Nobody asked you to reorganize CW shops. Like ???? Why the fuck would you assume that's even an option? How did you even come to that conclusion? I mentioned shops, because it was brought up here as a "viable" option for people who don't like to use the forums. It is not, in fact, a viable option as there are no search features, and 90% of the time CW's don't even end up there. Therefore, it is up to YOU to make your board and storefront appealing. And just so we're clear, I don't mean YOU specifically, I mean YOU as in CW releasers. jfc. Considering it's been mentioned more than once, it's very obviously an issue to some.

Again, why would you assume I don't being to any ping groups? Not only have I mentioned how I've had ZERO fucking issues with buying CW's more than once, I'm currently wearing 4 CW's. But just because I personally haven't had issues, doesn't mean I can't see the problems that are legitimate, and can empathize with those who do have difficulties. Like, this ins't that hard to figure out if you'd take time to stop being offended and read everyone's posts. You know, the ones with all the likes to see it's a common problem that many people agree with.

Which brings me to you being so obsessed with thinking that I must have missed out on some ultra rare wig and obviously I'm using my personal experience an example. Just stop, really. You are making yourself look foolish. It's being brought up time and time again because it's a valid point.

I can tell by the comments that have been made around various places that creators prefer to keep their things limited because it creates a sense of urgency to buy said item, making it easier to fill slots. Thus, the cycle keeps going round and round and round. People impulse buy because OMG LIMITED, then regret their decision and pawn. Then your items ends up selling for less than slot price, and we end up here. Rinse and repeat.

There HAS to be a better way, which is what I, and others, have been saying. I have zero issue paying slot price for an item I genuinely want. I have zero issue finding it secondhand somewhere and paying less/more. If I want it, I'll pay for it. But the main problem that has been discussed over and over, is availability. We can't buy said item if it's not in circulation, and you can't sell more copies if we don't know about the items existence until it's too late. This is the main issue at hand, full stop. THIS is what needs to be fixed.

It's so crazy to me that people base their purchases on resale value. Like, I buy it because I want it? Maybe I'm looking at this wrong because I'm the minority and actually want the things for myself? lmao.

Idk if the 1 batch rare business in the beginning made this exclusivity mindset crop up, or if it was the other way around, but it blows. I honestly don't know how to change the CW market, so that people just buy because they want to. Make everything valuable in some way.

I sort of wish from the get-go that the site made it so that CW's were "sold" to the site and just were available that way. Nobody had to run shops, they'd just make an item, the site would buy it, and then distribute as they see fit. But, that'll never happen so we're left with something that has evolved into whatever the hell this is haha.

Yeah, I have no idea if it was the chicken or the egg that caused the exclusivity problem with CWs specifically, but unfortunately it's definitely a problem that exists and I'm not sure there's any way around it. I doubt anyone slots purely on whether or not they feel they'll be able to resell an item, but I'm sure lots of people do take that into account, particularly if they are very active in the sales boards. One of the upsides to the PS being closed, I hope, is that people will be buying and selling CWs on the r200 forums more frequently again, with better sucesss of selling for slot price or a little above maybe, without being undercut by cheaper copies in the pawn. I hope that will encourage more people to be free-er with slotting, with the assurance that they might be able to get a good price for it later.

It would be nice if CWs were more of an automated system like you suggested, but it would have its downsides too. I'm just going to assume that we are fully entrenched in a user-oriented sales system now. I hope we can make some improvements to it. I feel so many aspects of the site are becoming more "hands off," I think it's gotten a little boring for users a bit. I wish we could encourage more community involvement and make it fun for more people! I'm working on an idea for that...but that's off topic, haha.

It escalated quickly, right? I mean back in the days, you sell things unlimited and it was truly working. The hype was there, the demand was strong and the prices were top notch. Sadly, the market is much more money oriented than uh ... enjoyment oriented? (I mean buying an item because you love =/= not because you want to sell it). I do get your point. I've agreed a lot. It's like just ... following because that's how dead the market is.

I really agree on your last point. As much as CW are owned by Agoge, someone (a user) paid to get the "rights" from an artist to distribute it through a platform. Therefore, the owner has the right to decide how it works because they aren't bound by rules and limited by certain code of conduct or anything. Subeta isn't going to pay to get the rights on something since they already own it in a way. If they were to create a set of rules and limit, I don't think it would work out anymore: especially if things are bound to be unlimited forever. Less and less people would pay if it isn't theirs anymore. I think the system shot itself in the foot long ago and it escalated in this. It creates an idea of artificial elitism and it creates a features that is truly on the verge of being more hated than loved. To me, the pawn shop shouldn't have been created unless the ratio was equal. You paid 700 csc to get it? You get back 700 csc (or even 600 csc) and it sells from the same price. But somehow, the Pawn Shop was a milking cow for staff (as ... much as it worked?) but it also broke a few things along the way.

That's my cue to ask but ... Can we get a Pawn Shop "sale" before it close? I'd enjoy it.

