I came back because I was curious as to what was happening. The good thing is I'm learning which releasers I would slot from and who I would avoid.

The problem with privates and how they're handled now is it seems like there's no rhyme or reason to make them private. For example, there's a wig that's in teal and hot pink that are public. Not many people use these colors and it's very niche. But then, the releaser decides to make the same wigs except in black and brunette. These two wigs are private.

People love the style of the wig, but want the natural hair colors, since they're much more versatile and appealing. The releaser says the teal and hot pink ones are available for everyone, but who wants them? Nearly no one. Who wants the natural colors? Nearly everyone.

This is my problem with privates. It's like releasers purposefully make the most appealing colors private. This comes off as elitist and unwelcoming.

The way the business is being held now is why it's hard for releasers to fill slots. Like I've said before, the demands have changed. If you're not attracting new customers, what happens once the old ones leave? You're out of business.

This is severely flawed logic. You can't expect customers to be the ones to make your business attractive. The burden of initial advertising, appearances, and hospitality is on the business. The customers see the business as a great place to shop, and then the customers spread the word. Whether the business is successful or not is ultimately up to the business.

I don't mind privates if it's something like a pet or some item that's very personal to you or a friend. This doesn't affect the market. What does affect it are the large amounts of privates that are private for no sound reason. I would think that making more items public, especially the highly desired privates, would bring more money to the releaser and, ultimately, Subeta.

The CW market was never meant to happen, though. CWs were designed to be private items made exclusively for friends. The staff will confirm this.

So again, if someone spends the money/time on an item, they have every right to do with it what they want. It's not elitist if they decide they just want these wigs kept to friends. It's THEIR money/time. Not yours. They're under no obligation to make anything public, and I'm sure most releasers that are seeing this board aren't taking too kindly to this notion that they're somehow bad for doing what they want with something they paid for/worked on.

If you don't like how that releaser distributes their items, don't slot on their CWs. If they're consistently releasing privates, it means they have friends to fill those slots and they won't be hurt any by it.

there are plenty of non-private, hospitable public items trying to get slotted so no, it's not flawed logic flawed logic is choosing to focus on your example of private natural colors of wigs, like that's really specific? and no, it's not customers who make the business attractive, but when the cw is public and it's nicely presented and yet it has problems slotting, why is that when I've seen some people complain about privates claiming cws would be better off if the boards catered to their perceived idea of needs?

because the truth is ugly and it's simply that some people are angry about the private cws in demand they learn to loathe the entire cw market and generalize so yeah, shame on them for generalizing and assuming

- But, the market did change. This is what needs to be considered, not what it once was. And, considering that the extensive amount of private CWs is a major deterrent for people who are interested in CWs, the current state of privates needs to be looked into.

You don't have to change how you do things. But, remember that not adapting to the market demand typically leads to a business failing.

- Another ugly truth is first impressions are important in a business. A lot of people don't give second chances when they have a bad experience.

My example is pulling from complaints from myself and others... I didn't have a specific CW in mind. So is this example: Someone see a beautiful CW. They then find out it's private and they'll never be able to get it. They get discouraged. Then, they see the boards with "PINGED ONLY" and whatnot. Or, they're booted out of a thread because they're not a super special friend. They start to feel they're not welcome and give up on CWs.

The generalization is bad, but it happens often. I've seen some releasers on this thread trying to change the generalization, which is awesome. Their efforts have started to change my perceptions a bit in a positive way.

I want more people to give CWs a chance... There's a lot of wonderful art in the market. This is why I'm being so harsh about private CWs.

Subeta does not officially recognize private CWs, and they're not going to do anything about the private CWs. Because that was the intention of CWs in the first place. It is not up to the staff to control the items that people spend money/time on. It is not their responsibility. Nor is it the obligation of the releasers to cater to people that get this upset over private CWs.

Not your time. Not your money. They get to do what they want with their items, and you don't have to like it but you do have to accept it.

If I painted a picture, and decided to only give out prints of it to friends and not to anybody else, am I still elitist? It's the same concept.

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain all this! It is extremely helpful to a newer player like me interested in getting into the cw world. I have one slight clarification with the following...

Am I correct in understanding we do not pay the releaser directly? That the notification will link you to a place to pay? Without having gone through the process myself I've always assumed that the slotter pays the releaser up front.

As for my feedback on the cw pawn shop closing... I'm disappointed. I was always excited to see what new items were available. I could just as easily use wardrobe to see the cws on site and sort by layer, release, search by name etc. However, more often than not it was disappointing to discover one awesome item after another only to find none for sale. The sorting improvements made to the pawnshop made finding cws enjoyable and easy.

I can understand how the cw pawnshop might cause problems with the cw market. I totally get that.

