I don't even sign petitions for real life political things that actually matter. No one is in any way obligated to do what you ask because you've collected a list of names, no matter how many people sign it.

Regardless, I'm also not going to pass judgement until we see how it turns out in the end. Every concrete detail I know about this change is one I'm in full support of and excited to see implemented. A proper recode which is going to stop the site's constant errors instead of another quick fix; isn't that what we've always wanted? And the turnaround may be fast, but the sooner this happens, the better. I'd much rather have a quick change with an established timeline, than it all being open-ended and taking months. Having a separate gallery system would be entirely welcome, in time, but it would be best to concentrate on that once the staff's efforts to make sure the new system is firmly established are over and we've dropped the dead weight.

I don't mind making sacrifices if it means the site gets to keep running, because all my items mean nothing if the site collapses.

I'm with you guys. No Subeta on the 15th for me. Hopefully they'll listen.

Haven't read all of your posts yet but you do one of the best jobs communicating around here, it's a shame people don't listen to you as they should. It's probably true people want to see the big red banner though, and a position communicating in all areas of the site should be a staff position, not just a volunteer. You do as good of a job as you can though :)

edit: you're right, users just don't listen to a certain point. hell, some users don't even read the news regularly. a huge huge huge problem with this update is that some users are only seeing the negatives and aren't giving it a chance. I think there's a small disconnect in between staff of different departments. someone should be coordinating between the programmers, the artists, the item admins, and the other people to know exactly what is going on. I don't know for certain since I am on the outside, but I feel like there's not one person who knows exactly what is going on. even if they don't know in detail, someone should be aware of everything that goes on behind the scenes, and this same person should also be willing to relay that to users as much as they can.

Very well thought out response :) -again I have more to read on this thread, just woke up and I need to get ready

I agree with you completely

Staff members do talk to each other. A LOT. Especially since this update. And there are actually a lot of admin posts that anyone can see regarding this change. The first page of the admin posts alone is over half full of responses to the shops and galleries. I am not sure how much more can be said. There is a FAQs board to explain things and they post updates and responses to questions about possibilities for change. I even saw Keith's post about mass moving items which is exciting. But they can't answer every single post separately. Not if anyone wants anything done. Twenty minutes spent by a programmer answering questions is twenty minutes they could have spent finalizing everything. Artists are not there to answer programming questions and UAs still have to answer tickets.

I dunno...I think that all this angry energy could be put into feedback. Not "OMG CHANGE THIS" feedback. More like the feedback happening on the suggestions board like, why don't we have a day per month where you can feed a pet as much as you can. It gets you a gourmand achievement AND it clears out space. Or make minions a possible collection like plushies and beanbags. Have a "toys pet has played with" list like the books read or foods eaten. There are so many ways to make this work and be easier. Just step back and don't worry about that limit word.

Communication is meaningless if staff tells us something and then they turn around a few months later and does the opposite.

I just get an impression that there's not one person in charge of dealing with users, so one person can't answer all the nontechnical questions that get asked. from what I've seen, does most of the user-to-staff communication as long as it's not technical, in which case or take over. but (or someone else they give that responsibility, you even since this is actually your area of responsibility) should be included on what is currently being worked on with more specifics. I've asked her numerous times about things and gotten an "I don't know" enough to make me think there isn't a central person in charge. If there is, maybe just get more staff involved with talking to the users. I'm not really talking about this issue, more on a day to day basis when things are normal. When things like this pop up and draw so much attention, staff is usually pretty good about addressing things. When it's not as big of an issue, it can be days before something is addressed.

I agree with you though, a programmer shouldn't need to answer every question, technical answers shouldn't always be necessary because 99% of users don't know what is being said anyway, the FAQs board and admin posts are underutilized by the users and they probably haven't been fully read by the vast majority of people. There's a lot of jaded users who just don't have faith in staff, and I think that's where the negative energy is coming from. They don't believe staff will follow through in what they say they'll do, which they should at least give it a chance first. Sure they can say "we've given it a chance before" but nothing has even happened yet other than a partially rolled out thing that hasn't really changed anything. I get an impression that some users don't feel like they're being listened to because Keith has made a stand saying this needs to happen and isn't willing to compromise, but they don't understand that he's not doing this to spite them, but to make the site more reliable. I am seeing a lot of the stages of grief in users - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and ultimately acceptance.