I personally would like to see more organization and a standard for how new wears are released. I think the way it is done now is very poorly maintained. People slitting through the forums is too messy. Some people have one board for all the stuff they are selling and then another separate board for when they collaborate with another user and the more users you collaborate with, the more new boards you have. Then if one board is too old before you sell a new item, then you have to make a new board. By the time someone is looking to buy something, you're a part of 50 different ping groups skimming through 30 different threads just to find the thing you want.

I think there needs to be a central location for browsing for slots and a central location to commission clothing.

Thank you for your reply! As it's set up now, there are different pages to find information for CWs and being able to go to just one place might be able to clear up some confusion. And maybe this is just me, but as helpful as the community is, I think this central location should be an official page, similar to the Custom Clothing page, but with details about being able to commission and slot for CWs. Though I'm not sure if or how the staff would implement it.

And a few general questions anyone with more knowledge, because I'm still not totally sure myself. What happens to CWs belonging to frozen users? Are those items just no longer able to be released and users miss out? Or would there be able to get those items into circulation?

This is the last response I'm gonna bother making, because you're selectively reading my responses and not acknowledging any agreement I've made with you on your points or the suggestions/solutions.

1. You did say CW Shops were difficult to navigate. I agreed and said unfortunately there is not much we as releasers can do to change that beyond removing anything that isn't new (which means less availability of items). A lot of the reasons that things do not get put there are because of the inability to manage the backend. (screenshots below in response to another person who I mentioned I'd show them to). We have been asking staff to make it more user friendly/easier to organize/navigate. We've gotten no response so I said you should try making a suggestion thread for staff, maybe they'll listen to you guys. I also agreed that the current setup for how to find them and view them all is difficult/impossible. Again, you need to tell staff on the suggestions forum. We're not being listened to when we bring it up.

2. You say most releasers do not have easy to navigate threads/intro posts. I said to tell them if they don't. Most of them are not even aware of this thread, so they're not here reading over my shoulder and seeing people complain about that. They can't fix what they don't realize is a problem.

3. I wasn't clear when I said "I'm sorry you don't like it" - obviously I can tell you personally have no trouble finding cws. In general, I meant I'm sorry that you don't like that this is the best/easiest option for now, but unfortunately, until the site creates easier methods for searching/navigation of shops etc, ping groups are the best option. There's a huge ping group directory that was created as a result of feedback. There was a new buyers guide created to help people navigate the market created as a result of feedback. The fact that releasers are actually listening to the feedback and doing what we can from our end and still being told we're not hearing you all is baffling to me.

4. The mandatory minimum batches/mandatory all public/etc etc suggestions have been talked to death on the news post and on here. I'm not even going to bother responding at this point because we disagree on forcing people into doing minimums and it's a disagreement at a fundamental level. You and I will never agree on this.

5. As far as the urgency to buy thing you keep mentioning, I've never actually seen a single person discussing how they do single/limited batches to force people to decide quickly and rush into buying. I don't know where you're seeing that, I can't agree or refute it because I've literally never seen it anywhere. When I create batch limits, it's because I doubt that more than the number I go with will be filled (if they're even all filled). If I set a time limit for batches, it's generally so that people who are waiting in the unfilled batch know at what point they no longer need to hold onto the csc for the item. This is me personally, I don't speak for everyone, but I honestly do not believe the majority of releasers are doing it to trick anyone into buying without thinking.

Screenshots to show what I was talking about:

So....in my CW Shop, there are 100 items per page, and even without adding all of my things I've released over the years, I' have almost 3 full pages to go through. This is what fits on my screen at any given time - note all the things that I had to move to a category nobody can see but me called "Retired" - I unfortunately cannot remove those items, even if they have 0 copies available left for purchase at all (drag the image to the address bar to see it enlarged). Despite the fact that items viewable by customers are organized from oldest item ID to newest, it's organized alphabetically in my management page so that I can have fun hunting for where the new one is haha:

As for the general submission backend, I have 20+ pages with 10+ items each (does not include things I submitted direct-to-shop, only items submitted for slotting). Items that have no copies left, or that have been moved to a cw shop, take up far less space. Anything I have batches left on that I haven't moved tend to stretch the page downward so that I could slot. this is great if I want to slot a new release that appears on page one (these are organized newest item ID to oldest), but hunting backwards for older releases I never moved means loading each page one by one to find where the item is:

Despite multiple requests from a lot of releasers (and compared to some, the number of things I have to manage is so so small), we've not gotten anything adjusted to make management of these spaces any easier. We've asked for the ability to permanently remove things from CW shops and have them retired forever, as well as asking for a separate tab for items with no copies available on the item management page (the second one I posted). It's a giant unruly mess, which discourages use of CW Shops for more than unlimited items for a lot of folks.

From the brief preview I saw of the database, it looks like there will be a lock icon and a note that a password is required (it also tells you if the item is available in shops with a link/pricing/sP pricing if there's one in usershops/etc). I need to hunt up the tester board for that again and see how progress is going (there were some major things not working last I saw).