If the wardrobe could filter by items in cw shops, user shops, or trades that could help those of us who don't have time to sift through trade lists, individual cw shops, or a mountain of cws that may or may not be available. Not to mention that if I can plan how to use an item I'm more likely to buy it.

I'm not going to lie, it was nice to get cws for cheaper in the pawn shop. I know I'd personally spend more if they were cheaper. However, I don't feel that the artists or the releasers should have to take a cut to make that happen. 700csc/$7.00 is a tad too high. I have to know that I'll love it first to pay that much.

Thank you! I just hope it's enough information for people to feel like they're not jumping in the deep end completely blind!

And yes, technically, that is correct.

You pay your CSC to the...let's call it "Subeta CW System". The system will collect CSC from all the individuals required to pay, and once everyone in that batch (10 people) have paid, the item will move into the approval queue.

You never really "hand the money directly" to the releaser, per se. The system holds the CSC until the item is approved (or denied, in which case it will be returned to you) and then distribute profits to the releaser (if any).

And thank you for sharing! I agree that it really does suck that the pawn shop is going. Most of us are waiting to see what kind of changes will happen to hopefully help alleviate the burden of submission costs and alternative solutions that will help with making CWs more accessible with the departure of the pawn shop.

- There is one problem with your argument: all CWs, whether public or private, are property of Agoge, Inc.

Taken from the custom clothing submission page:

Yes, there's this statement as well:

But remember this was years ago when CWs first started. The market has grown to something different since then. And, Subeta has poured more money on CWs over the last two years as stated by , which means how well the CW market does will affect how well Subeta does.

So, in the case of the painting example, you own the painting 100%. You have the rights to the painting. With CWs, Subeta has the rights to them. They just allow users to distribute them however they want. Choosing to release to a closed group for items you don't legally have the rights to can be seen as elitist.

I respect privates and rules surrounding them. But, based on my observations, I feel like something about them needs to be done for the sake of the CW market.

Okay but you're completely ignoring that CWs were supposed to be private. From the get go. That was their intent, that's what the staff designed them for, and 'privates' are just following the intent of the creation.

You can go on and on about how 'the market has changed' but what hasn't changed is what CWs were created for. They were created to be private. That's not going to change. Subeta is not going to do anything about the privates, they have 0 obligation to do anything about the privates, and the releasers have 0 obligation to try to cater to everyone.

I was a buyer long before I was a releaser, when public copies of privates were auctioned off for 10K CSC. I had a problem with that, but never with the privates themselves, because it's somebody else's time and money and I have no right to dictate to them what they can do with it.

Yes, legally, the CWs belong to subeta, but barely. The distribution of them, what rules surround specific items, how many batches are released, that's all up to the user. Subeta lets us do basically whatever we want with our CWs, and I can tell you as a releaser that if I suddenly had a set of rules I was forced to abide by for the item I paid for, well subeta would lose my business. And it would lose the business of a lot of people, too.

So what solutions do we have for "privates" for them to stop being elitist?

I have made a single CW on site, it's private because it's personal to me, and the only copies I have were given away as a contest prize. I would hate to see everyone being able to buy it because "IT BELONGS TO AGOGE". The reason I made the item was for that contest.

Yes, it sucks to see things you want being private, but there isn't a fair solution. People are allowed to do as they wish with their releases, they don't have to allow everyone to slot on them.

We pay for the right to do as we please with these items. While the items themselves belong to Agoge, we're essentially paying for distribution rights.

I agree with you when you say that the perception of private CWs is so elitist that it deters some from trying to enter the market. I also agree that we need to examine the ratio of public: private CWs and see if the amount of private CWs has hurt the market, although this conversation doesn't necessarily have to happen with the Pawn Shop and its closure.

As has been stated on this thread: CW releasers have the right to release their items to whomever. But sticking to a privates-only formula will not attract any new buyers to the market if they believe they can't even stick their toes in , if they believe that public CWs are inadequate in quality to those that are private. At best, the market does not grow, no new opportunities for revenue. At worst, the market shrinks when people within the community drift off as life happens and people outside the community aren't joining.

What do you mean a "privates-only formula"? There are plenty of CWs that are public.

I'm chiming in a little bit out of nowhere, so I'm sorry if a lot of this is just yadda yadda been there done that but!!

I'd easily wager that 5% or less (probably way less!) of on-site CWs are "private"; there used to be only a small handful of users that would have their items be private/exclusive, but as more and more people joined in the market very recently it just became a thing that almost everyone does. It's been a really recent (I say "recent", but I'd estimate over the last ~year or so was a big influx of "private" excitement), and tbh it looks as though it's on its way out, since folks are realizing "oh wait this is cool but also expensive"-- because it SUPER is, unless you have 3259375 friends to fill up batches.