Some of the suggestions are good, but the suggestions are almost exclusively item sinks. I don't understand the emphasis on item sinks. Sure we're giving some useless items some use, but we're rewarding hoarders for hoarding again, and we're inflating more items. Some suggestions are bargaining with the limits which doesn't help because the limits I feel are going to be set as high as the programmers feel will be healthy for the site. I expect the toys played with list will be rolled out any day now, which is good one one hand but I find it annoying that you can't play with a pet and have a minion.

I understand if people want to not be here on the 15th or whatever, but I dislike the way is framing things. 'the trainwreck is still happening' 'no agreement to scuttle, or at least delay, this awful plan', etc. Look, there are legitimate reasons to be upset about gallery limits, but a) you can still access your old gallery. I'm keeping my items in there until I get a better idea of limit raising. b) This change is super necessary for making the site run smoother for everyone, but I'm getting the impression some people think keeping their galleries exactly the same is more important than fixing all the errors the site has been getting.

When people point out why this isn't an awful plan, we're met with 'Keith broke a promise' 'oh sure they promised to raise gallery limits but what if they don't raise gallery limits' and 'site communication is so bad!' For point a, Keith did break a promise, but not on a whim, not for no reason, and not without explanation. They absolutely will raise gallery limits, it's silly to scaremonger when the change hasn't even happened yet. And site communication is actually pretty good!

I do agree that the users of the site deserve a certain quality of experience if we're going to stick around. A lot of subeta is free, but I'm sure most of us have sunk a lot of time into it, if not actual money. However, I think this change is going to improve the quality of experience, and having people trying to pressure the staff into stopping the change is actually really upsetting to me, because it's telling me that my experience doesn't matter.

The day to day things do have a level of importance and they do sometimes get lost. But that is not really the point of this board.

I guess I will just have to leave it at this--we are all going to have to wait and see how this turns out. I am personally excited for the change and I have a hoard gallery. Maybe it isn't as big as some but if I can play the site without 502s and 504s again then I think it is a great change.

I just hope that the idea behind the petition and the whole thought of it makes enough waves around here that they will consider significantly increasing the limits.

I voiced my opinions in the news posts, I have voiced my opinion in the threads that were linked on the news posts, and i have even contributed some ideas within said news threads. This thread right here is just one more place for me to voice my personal opinion.

I know it's not the point of the board, but I think it would help ease things between staff and certain users if they felt like the smaller issues were addressed as well. Perhaps people would be more forgiving, more trusting, and more understanding if the communication was around every day. I don't think this is too bad for myself, I talk to more than most users do probably, but this is a general sentiment from what I have seen around the site. I do a lot of forum reading, even if I don't post.

We do have to wait to see how this turns out. I am also excited, I thought it was a good idea since the beginning (check the news comments, my very first post was in support, other posts were just sarcastic comments to get some likes), even if I thought the initial limits were low. I don't have a hoard gallery though, so I think you being someone with one who is in support of this is great. There is some level of selfishness that people are not wanting to let go of their own personal gallery and would rather deal with 502s/504s for everybody on the site, not just them.

Isn't that the issue? I understand that there's a promise that after testing, the limits will be raised -- but there was also a promise that there wouldn't be limits at all for galleries. If we can't believe the earlier promise, then why should we believe the later one?

: Thanks for your feedback. I agree that the framing of an issue is important, and I chose words that I believe are strong, but fair. I have already acknowledged that it's fair to expect changes to take place here -- but I believe that a creative solution exists that will ease server load without breaking existing promises, and the petition includes a commitment to "work constructively" towards that solution.

Okay. But what if no creative solution exists? What if this is the best solution they could come up with? Keith shouldn't have made the earlier promise if he wasn't sure he could keep it, but this isn't about that, this is about the site for everyone.

one "promise" was ~10 months ago, one was a few days ago. I think they will hold the promise made a few days ago. you probably said you were going to be a fireman or an astronaut when you were a kid. why are you not a fireman or an astronaut now?

The site is a lot different now than it was back then. That statement was based on the site stability at that moment. Yes, it could have said, "we don't forsee that galleries will be limited," but no one could have predicted this. You don't have to even move anything now. It is at your own pace...and your pace could be to wait until the limits are raised. It just won't be viewable by others. Your items are still there...just think of it as a vault.

: Seriously? Okay, I'll answer that:

When I was a kid, I thought Santa Claus was real. I did not have a realistic understanding of how the world worked, of what my future strengths and weaknesses would be, or that I would later be diagnosed with a neurological disease that would disqualify me from becoming a fireman or an astronaut.