Thanks for the screenshots. I knew it sounded convoluted on your end but I didn't know it was that bad.

I seriously feel like the tl;dr for this board is that we ultimately need staff's help to make things optimal for both buyers and sellers. Now that the wardrobe seems to be running relatively smoothly(? I haven't been using it much), this sounds like it could be the next major project? Bummed that the only staff response so far has been about community guidelines. :(

Yeah, it's a giant mess and I don't even have half the things that some folks have. It's a bummer we can't get it better organized..

And I agree completely with your statement. We need Staff to get involved here and communicate with /everyone/. I'm really disheartened that they started all this and then disappeared into the ether as far as the public is concerned, leaving all of us to kind of fend for ourselves and explain how/why/what happened.

Yeah I have only read maybe 4 pages skimming through this board but I'm glad some else shares the same opinion. It's very hard to slot on something unless you know who is releasing it and what ping group to join

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but if a user has an item and is frozen, that item stays with the account and is deleted if the account deleted.

If the artist is frozen, then you can still buy and sell any items they released before they were frozen. The artist cannot submit any new wear to the site and people cannot commission from them unless the artist is unfrozen.

If a commissioner is frozen and the artist sold them the design without reserving the right to release some recolors for themselves, then no one can release new colors unless the original commissioner is unfrozen.

Gonna try to help answer questions for you :)

Yes and no. If they were frozen and had moved the items to their CW Shop and priced them prior to being frozen, you can still purchase until copies run out (like in this shop). If they never moved the item(s) to their CW Shop, the remaining copies/unfilled batches are gone forever - even if the user is allowed to return with a new account after a year, those items they released are account bound and they cannot/will not transfer ownership of the remaining batches to the new account.

Yep - fully correct there, just confirming for you!

They have allowed recolors from people who are frozen/banned from cws. I can't recall where the official stance on this was posted because the rules/info are in several places but nowhere in full, but I do know that they have allowed users to submit recolors from frozen artists. They cannot submit new work from them though unless the person is unfrozen or unbanned.

Thanks a lot for the info, Reaper and Wesker. It's interesting to know, but kind of unfortunate for the active users that CWs/designs belonging to frozen users cannot be maintained outside of a listed shop. Maybe that plays into the rules for releasing items past their announced batch information? But since there's a rule (somewhere) that CWs cannot be similar to one another outside of recolors, I would guess that might limit potential artists? I don't know if that's something the CW community is even worried about, but I was always curious about the situation as a whole.

Oh yes I forgot about if they were in shops you can still purchase them! I was only thinking it was physically in their account like a vault or user shop

Oh no I was talking about the other way around. Like, the person that bought the design from the artist is frozen. I don't think then that the artist could release the design, even though they drew it, because they sold the design to the person that is frozen. I am assuming they would have to have made some agreement before taking money that the artist reserves the right to release some recolors.

Once an item is onsite ONLY the person that submitted it can submit recolours :( so once a releaser is frozen no more recolours can be put on site

That's what I thought, thanks for clearing that up!

On a side note, I think that explains some of the pricing issues too. If the releaser is frozen then people know no more colors are coming out so they buy up all the ones they can and what used to be attainable is now no longer attainable. Maaaaaybe a solution would be that once the user is frozen, it becomes the property of Subeta and staff can decide if more recolors get released?

Yeah, a few folks moved all their stuff to the shops before leaving which was nice.

Unfortunately yeah, if the releaser is frozen/banned, it's gone forever. No new recolors can be done because an item (and any recolors) are bound to that account only - even with permission to recolor, an artist or other user would not be allowed to submit per Subeta's rules. Only the person who submitted the original is allowed to do it :( The info for that is on the Official Custom Wearable FAQ Thread in the General Inquiries tab (dear god all of the rules need to be in one place, there should just be tabs on the main Custom Clothing page with Rules, FAQ, etc):

I don't know if that would work or if staff would implement something like that.

I don't think that many releasers have been frozen though. I think more have gone inactive rather than gotten frozen but I could be wrong.

Staff briefly talked about possibly forcing all cws from frozen users that had been in the old Cash Shop one into some sort of general slush cw shop and/or assigning them a shop and setting the pricing at what it was when the Cash Shop had the cw section and then decided against it.

They have said they will not take control away on items from frozen users as of now (people mentioned releasing the remaining batches and/or releasing the items in general as some were frozen with approved items that never distributed to slotters) and they said no. I can't remember where it was, whether it was in the news post or in a forum thread back when they announced CW Shops and the removal of the CW section in the cash shop.

It's a bummer, but I understood the reasoning when they mentioned it. Although of course it could change in the future.

Ah well. I don't know how much that would really help anyway but it looks like something that won't happen.

It would've been super great for some of those older hard to find things that were unlimited back in the day though :(

I miss some of my old stuff that I got rid of way back when.