While I know this is a pretty sweeping generalization I'm about to make here, I think a lot of people take private items too personally in that they take it personally that they aren't "eligible" to own them.

I personally really struggle to understand that aspect-- what I can understand is seeing an item you want and finding out it's not easily/readily available, and that being frustrating (esp if you happen to get told "no" over and over again), but there are hundreds upon hundreds of items that aren't private and are readily available. Shops & trades are jam packed with them at this point in time. It makes me feel like the elitism folks sense in the market is a construct rather than what's actually exuded by most users, because as someone who pretty much just lives in the CW market & forums on this site, I can count the number of actual elitist-on-purpose users on one hand-- there are definitely folks that like to be withholding, sure, but that's absolutely the minority of only a few users.

Plus, most private items are special to the user submitting them-- for example, all of my private items are private because I drew them for someone/they're gifts, or they're to do with my characters. And even then tbh my gift items aren't even private-private-- my friends can hella sell those if they wanna, go for it! But I don't see what's elitist about just releasing stuff like that to just-friends. If I was makin' special crimmas cards for my family I wouldn't then also make 10 extra just in case someone who knew my family saw it on the mantle and wanted one.

That's the sense I'm getting from a lot of people too. They're taking privates personal, like it's high school and they're being excluded from the 'popular' group. Which, yes, subeta has cliques. There's going to be cliques anywhere you go, any site you're on, anywhere you work, that's just how the human race works. You can't take every minor exclusion as some personal attack against you.

and

this "private is elitist" makes me uncomfortable. I also release Cws every now and then. I usually release them openly - I have never done anything private - but I tend to limit my Cws. So no I have never done anything unlimited.

Those are BGs/foregrounds/wigs I want for my avatar and if I can find others to fill the slots - great. If not I submit and pay myself.

However - I have done some special CWs (as christmas presents for friends and people who are dear to me on here) Those where never slotted. I submitted the two batches (and payed for them - and then put them under friends christmas trees.) I was sort of sad when I found out others wanted the background, too. I felt bad - and actually thought of requesting a recolor to slot. But then I decided against it, since I really wanted something special. However it's not private, so if one of the people that has this bg (or one oof the matching foregrounds) and decides they'd sell it, it would still be fine for me.

I always feel bad if I only do a one batch and there are two/three people who could not slot as well... I always feel a bit torn, since I am happy if people like what I want for my avatar, but I really do not want to do huge unlimited stuff.

I tend to keep copies that are not wanted and gift them for give aways. That's always fun.

For this year I have decided to pay for a second copy of each of my CWs and keep them and then, when luminaire comes I will put them under the trees of people who have those on their Wl.... That will be fun. But then I thend to do only 4-6 CWs a year anyway...

I wonder how to change the perception that all privates and CW releasers are elitist? I want to find that happy medium in which buyers are comfortable with the CW market and sellers have the freedom to choose what to do with their items.

I mean... as for my presents I wanted them to be for 20 people only. Maybe that makes me elitist XD But in RL not everybody can have everything he/she wants.

giggles my oldest daughter wanted those shoes by Rhianna for christmas... okay we got them, but they were also limited worldwide.... Stayed up til midnight to buy them online as soon as they cam out

This is what I understand with those CWs if I miss a slot - pity for myself - and I've missed bunches of slots I wanted also but then, it's still a game.

I feel bad if I have the feeling I am the reason others are upset. But as long as I am allowed - I will keep on doing a special christmas CW for my friends.

hides

You shouldn't feel bad about it, dear. Sometimes people just miss out on things they want, and that's life. It's not your fault and not your responsibility. It's your right to release as many batches of an item as you want, or as FEW batches as you want.

That is true. People tend to judge when they personally go through a bad experience. I get that. It's natural! I think and 's posts after yours are more eloquent than I can be at the moment. xD

I think it doesn't help how privates tend to be the ones that are more in demand. Not always the case, but a lot of times, they just appeal to more people, and hence there is that perceived but x and y are private and there's a ton of pinged only when it's not necessarily the reality of the situation. :s Like if you join customwear and other public cw groups, you'll find that you're actually drowning in pings. Well, maybe I am exaggerating here a little bit... :P But it is a good chunk of consistent pings. :3

I don't think ALL CAPS does anyone any favors whatever the content of it is, but I'm wondering what could be seen in a positive light since distribution isn't really going to change. Friends only is probably worse than pinged only. But what could be better?

I'm afraid anything still will be seen in a negative light due to excluding someone or some group of people who wanted to slot but couldn't? :s That's why I agree with 's comments on cliques.