RE: "promises" I recognize the frustration though- Subeta is over a decade old and has been plodding along with a lot of problems and unfinished projects for so long, so now that a big change is coming that effects a lot of users and a lot of areas of the site, it isn't gonna be smooth. It's understandable that this is how things have played out since Subeta has such a small team and small funds. But basically, the way people play has to change, and since changes like this have been drawn out for so long it's just a lot of growing pains on all sides of the equation.

I don't think it's unfair to complain about what has been said in the past suddenly changing. It's been one thing after another for years and so many different expectations have come and gone, it's been hard to keep track of. I mean, this reasoning is basically the same reasoning behind other features, like the wardrobe which was trashed and restarted a few times and took forever, and people are concerned about items in the old shop system because of incidents like our old smail getting deleted when we were reassured multiple times it wouldn't be. So while people are unnecessarily rude, the concern is coming from a legitimate place.

Not to mention "promises ten months ago are invalid" is basically saying "don't take anything we are saying now seriously because in ten months we might as well be a whole new website."

We have been kinda yanked back and forth about this- stop hoarding, hoarding is bad, strict item limits, users have too many individual items, you don't need all these items- simultaneously, have hundreds of new items every month, half a dozen recolours of every wearable, multiple site features and events ask for items so it's the most convenient for you to have lots laying around, not to mention the past two years artists have made a huge improvement in quality and variety of items released. Subeta is super item-focused and that is what a lot of people are here for, and mostly it just sounds like we're getting that taken away and that's where a lot of panic and anger might be coming from. At least that's where mine has been coming from.

Idk if there is anything in particular anyone can do to change things at the moment, as usual things will calm down with time. It might be cool to have something brief and bold on the news acknowledging people's concerns about gallery and shop availability? Maybe some kind of pep talk like: "This is one step in the direction of a stable site. The immediate plans are to iron out the problems holding back the site right now, which will make more site features possible in the future. We are only in pre-planning stages (or brainstorming or whatever it would be, idk?) for future gallery/collections/pet collection options that will be made possible with these site improvements, so be sure to frequent the suggestions forums. Hold tight while we're working and thank you for your patience. "

You know, more professionally, but that's the idea.

I get the distrust, and I'd be interested to know if splitting it is still an option or if there's a reason why that can't be so any more. I have a feeling no matter what, things wouldn't be boundless because that's just not practical. But people are too hung up on something said 10 months ago. The battle admins said right after the last gelatin war that there would be another one the following year. The next year, we heard there wasn't going to be one. Sure a lot of people were upset, but no one has called for their heads over it.

galleries are different. They're a place where people can put items either bought by them or gifted to them that they love. There should't be a limit on that. It'll just make the buyer or the gifter upset. These multiple items are being used by way of them being displayed in galleries; especially when they're theme galleries. What's the point on having theme galleries if people can't have multiples of what they really love? :/

I said it was a dumb comparison, and pointed out why.

What you and others need to understand is that there is a difference between an individual changing their mind, and a business owner changing the way their business operates.

Not all individuals are business owners. Not all Subeta users are even adults. To pretend like we are all the same when the decisions we make have very different results than the decisions that makes is offbase.

I get it you support staff and all that they do. I commend you for that positivity. But trying to justify Keith's wishy-washyness by pointing out that as children many of us said we were going to be something that we are not, was quite dumb.

Unlimited anything isn't practical though. You know why they retired 2012 in the menagerie? Once things get large enough, they don't scale well. They bog down the system and they cause problems.

Dumb wasn't a good word choice. I understand your point, but you could have made it differently. I explained why I made the comparison that I did. I don't think people are bound to what they've said in the past. If there's a good reason for a change, I'll forgive them for being wrong.

Business owners are people though. It's not like Keith is the owner of amazon. He owns a small website. I think there's a huge difference there.I don't think he deliberately lied to us.

I'm supportive in the fact that when I get upset over something, I don't hold it against them for long. I trust that most of staff does things to what they think will benefit the site. I'm making that comparison so people maybe will look at it with an outside perspective. Try to look at it like you were Keith. He probably said what he said because at the time, it was accurate. 10 months later, maybe that's not so realistic. I don't know the reasons, but I'd like to trust him because it's a lot more fun to play a site that I believe in.

and Amber said that once they change things and give those years their own pages, they'll be bringing them back.

It's the straw that broke the camel's bakc in regards to this whole gallery thing.

Yeah but that will require new coding. Galleries could one day be pulled out of shops perhaps, but I still expect some upper bound on them. Maybe they get optimized so much so that the limit is higher than people can reach, but at least it will be set so having a large gallery won't impact site performance.

