I understand why some users are withholding judgment regarding the new shops and galleries. The way that I see it is if users don't participate in voicing their opinion right now then it will be too late to do so after the change. Once the change happens, i highly doubt opinions will matter as much as they can now prior to the launch.

At least for now this petition sets things in motion. Perhaps it will be signed more heavily/utilized after the change...who knows.

I just strongly believe that once the launch happens, staff will be less likely to change anything and move on to other matters.

I understand this petition and what it entails, but currently until this is actually in place I am going to try to hold my full judgement. Does this make me happy as a person who likes to collect a little bit of everything while she can and has 17k in unique items (which isn't much compared to others)? No because if they keep these limits, I will have 5 galleries at 1k each and then 1 shop. Where are my other 12k items going to go?

Subeta is trying to change and run smoother cus as users we have ALL been complaining forever about the 502's and 504's we constantly get. So they are thinking that this change will be helpful. I understand that. They are trying to fix one of users main complains. Unfortunately it created a new one.

I think they are rushing this out a bit tho and perhaps should have opened a discussion BEFORE creating and testing. But I shall wait and see how this plays out.

We have places on-site to voice our opinions, and many of us already have. A signature on an off-site petition doesn't seem like the best way to get a message across? Aside from that, I just don't want personal information out there so I wouldn't sign the petition even if I thought it was a good idea. :P

But hey, power to you.

Count me in!

Signed.

Petition signed ..... but will anyone take notice ?

I have been hesitant to voice any opinions due to the firestorm going on over the shop/gallery change, but people on this thread seem to be trying to speak reasonably so here goes:

First of all, I completely agree with Speiro that giving out personal information on another site can be dangerous and may not be the best way to voice any opinions.

Second, I agree that galleries should ultimately be much bigger and may need to be separated from shops which would allow larger (although probably not unlimited) galleries to be made available. There are lots and lots of interesting items on this site, including ones that have no use (like those in the "other" category) except to look at, read the item description, admire the art, and otherwise enjoy just for themselves. Also more items are released frequently so it makes sense to me to have a way to display, share and enjoy them. Users do different things on Subeta, and there are obviously many to whom galleries are very important.

That said, I have a background in programming (and database) and users do need to understand that it is not just the number of items on the whole site that is the problem. It is the old outdated way that the shop/gallery database was implemented that seems to be the problem from what I have read posted by staff and that simply can't be ignored. It can't be fixed by buying more/better/faster servers. Items in the vault are not the same because it is accessing the database to do things that causes the problem and things in the vault aren't part of that database. This is why eventually separating shops and galleries would allow larger galleries also not to be part of the problem.

From what staff has said, I gather that patching/repairing the old code just isn't feasible and new code is needed. So no matter what, where or how much users say, the new code simply has to be done or the site just won't function. My guess (emphasize GUESS) is that there is just too much code to produce too quickly to separate shops and galleries right now. However, I do agree that more, more frequent, better and earlier communication from the staff was needed here. Users are correct that this is a big deal and I can see that staff does understand that, but I can also see where it is not obvious to everyone. Maybe a user relations staff person/volunteer would be a good idea going forward since this seems to be one of the (in my opinion few) places where Subeta really needs to do a better job.

It also needs to be said that Subeta has one of the most supportive staffs around. Users are heard (even though the communication issue sometimes makes that hard to see) and responded to in many ways. One quick example - I had my account hacked on another pet site, made a report, self-froze and waited SEVERAL MONTHS just for a response that said my report had been seen and would EVENTUALLY be attended to. That was the site standard and happened to a very large number of users on a regular basis. A ticket made out on Subeta for anything, no matter how trivial, is responded to within a day. Truly amazing. Personally, I think that staff deserves much more support and recognition for all the things they get very right and for the inclusive environment they have created here.

I have a few suggestions. For gallery owners who love their galleries, I would suggest taking advantage of the fact that you can just leave your current gallery as is for now. Let the change happen, see where new limits are set. This will only help if staff and users then communicate with each other about whether galleries still need to be made separate, or whether they can be supported at a reasonable size with the new code. Which leads me to my suggestion for staff. I would like to see some quick feedback to all users (maybe add to your news post) talking about galleries - first acknowledging how important they are to users, then discussing the size limits you would like to see for them in future, the approximate time frame and whether you are still considering completely separating them from shops as a separate programming project. I would also like to see some mention of staff thoughts about other issues users have brought up such as the economy, restocking, item availability for quests, ... . Users need to see that staff has seen and is thinking about these things. I know that Subeta is a small site with limited staff. When a crisis does occur you are busy trying to actually fix it, which makes it even harder to spend time communicating with users - but that is exactly when users most need to have two-way communication.

So going forward, I again suggest a person (or persons) whose job it is to talk with users, whether staff or volunteers. Whoever fills the position would need access to staff, of course, but they could spend the time reading the news comments and forum threads and condense user feedback to the staff, then put staff responses back in various places. Simply having a quick official response would help to calm things down. I have sometimes seen staff say, we hear you but we don't have anything new to add so we are waiting until we do. In my opinion, especially at times like these, that is not the best approach to user communication. Users really do need to be REPEATEDLY told that someone is listening and doing their best to respond. Most users won't take the time to read through hundreds of news comments and I have seen it mentioned that many don't use the forums, so new comments/posts need to be made frequently. A busy staff doesn't have the time to do that, but a user interaction person would.

