Yeah, but how long will it take for prices to fall? If no one has the sP to even buy the items in the first place, they'll be sitting there with their same prices for a long time. Not only that, but imagine joining Subeta for the first time, and seeing how difficult it is to make sP. It would seriously turn me off from the site.

Look at Neopets. It's hard as hell to make NP, but do prices really seem to be falling? If anything they went up even more.

One day doesn't show that there is a problem with too much SP being given out... Compile a week or better yet a month worth of data, where you do every single quest (even if it's not profitable)... THAT would give a better idea of how questing is impacting the SUbeta economy.

Also, cutting quest rewards directly benefits people with a lot of sP saved up right now. So nerfing that would just further the wealth disparity

I could probably come up with a couple theories, even though I haven't seen an increase in quest payout from the recent changes.

1. Vending rarity being nerfed More people are switching to quests because vending is not profitable as it was.

2. Saggi asking for 3-4 rare items (instead of 1-2) The sP reward needs to increase to reflect the investment.

Mike did illustrate his point, although it's important to ensure that quests are worth doing. There was over 1750b sP before the MC pet slots, then it dropped to about 1739b, but now it's back to 1747b again. So did a significant amount of users already bought their extra slots? O_o

Some possible suggestions:

1. Keep the quests profitable but ask for fewer expensive items Even unprofitable quests are putting sP into the economy depending on the amount they pay out.

2. Put pet changing items in the MC for a limited time I notice the potions are getting rather expensive. Use the opportunity for a sP sink (for example 10m a color potion)

"Quests give not enough sP!" "The rewards are bad and weird!" "Quests give too much sP!"

Where is the truth tho?

This is such an important point that I think about often. So many people on this site lose their heads over our fake, pixel economy, that they come out with these intense graphs tracking sP over months, constantly shit on people's suggestions because it would create unbalance in the economy, and generally give too many damns about the flow of digital coins in an imaginary world. Come on, people. It's a game. It's okay if the economy is not perfect.

People don't do their quests every day. This site doesn't have a great selection of games that give out good sP, like Neo did (back in the day, anyway). Questing is the foundation of sP flow for people who aren't artists/paying to play. If you rip out the sP from questing, it will become useless for a lot of people. It is more important for the site's longevity to have happy players (aka people who can earn sP), then to have a repressed, realistic economy, like the shitty one we're all suffering through in the real world right now. Subeta is not the monopoly of pet sites. There are others that people could join. If Subeta takes a hard-as-balls stance to earning sP, the people who can't quest that much and can only spend little chunks of time on Subeta will gives those little chunks of time to a competing pet site that will actually reward them for their efforts.

Also:

Say a user really wants to buy one of those sparkly new collection items that just came out. CSC is 12 mil approx for 250 CSC. Now let's say the average user does do all their quests every day (but they don't irl). 2 mil a day on average. So this means it would take 6 days to save up enough sP to buy ONE item. With there being 24,000 wardrobe items ALONE on site not including minions, potions, plushies, etc, that means to build any sort of accomplishment over owning an item the user wanted would take a very long time. And let's be real, retired CS items and so on cost even more than that, and retired items aren't going to drop in value just because less sP is on site. It just makes them more valuable than ever, and then no one can afford them.

I really think the way quests are now is perfectly fine. There are so many ways to spend sP on site and so many items that everyone wants that cutting down the only way some users profit (not all of us can buy CSC and sell it for sP) isn't at all fair.

truth is relative. there is no absolute truth.

I'd like to add that my main source of income on subeta is questing, and also that I don't tend to do all my quests everyday, on average I do just BQ's, wiz and quentins, and I've steadily kept up enough money to always have 100m+ in the vault and train one pet in to the top 20 and another to t12 as well as having billions in weapons/scrolls. So this would pretty directly affect me, in the way it would most people, I would think.