Not to mention galleries are dealing with a TON of money (sP and real), time and effort that people are being asked to get rid of. a challenger not showing up doesn't do anything for the money time and effort sunk into training, but being asked to limit your displays does.

The war being brought back affects the price of the weapon that is the prize. Many people were going to try to earn their own, if not then buy one after the war. The war being brought back was the reason only the top 30 were awarded instead of the top 50. I would have earned one if it was the top 50. Battling requires more time, effort, and money than most other aspects of the site. Sure it affects fewer people. I'm not saying these are the same thing, but it's not the first time staff has said one thing and did another.

My word choice was about as good as the comparison you made. :)

Personally, I don't necessarily think made the statement he did 10 months ago with the intent to lie. He was responding to negative feedback, and reassuring the angry players by stating he had made an error and that they had nothing to fear was probably the best possible thing he could do at the time. The problem is he seems to have forgotten what he said and why. People were upset about the limits then. He made it better by saying there will be no limits. Surely you can see how going back on that equals even more anger?

For those that may be open to looking past what was said versus what is being done, I think if gave a more indepth explanation for why he is no longer spinning galleries off to their own page, versus the 'I was being silly about the limits' BS that he did give, perhaps some players WOULD be more understanding.

You clearly believe that these changes will:

1. go smoothly
2. actually fix the errors as promised
3. the limits will be gone over quickly and regularly by staff

And that's great.

Some of the rest of us are still thinking about how not-so-smoothly Luminaire went... How we were told the new Cloud servers would be the fix-all we needed even though it almost seemed to make matters worse. And I don't think it's right for anyone to act like people are wrong for remembering Subeta's history when they think about what staff is about to undertake.

: Thank you for making a better point than I could have.

The commitment a business owner makes to his clients is not comparable to a child's wish to be an astronaut. Subeta regularly makes commitments that last longer than ten months. (Example in point: if you redeem a 12 Month Gold Account Medal, you should be able to expect that Subeta will honor it for the full twelve months.) This commitment should be no different.

My comparison doesn't belittle another user though, caling something "dumb" does.

I do think he should address it, I don't think he has yet and I know he's aware of what he said. I agree with you here. I don't think Keith always replies to what he should and sometimes I don't agree with how he states things. I don't think we can really change that though. Maybe he will address it once the changes get pushed, I don't know. It would probably do wonders resolving some of the negative sentiments going on right now.

1. I hope they do
2. Again I hope, I expect some errors still but less frequent
3. Initially yes I do. On down the road probably not as diligently, but when users make a fuss about it, perhaps.

I do think the amazon servers probably made things worse. Lumi was a series of mistakes that eventually were cleared up. I'm not expecting perfection though, as long as they do benefit the site in the near future.

And I am backtracking but...

This is more of the mixed messages that frustrate players.

there is a difference between calling a person dumb and saying that the comparison a person made was dumb. I apologize if my comment offended you personally though.

What the current foundation of Subeta is doing right now:

What this new system is doing:

Keith gives silly simple answers because more often than not any in-depth technical answer about coding would not be understood by roughly 90% of the site's userbase. Keith is only human, just like the rest of us, and certainly not clairvoyant.

You want Subeta to work properly, but you are resisting the repair of a very important cog in the machine. If the cog cannot be properly fixed, the machine still will not function properly.

I take it as they knew shop limits were coming. Maybe not so much gallery limits.

Eh, slightly but you're still saying that I said something dumb, and it's hard to not take it as you're calling me dumb. You can easily say the comparison is bad, inaccurate etc, but calling it dumb or stupid is demeaning to the person who made the statement.

Do you feel weird at all that you made a petition for an internet game's inventory system on a platform mainly used for political and social reform, usually regarding human rights? I would.

I also severely doubt the staff is ignoring the complaints going on here. Give it time and don't be afraid of change. Especially change that's for the site's overall stability in the long run. It'll be awkward and a little irritating to shuffle things around, but we'll adjust.

: Change.org is used for a lot of things -- the political petitions are the ones that get the most attention, but there's an established precedent for using the site to put pressure on gaming sites.

Here, for example, is a petition to Electronic Arts to continue one of the free games which it shut down, and here's a petition to have the video game Bioshock released in a Playstation 4 version.

So, no, I don't feel weird. I remain committed to the idea that a win-win solution is possible: one which allows players to continue to display large galleries (possibly in a different format than the existing galleries) and which also relieves traffic on the servers. Keith had something in mind when he said galleries would be "spun off into separate pages" back in June; let's explore that idea before abandoning it.

I agree with arixen and speiro and all the others who are giving subeta and a chance to show us what will happen. Remember, subeta is nothing without its users and I know keith and his staff really do want us to come back here, over and over.