I really love Subeta. The people here - both users and staff - are wonderful and the inclusive environment truly makes this a unique and special place. I am hoping that, going forward, this issue gets addressed in a way that helps bring people together so that we all can continue to enjoy the many pleasures of Subeta.

- I couldn't have said it better. I 100% agree with everything you said, the suggestions you made, and the reasons behind it all. Bravo! :D

I am nervous, and anxious about these changes. I'm worried 'my' Subeta experience will be forever changed. BUT...we really need to wait and see where the limits will end up, and what the gallery situation will be before making a judgement.

I really, really hope Keith might consider hiring a 'user interaction' staff/minimod member, that is SUCH a good idea!!

(p.s. going offsite is not a great idea..I once signed a petition on that site and was bombarded with requests for other petitions to sign o.o)

I'm with Speiro on this one. As much as I would like to sign the petition,I won't for a couple of reasons.For one,bad experience especially with Neo and Gaia.Two,they didn't work and were ignored.Three,I refuse to put up with any problems like I did with certain stupid fucktards last year.

There are toxic assholes who would love nothing more than to start bullshit drama to bully and harass offsite.Worse yet,certain users love to make themselves look like they're psychic Sylvia Brown,and play pin the anon post on users they personally don't like.Especially on that blog.

And I would rather keep any offsite accounts as completely separate entities from Subeta.

I've kind of refrained from speaking of anything about the shop/gallery discourse because I don't use galleries at all so I guess my opinion will be a little skewed!

I've always thought the functionality of the site came first so I don't really mind the change much, as this is a really outdated piece of code that's causing a clog in the database, and again, I really do care for the site functioning.

I can understand where people are coming from and I agree the change may be too much too quick, especially since it's such a drastic change for years of collecting and spending real money on the site for that collection. I get you may be upset not to show it off. I've always been one for the wardrobe (most everything I buy goes to my wardrobe). If wardrobe limitations were set, I'd be upset too, but I think we also may be too quick to judge in this scenario; staff said that limits would rise in the gallery after new shops and galleries are 1st implemented and I feel like that's something that is being ignored.

That being said, I do agree with the fact that shops and galleries should be separated, but because galleries and shops are so integrated with each other that this change will take time and will probably have to take place gradually after the shop/gallery rework.

Also a PR admin would totally be a wonderful idea going forward and I hope the staff take this idea and roll with it.

I wrote my first name and put the first initial of my last name. I put what city i live in for my address and my zip code for the line below. The email i used is one that is designed for this kind of purpose and not my main email. I know how those sites can be at times.

If you or anyone else feel that it negates my signing of the petition because of the lack of my info then all i'd say to that is at least i tried (my teacher mentality is showing). xD

You can read my ping to Oh I dislike Subeta speaks...or whatever it might be called. That site is for those too afraid to say anything to the users they target.

Pleeeease stop pinging me to this. I don't support this petition.

for the win. This is a coding issue. Period. Simply getting better servers right now would be like fixing a broken water-main pipe with duct tape and calling it good. It may look fixed but it will still blow up in your face when you turn the water back on. This is exactly what was being done in the past and it obviously hasn't been working. This is a complete re-code of the shop system to make it compatible with those servers everyone keeps crying for.

Staff have repeatedly said they expect to be significantly raising the limits for the new shops and that they started low specifically for the testing while responding to suggestions and questions. (Check out the Admin Posts Feed linked on the news page. This is literally why this feed exists. So we can see what the admins are posting in the forums.) If they had started out with a 50,000 item limit then had to lower it to 15,000 because the system couldn't handle it yet you would be just as upset if not more so.

Your stuff is not going to just vanish when they disable the old system. You can still access your own old galleries and shops. There's no need to move anything around right now. Wait until limits have been raised and the system has stabilized some.

This is a stepping stone in the site-wide re-code we've all been waiting for.

Hello! What you have described above is a lot of what I do, at least in the capacity of the Problems and Bugs forum. I go through (with Reya) the boards, report the bugs that come through that are really bugs and get staff to look at them. We post on those reports the information that users give us and condense it. And when it is fixed, we usually post to the users and check off that one as fixed. We even try and check in on older boards to see if things are still happening. The problem with that is that no matter how many times I say things, I am only a minimod. There will be a board that I have posted on saying that I have reported an issue and people will still complain that there has been no staff response. I have even been told that because I am a MM and not staff, that no one has to listen to me. And as for staff, if a user is angry, they aren't going to even listen to staff and this issue has shown it. A lot of people are discussing it nicely but there are some that are not so nice. So I am not sure that would work and I am 99.9% sure that it would not work with a volunteer. It is a nice thought though!

And unless gateway errors keep me offline, I'll be here on the 15th as well. I've already paid for my GA so what do they care if I don't play?