What most people don't seem to understand is that a functioning economy is vital to the longevity of the site. That's why keith keeps trying to do things to FIX it, because it's rather BROKEN. And two things that are absolutely paramount to control in an online game economy like this, are the inflow and outflow of currency. Since no one has come up witha good viable long term sP sink that keeps people spending there money in a way that's consistently leaving the economy at a rate that's comparable to the incredible amount of inflow, it's broken.

letting it get so bad that we can cut everything by 10 is pretty ridiculous man :/ And if it keeps getting worse and no one flips the switch to cut all sp by 10x, sP basically losses all value as a currency. The exchange rate is items and other currencies on site, it does matter.

my point was just 500 people doing 30 quests a day, a very realistic number given the quest-a-thon had 7 times as much. I'm not trying to take the fun out of the game, I'm trying to get people to realize a game can't last if it collapses because of a completely broken economy, and fix it before it gets that far.

probably quite a while to be honest, that's just how thigns work, just like how all the restocking changes and what not have taken a long time and are still only just starting to really take effect. And people already have sP, 14m on average, and if it can't be made so easily from quests that likely means more trading between players. And after things settle out, it won't be harder to buy things for a newbie than it is now, since they would be making the same amount relative to costs. Think of how hard it is for a newbie currently to come in and look at every item in the cash shop selling for tens of millions because csc is 50m/1k (down from 60m/1k after many sales and new rewards releases).

it has been a consistent on going problem, I didn't do quests for the first time ever today and decide it was broken... I simply kept more precise track of things today specifically so i could have some hard numbers. And I know how saggi averages out and 1.65m over 15 quests is pretty below average, in fact my highest reward was only 170k. On a normal day he can pay 400k in one quest.

This is why the next step is pertinent, giving people, most especially those with lots and lots of sP (say 36b) something to spend it on, including some ways that take sP out of the economy in a significant portion

people want what they want regardless of whether its sustainable in the long term. Thats proven anywhere you look in life, for sure.

I rather enjoy playing subeta and I'd like to see it have far more long term success. having a basic working functional not broken economy at the foundation is rather important.

now imagine if those prices where much lower... as if there was less inflation, maybe even some deflation...

we cannot make huge cuts to things though without pissing off a MASSIVE part of the userbase. what's the point in making sP worth more if no one plays subeta any more because they do not think it's as user friendly any more? a lot of people on subeta played neopets where it is considerably harder to save up money. they come here and see it as a lot of fun, since it's not too hard to make enough to buy something they want. we really need more users, more transactions between users, and more sinks, nerfing sP from rewards only hurts the poorer people and will drive at least some people off of the site.

If you're serious : Marry me. Like, right now.

I've been yelling at quests being too generous for months

Your money will be worthless in two years, if we don't curb inflation. You can choose to either make less money now, and have this money retain value, or have ALL THE MONEY NOW and realize that in two years from now, 100M will barely be enough to buy the CSC to buy one CW.

Go look at people whining about things in the antique shop being too expensive. Is this okay?

It's actually the same worth, accounting inflation. Meaning, things that were selling for 9M in 2009 are now selling for 45M. You lost so much buying power in years, it's not funny.

If inflation is not stopped, Subeta won't be fun to play in a couple years from now. Look at Gaia. Look at Neopets. They have too many gold generators and not enough sinks and now, they're not fun anymore.

Stop thinking only about the present, and consider the future of the site as well.

My point is that the items will not deflate if quests are taken out of the picture or give out less rewards.

Let's take neo for example. Most items on the site are now worth under about 5k neopoints. You would think, with no one having much to spare, the price of the super expensive items would drop too. Guess what. They didn't. Draik eggs did, but only because they were handed out in an event very regularly. But some of the paintbrushes? They didn't drop. They went higher, and now only the elite can afford them. Because people think "they're valuable, I'm going to get everything I can out of them" not "oh, item prices are dropping, I should price this lower." It doesn't work that way.

CSC is a very valuable part of subeta. It's not going to drop in price the way you think it's going to. It's in very high demand and lowering the amount of rewards of one of the SOLE ways of getting sP if you don't pay to play just means it's going to be more difficult for the average user to get items they want. Again, with thousands and thousands of items on site, we don't need to lower the amount of sP we get. Even now things aren't easily obtainable, so why do we need to lower the amount handed out even more? I get probably 3-4 mil a day between questing and selling items. Holy crap, that's a lot! you say, but not when the item I want is 20 mil. Not when the item I want is retired or a donation present from a long time ago. If we want to still be able to obtain things on the site with a bit of effort, then the LAST thing we need to do is nerf quests.