If you're saying that Keith did not have a realistic understanding of how shops affected server load ten months ago, you may be right, but comparing his state of mind at that time to the mind of a child as an excuse for him going back on his word is a pretty flimsy bit of reasoning. You're better than that.

So you're saying your previous self didn't understand how things would be in the future? and that things changed based on the current circumstances? but if you could have been a firefighter or an astronaut at that very instant, you would have been?

I'm just saying that things changed because no one knows how things will be in the future. Ever made plans with a friend then something comes up last minute and you had to cancel? or had that happen to you? I wouldn't think the friend is a terrible person because they prioritized something else over me. I don't know you well enough to draw any other comparison, but kids generally say things like they want to be an astronaut or firefighter, and they mean it at the time. I wanted to be a baker. I could guess that you could relate to that. I think you understand my point though, I'm not saying that 10 months ago Keith was a child, I'm just drawing a parallel because things change. His most recent promise of limits raising should be followed through. There's no reason even being hinted at that it won't be. All of the doubts going around about the limits not getting raised is cynicism by jaded users, nothing more. a little trust even if you feel like it isn't completely deserved may go a long way. if limits don't get raised, then you have a reason to be angry. hell, I'd even be angry if limits don't get raised, they're ridiculously low, but I believe that they won't remain that way.

What a child says they will be when they grow up is NOTHING like a business owner saying one thing and doing another. For one is a grown man who no longer gets to play the 'I am a dumb kid that doesn't know better' excuse. Secondly, a child setting a lofty goal for their adults years has no impact on other people. If anything it may impact their family and that is all. being wishy washy about what his plans for Subeta are impacts us all as players.

A child... even an average person changing their mind can NOT fairly be compared to business owner stating one thing and then doing another.

And honestly, anyone acting like players should wait and see before they get angry are truly missing the entire reason many users are so upset.

Thanks for calling my statement dumb, I'm sure that criticism is protected by the community guidelines. I used it as an example, not an identical situation. There's a complete lack of empathy from users. The same accountability isn't taken by themselves when they've done similar things in the past. Sure Keith probably shouldn't have said that if he wasn't sure it was going to play out like this, but it happened. Now it's different, so tough. Sometimes you have to accept that an owner of a business can say something and when they say it, they're just wrong. They may not be wrong at the time, but in the future they're wrong. If you're going to get so caught up on that one statement, you won't be happy no matter what.

I'd like to know why staff is ignoring a lot of posts in that Site feedback thread about all this. I'd like to know why they're being selective as to whom they respond. I'd like to know why they're only responding to people who are not upset about everything. I'd like to know why so many promises are being either unfulfilled or broken or just not dealt with. It's getting almost as bad as a federal government with promises being unfulfilled, broken, changed or otherwise modified to only the politicians' liking instead of what may be best for the entire nation.

Big difference between fantasy dreams as a kid (which are years ago) and more realistic promises made only 10 months ago, Kevin. Saying one thing just 10 months ago and then revoking it just shows players to have a huge lack of distrust in staff. It's now how a business should be run. It's the cop-out method that staff is using and not wanting to see the forest for the trees.

I am so with you there, honey >_<

So why isn't this happening?!? Please...split the two up! If you want to save your user base, please split the two up! If the whole site needs to be changed, overhauled and re-coded/scripted so that users can have their unlimited unique items in shops so that themed galleries can exist on site, then please do so! I'm far, far past caring about what the site looks like and how it functions just as long as the small fortune that I've implemented into my galleries, and others into their own galleries, and the money spent on buying up to 10 shops/galleries is respected! A lot of people invested a TON of time, effort and even actual real currency into their galleries. Please respect these investments! Please don't turn a blind eye to any of this. Ignoring all of these investments would be as bad as when the CW section of the Pawn Shop was cleared! Clearing that section was literally throwing away countless amounts of Real Money. Ignoring all of these investments into these galleries would literally put it right up there with clearing all the CWs out of the Pawn; throwing people's time, effort and money (virtual and real) into the rubbish bin like a rotten piece of fruit. Not only would you be throwing everyone's time, effort and money away, but you'd be showing that you don't really care about how all users feel; only some of them.

Please...please don't do this to users. Please help us restore our faith in the staff who made the site so good. Please leave our galleries untouched and on the current script/code/table/whatever and just change the way shops are. Please keep our galleries as is. Please help bring happiness back into the site instead of uproar. Please run this business right and listen to the customers, paying and non. Please don't pull a Neopets where staff couldn't care if players are happy or not as long as they get their monetary support.