So, I am reserving judgement and waiting. I also don't want to sign my name on an offsite petition.

Thank you and your beautiful words. Especially this part: "I really love Subeta. The people here - both users and staff - are wonderful and the inclusive environment truly makes this a unique and special place. I am hoping that, going forward, this issue gets addressed in a way that helps bring people together so that we all can continue to enjoy the many pleasures of Subeta."

It's not terribly fair to keep bringing up something said last summer. Obviously circumstances have changed. We're still very much in the early stages of this, and staff has been consistently reminding us that the limits will increase -- after they can collect some testing data of the new system in action, with relatively low limits in place.

Who knows what will happen -- maybe the gallery limits will be large enough to accommodate 99% of users, and the rest can make use of their pet treasures and vaults. Maybe months down the line we'll get a separate gallery system that isn't touched by the shop search. We need a solution to the 502/504 errors now though. The Subeta staff does care a lot about their userbase -- but keep in mind that these 502/504 errors are rendering the site nonfunctional for all users, not just those with huge galleries.

Okay everybody - please take a deep breath. I posted here originally because it seemed that, despite strong feelings on both sides, people were trying to be reasonable. Now it seems that things are getting a bit out of hand.

- you are usually the voice of reason, and I understand that using words with certain connotations, like "dumb" is a poor choice - especially when feelings run this high. To be fair however, at least to me, your comment about firemen and astronauts also sounded belittling the way it was phrased. And it is truly a poor comparison. Users do have a right to expect business owners to mean what they say and to stand behind it. While it is true that mistakes happen and the future can't be fully predicted, business owners can and should be held accountable. And users who feel that hasn't been/isn't happening are right to want their concerns addressed. I do think you are right to say that more day to day communication would probably have helped with this trust issue and would certainly be a good thing going forward.

That said, I truly admire Keith for standing up and saying he made a mistake and that things just have to change in this case. And is absolutely correct to point out that (especially with a small staff like Subeta) staff can not be expected to answer each user individually. They all have jobs to do besides talking to us. When something major happens they are already overloaded just trying to work on it. Time spent posting is time not spent fixing whatever the problem is (or working on the project, or drawing new art, etc - day to day). Personally, I feel that Subeta staff does make a huge effort to communicate with users - more than anywhere else I've ever seen.

But is correct that communication doesn't mean anything without trust. This is something that, unfortunately, can't be fixed going backwards, but only for the future. Meanwhile, those users who can't/don't feel optimistic deserve the same respect as anyone else. They have legitimate concerns. When those concerns are expressed they should be taken seriously, and addressed respectfully. And once this crisis has passed, those trust issues really need to be worked on somehow. That will take some work and some forgetting/forgiving of the past on both sides.

At least part of the problem in my opinion is that there needs to be someone who understands both the staff and the user perspective and facilitates communication between them. Although, again in my opinion, Subeta staff is usually far better at explaining things than I've seen elsewhere. That does not mean that there is not room for improvement.

And some solution does need to eventually be found for those who have large collections that they have spent so much time and love putting together. I think the word limit is scary (and with reason given those starting numbers). Maybe it will help to understand that, despite what anyone said before, galleries are now and always have been limited. It is not possible for them to exist on a computer without having some limit. The limits have been very large and most users (apparently not all) never ran into them. Those very large limits will probably have to be cut even after the coding change. If the site keeps releasing items, it is probably not going to be realistic to think that it will be able to handle a gallery containing every item ever released on Subeta over multiple years. But I think the small testing limits are scaring users into thinking that galleries will not be usable at all, and that is probably not realistic either. As usual in things of this sort, the ultimate truth is probably somewhere in middle.

I'm excited because the code (and database) are new and my programming background leads me to believe that new code will indeed be faster, better organized, more reliable, etc. Even well written software can become old and unreliable over time as new things are added, bugs are fixed, etc. However, new code also means that the staff can't tell us for sure what limits can be handled until after testing under load. Which means testing while lots of us are using it. So I do feel optimistic that limits can and will go up considerably, but nobody really knows for sure yet. Since the old code is at the point where it is taking down the whole site, this change has to be made and made now, but I do think that after the new code is live, limits need to be quickly addressed and, if necessary, the issue of separating shops and galleries needs to be revisited. Users really do have a point when they say that galleries should not have to be kept artificially limited to avoid system load from things like shop search and questing when that isn't what galleries are for.

I know we all use Subeta differently and have our own perspectives and priorities on what is important. That is part of what makes Subeta a place where we all want to be.

- thanks for the kind words they were much appreciated.