I just don't think we need to completely slash quest rewards that way? Like, yeah, Wizard Quests could probably hand out a little less sP, but by and large quests aren't giving out exorbitant amounts, and it's the way a lot of people make their sP. I barely make any money doing anything else, so gutting the amounts/completely removing the sP from quests means I'm not able to save up at a decent rate, which means the site isn't particularly fun anymore.

I don't know; I just don't think this is the best way to deal with inflation.

Back when the average user had 5M, like, in 2010 or so, 500 CSC sold for 4 to 6M.

Now? 20-27M, depending on sales, new releases and the weather.

Because SP's value is bad. Yes, it's cool to go and have giant piles of SP, but what are you going to do with these giant piles of SP, when everything rises in price?

I liked wizard better when he handed out tokens only. Tokens are valuable right now, something I didn't expect to happen again! (Remember when they were selling for 500 sp per pt?) It's one of the quests where a SP reward isn't necessary, as long as he gives a good supply of tokens.

What's the point on cutting amounts earned back and then the cost of items. Despite how little or how much you earn the items' values will still be the same. This is just the dumbest thing I've ever read about and should be just stopped XS What's the difference if the same item cost 1000000 or 10000000 if items' costs and sP earnings were cut back?!? There is none!!!

The whole economy would still be the same despite how much someone earns. This is just madness all around and would be 9984295893025793959348483+% more work on the staff XS headdesk

I know that the vast majority of this site does not want to see earning difficulties on this site and see this site fall downhill and turn into the same difficulties as Neo. IF YOU LIKE HOW NEO DOES THINGS SO MUCH AND HOW EARNINGS ARE MADE OVER THERE, GO BACK TO NEO!!!!

Just because you don't like things as easy, doesn't mean that others don't.

500 CSC valued at, what? 24 mill at the moment? would be the same value now as if it was worth less if quest sP payouts would be decreased. The time and effort and length of saving up for something would still be exactly the same!!!!! So just...stop this XS

I'd be mostly fine with that, I think? I mean, yeah, I'd miss the extra sP, but generally Wiz Quests are cheap and lord knows I have enough tokens to sell some off if I need to...

Regardless, it doesn't matter if you cut the value of sP. You would need the entirety of subeta's userbase to downprice all the items they own in order for it to work, which is not at all likely. So cutting back quest rewards would just hurt the economy.

Considering Subeta has held together for a solid decade, I don't think the people panicking need to be so rabid over the economy as much as they have been. A pixel economy that is being tracked via database could quickly be cleaned up by the programmers if anything serious were to tip the scales and f up the playability of it for members. It's not a real economy, where people could stash under the table money, slip under tax radar, etc to alter the entire system. I still stand by my point that people need to relax and not literally stress themselves out and lose sleep concocting these grandiose plans to save Subeta's economy, especially by ways that would make things less fun in the present just for the sake of the future pretend economics structure. There won't be a future for the site if the present sucks and people leave.

Wrong.

500 CSC was going for around the account worth of the average user in 2010, around 5.5, while the average user had about 4.5M. So, about 122% of the average user's SP worth, a little above and beyond.

500 CSC now goes for 24M, which is 171% of the average user's SP worth. And, it's cruising fast to 200%

The more SP is in the system, the more we all lose out.

If no one is able to purchase at the inflated prices, prices will be slashed and undercut by competiting sellers, a practice that is already in place.

I don't lose sleep over that. If anything, I think people that complain each time quest rewards are changed to give out less SP should relax and start considering other things to hold onto than SP, such as ETS ressources. CSC is inflating, it doubled in price over the last 24 months, people should think about making large piles of CSC, not large piles of SP.

I seriously hope that none of you are working at the stock market, because I wouldn't make money with your advice.

is it possible that there are more things in the cash shop and not as many people who buy csc, so its price have adjusted because of this reason, not because of the amount of sP in the system?