... Where a 1.7K pet with MCAB and whatever the other budget 10% healer at the time was could beat saggi, a pet with MStaff + Ether, culd probably beat him with 1300 stats, maybe 1100 if they wanted to spend a couple hours per win. But post Aaron fix, it was never a 100 stat pet beating those opponents with god weapons.

Things are different now, baenwurath is just one example but its the most obvious and prevalent example, for most capped battlers it's the one hurdle they want to pass, but basically every new challenger can be used as a example. Staff can make challengers catered to specific stats/tiers more successfully now because they know exactly what weapons are possible to use against it and more importantly, that no one is just going to use way OP weapons to make it absolutely no challenge. You don't need to spend 2 years and a couple billion to have a decent battling experience anymore, it's not like it was before the cap. Instead, because you're limited in weapons, most opponents can put up a challenge as you're working your way up through the tiers, if you're willing to not just wait until you're over-statted for them. That's a heck of a lot better idea than just letting the starter pet destroy everything the the FoRR combo or summat. I think the fact that you don't actually know what has happened lately sort of invalidates your opinion on the current state of affairs. If you're not really sure how things are working right now, how do you know it's worse? Is it solely because you can't use your set anymore or something else that you've seen or heard specifically? It's obvious you have knowledge of the way things used to be though, I know that without you saying it directly :P. But I totally disagree that having a pet with essentially ~360m or better less worth of stats at a point very early in the game where a difference in stats should mean even more should be able to defeat opponents that higher pets struggle with, simply because the user invested in weapons rather than the long term investment of a pet. It doesn't have to be those specific numbers either, battling should be about the pet first, and the set second. I think for the most part it is right now, there is room for a lot of improvement, but overall the cap has done wonders. Obviously the major exception is basically needing an Ostaff for a capped pet to beat baenwurath 10 times. Also it is no longer possible for an untrained pet to beat a medium opponent with tier 4 weapons, so, problem solved, right :)?

God weapons might not have previously, but with capped healing and no 100% blockers, they make a lot more difference now. I do agree that they ought to allow you to go above and beyond what most people can do (though I'd rather see a total weapon/opponent revamp and EVERYTHING made much less overpowered, but still with god weapons being the best). But they certainly should never be an alternative to investing the pet to begin with.

about beating a medium opponent with 4 tier weapon what do you mean? why i ask is a tier 1 to 2 can beat med opp.

but no longer with tier 4 weapons :P and a freshly made pet can't beat medium opponents, it needs at least a few days of training and even then, at high tier 1 it's only going to be able to get 1 or 2 wins and only on maybe 3 opponents tops if theyre lucky. overall most opponents are going to take higher stats with better tier weapons just to get the first win.

have they changed scrolls on low tier if not all you need is 1 day training and read all books that are cheap [480] magic number put 2 scrolls on and finish off all but non heal opponents. i have done it a few times since cap.

You would still have some trouble getting more than one win, and also that takes at the very least ~50m in addition to a great deal of time to buy and read all the books. Whereas that 50m would be a months auto-training and easily tier 3+ stats. The latter of which will get you more than one win on 2 medium opponents. I've done the same and even with 2 morosbanes, T2 pets still have a hard time after a few wins because it gets to the point where you can't beat the opponent in just 2 turns. At even 100 strength, a morosbane scroll does less than 100 damage by itself.

Morosbane is what i used but i never had trouble. i would autotrain health put all exp on strengthen never had trouble until hard then i had to wait until i was bigger

Hmm...you do raise good points. You mentioned something about uber mods...so the mod crystals?

Do you perhaps know why those other crystals were never released then? I know there was some reason why, but now with tiers, wouldn't it make sense to release those higher crystals, so then everyone has an opportunity to mod their weapons to be effective, regardless of tier?

they weren't released because they weren't needed, two levels of mods is already powerful enough

the stats they had when they were first released were ridiculous