Although I dislike the idea of those hard limitations very much, I absolutely agree with . Everything said in their post was absolutely right.

Also in the past, there have been many changes that first created issues but made the site better in the end. Like the new pet slot system or the new wardrobe (even if there are still things to fix). I'll just give the staff here the trust they deserve and wait how things turn out.

Although one can realize nearly anything on a site when programming, I'm aware how hard it is to implement new code into old and considering what kind of site this is I'm grateful for all the efforts made. Just remember: the general use of this site IS free! And I doubt it creates much profit or the staff is really paid. Considering this we should at least be patient when it comes to new stuff and give staff a chance.

The idea of creating petitions to enforce my opinion in this matter just seems wrong to me. I'd feel ungrateful if I'd sign.

But still I'd wish there would have been more time before this happened and it was properly announced with more time to adjust and discuss. It seemed to come all of a sudden. Yes it had been mentioned it would come eventually but right now I feel just overwhelmed by the idea and have the feeling it's all a rush. Also I'd wish staff would mediate better concerning this topic and participate in the discussion. On the other site I can understand that they don't want to put oil in the fire and just give important information.

- thank you for the feedback. I'm sad to hear that your voice as a minimod is not respected and appreciated as much as it should be (goes back to my point above that users should realize what a great job is being done and be much more supportive). I understand that some users may be so angry that they won't listen to anyone (including staff). Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I still think that better, earlier and more frequent communication would be responded to positively by the majority of users and would help going forward. It might take some time, but if users consistently see that from staff then they would respond in kind. Given your experience, I would be interested to hear any further thoughts you have on what might work. Thanks again for all the work you, Reya and other staff do for us.

- you also make some good points.

But say you -- and several hundred other people -- have used the on-site places to voice their opinion, and the trainwreck is still happening? Maybe the importance of the message is being misunderstood because it's being expressed through the same old channels that all other feedback uses. Doesn't it make sense to try something different that might communicate the seriousness with which we view this issue?

Your other point, about user privacy, is well-taken, though. I have read through change.org's privacy policy, and -- while I wish it were stronger -- it's comparable to the privacy policies at Paypal and Stripe, to whom Subeta users reveal far more sensitive personal information on a regular basis. Still, everyone has to choose for themselves when and where to reveal their identities.

I could only give thoughts based on my experience and it doesn't quite fit the situation. I could say that it is a two way road and if users want us to help, they have to be specific. Because with P&B that works. The programmers can't fix bugs if they don't know the problem and sometimes users are vague with what is happening.

That is not the case here. I think the main problem with this issue is that users are not listening. And before anyone gets mad, just listen :p That first post about the revamp--I'd be interested to know how many people actually read or cared about anything after the 3rd paragraph. A lot of people seem to be stopping there because of limits. Staff has repeatedly and in many different spots said that this is NOT the forever limit. This is the testing phase. I know that is a scary word on here--testing. But you always have to test loads in order to make sure things work. Flight Rising does it and I am sure other sites do it. But users are concentrating on that word. LIMITS!!! How embarassed are people going to be if they get all up in arms about this and the limits are 5k for regular users and 10k for GAs? Does that mean I can my 300,000 unique items in the gallery? No, but that is a lot more than is being tested. Barring newer users, we knew limits were coming so we should not be surprised.

As for the dreaded quote that keeps coming up--that galleries will never be limitless. Things change. Maybe at the time, they thought it was feasible under the old coding. Well the old coding doesn't work. I'd much rather have a smaller gallery and a working site. What is the point of having all these items if the site breaks when I try and view them? These shops and galleries are the reason for all the 502 and 504 errors. Hoarding can be fun (I have one) but if it is killing the site then that is no longer fun. People are asking for galleries to be made separate. Again, things change. They may be in the future.

(And thank you for the kind words. I really don't do any of this for thanks or praise. I do it because I love this site and I love the staff and the users and I believe that it will get better...I like being a part of that.)

- communication should absolutely be a two way road. However, it is important to understand that sometimes users can't be more specific - especially with P&B. Not all users have a programming background or understand what is needed to find/fix a bug. Not everyone understands the process of development or system testing on a big, complex system. They can only tell you what they see and know. And while I understand that Subeta is small and can't really load test without users, not all users really understand that process or why it is important, so it makes sense (from their perspective) that they are impatient that things show up and don't work. That said users (especially those not familiar with coding, testing and bug fixing) need to be more aware that some of these things are much harder than they think. They need to be know that just because they see a bug once doesn't mean the programmer can even find it and that, once found, some things can be almost impossible to change. They also need to be aware that software development takes time and almost no big project is bug free. Finally they need to understand that, in real life, there is no such thing as unlimited. The limits can start out very big, so you don't notice they are there, but there is a limit nonetheless. (Does anyone remember Y2K where computers all over the world needed to be reprogrammed to understand years starting with 2 - 2000, 2001, ... ? That was a limit problem.)

I am very excited to see Keith talking about code review and user experience - that should be very helpful going forward. Hopefully all of us who love Subeta can learn to communicate better with each other and make the process of adding/fixing new things easier for everyone.