I'm done with this thread, so please stop pinging me to it. It's clear that those in the CW camp are just defending the market with very little interest in hearing anyone out who takes exception to certain practices. I mean, when you ask people for their opinions and feedback and then post paragraphs to refute those opinions - you're not really looking for feedback, you're just on a soapbox telling people why they're wrong.

Good luck to everyone!

Pawn shop 4 eva.

waves back Oh cool, thanks for the quotes, that helps a lot! To be honest, in large part, I think it's the perception of divide more than an actual divide, given the new info about that thread. It goes back to the tendency of the PtB to make site changes that aren't very clear (and let's be honest, it's been a problem since pretty much day one) and/or aren't well communicated, add that to a realization that there's a thread in which discussion has happened (or is that "discussion", lol) that much of the site isn't privy to, and that creates some awkward perceptions backed by hurt feelings. Clarity is super helpful, thanks!

I'mma get a little rambly, I apologize. What I mean by that is "not heard by the site", because it's yet again a communication issue and we're all just talking in the void with no real resolutions. The folks who could be answering a lot of these questions and frustrations that are coming up are the PtB, not necessarily other users, because there's not a lot of closure in sharing fellow user opinions. I'm agreeing with many here who are stating that it feels like a fruitless back and forth, because what I'm seeing a lot of in this thread are people stating and restating the same points over and over and then getting frustrated because others aren't immediately accepting that opinion.

I think, quite honestly, we're looking at a system that's trying to be (at least) two things at once and failing. The system is cumbersome and awkward for everyone on all sides of the situation, and the site still hasn't figured out what it wants the CW market to be.

I'm seeing frustrations because on one hand, it's a system that provides cool unique items created and intended for a very small group of people and/or private use, gained at a fairly significant cost. There is absolutely an aspect here of coolness, of uniqueness, of "look at this awesome thing of which there are very few." That's absolutely fine. It's why the system was created and in that aspect it works exactly how it's meant to. There's nothing wrong with this, it's also why a lot of us like CW's.

On the other hand, we're also seeing the growth of a specialized economy that's making a lot of money for the site (and in that respect, sustaining/supporting the market is in the interests of the site) driven by the need for risk sharing (need to sell slots) and the desire for profit (will I make profit back from this thing I've made/slotted). In this aspect, CW's are increasingly expected to appeal to the entire site, not just a very small portion of it, and this aspect of the economy is driven by people actually buying CW's in bulk, for lack of a better word. However, making CW's accessible to everyone for purchase (in essence) and sustaining that kind of monetary momentum means that not every CW can be unique and specialized, and it also means easier access to the process, which isn't there right now.

The friction and awkward balance between these aspects is what's causing a lot of bad feelings, in my opinion.

To that end, what's the ultimate goal? Where's the balance between these two aspects? (And this is what other users can't answer, this is a site/PtB question). Is the goal to continue to have this specialized single-use, make a cool thing process, still? Or is it to streamline the process to get more users into the economy, or both, and how is that going to be balanced?

To streamline the process in the ways people are asking for, to make it more shop-based and to widen the customer base and increase ease of access as well as maintain the value of CW's themselves, that means the specialized "this was made for just me or me and a few friends" aspect of it will be necessarily impacted, and that's going to have to be taken into account as well.

It would be nice to find a way to streamline the system and keep all those aspects, but the site clearly hasn't found the way to make it work yet. I get people are invested in certain aspects of the market, but if it's been a bad experience for some folks, that information is valuable and authentic too.

I applaud you.

Yes, I agree with you on many of the points you bring up - unfortunately, staff are (in my little opinion) underpaid and underappreciated for all the work that goes into maintaining this site. They need to deal with so much stuff and CWs just might not be at their absolute top of priority list. So things take time but we're all very impatient for change because we love our pixels so :3

Of course, most, if not all, of the "solutions" that both sides want will need to come down from the staff side.

In the meantime, at least personally, I was just hoping to control some of the anger and misconceptions against the CW community and to hear what we as individual sellers can do better rather than what the site can do for everyone. It seems, though, that there is little an individual seller can do to appease everyone haha.

I thank you for taking so much time to write that out. I'm not sure if there will ever be a situation where everybody is truly completely happy, but here's hoping that the promised changes will at least satisfy most of us.

Cheers ~ <3

Wow @ the fact it was 48 hours between the "discussion" of closing the pawn shop and the actual closing of the pawn shop.

Subeta isn't going to do anything about private release CWs because they don't officially recognize private releases at all. Can you imagine the shit storm that would happen if they did?

No. I don't at all agree with there being an official way to tell if a CW is private. Leave it up to the users to make lists of known private CWs and if/how many public copies there are.

I am disappointed at this change. The Pawn Shop was an accessible way for me to purchase CWs without having to pay a full price using a system I don't understand and was a way for no longer wanted items to end up in the hands of more casual CW users. I believe it was a great way to introduce more casual CW players to CWs and perhaps interest the in the wider market. I just don't see myself buying more CWs in the future and will save my CSC for good sales.

Just saying, nobody had a problem before the pawn shop sold CWs. Don't understand all the issues now that it's going.

Something else I would like to kind of toss into the mix here, I don't know if it's been brought up here or not yet but in the private thread keith stated that the budget has been basically put towards cw's so if they don't fix things in the right way then it puts subeta in a sticky situation. Someone had mentioned lowering the submission cost of cw's as a way to help when the board first got created.

I would rather have the pawn shop close if it means we keep being able to play subeta, Without the site there are no cw's to even have issues over and this whole thread becomes a moot point. People aren't going to put their money into cw's forever and tbh I kind of wish cw's weren't really ever a thing because now that they are there has to be some major thought put into fixing the shit storm that was created without tanking the site.

Jay - not pinging but if you decide to scroll, I just wanted to note that it wasn't ever meant to come off as lecture-y. You were giving opinions based on misconceptions and falsities, and all I think we were trying to do was give you accurate information to better help you understand both sides. We all buy too - we get the issues inherent in it, but the problem is that no matter what we said, you seem like you want to put all the blame and responsibility on one side and not accept that things might not be as they seem. In the end, you get to think what you want though. I'm sorry you feel like the cw community is shitting on buyers.

It definitely helps. Sometimes I can't even fill one tho.

Yeah, I agree that I think there's more of a perception of a divide than an actual one. Most of us are sitting on both sides of the fence here haha.

I also agree that lack of staff response/transparency definitely didn't help the situation, and having to comb through the massive and nearly impossible news comments to find where staff posted is definitely problematic. Perception of a thing unfortunately matters a lot more than what the truth may be sometimes (and the way it seemed was definitely problematic). Hopefully some other folks see it and realize there really wasn't much input from users beyond "oh yeah, leaving the ability to sell to pawn is probably a good idea guys".

It really wasn't a discussion on our end. Keith told us while commenting on a user's comment that pawn seemed problematic that the staff had been discussing closing it for months now based on data they have that we don't have access to. He seriously only asked us one question about it and we gave the answer that seemed most beneficial to everyone on the site (to please keep the selling option). Hopefully that info at least helps with the feelings that everyone was being left out of something - we were left out of it too beyond a minor heads up that it might happen and then a 5 minute notice ahead of the news that it was happening.

Also I can repost the list of the other stuff he mentioned if you haven't seen it and would like to, I just have to go copy it (the shit about things to make it all easier to find/buy/sell/list the cws etc). Forum search is the first of some adjustments that are coming.

Just lurked through some of the posts, and I'd like to leave my opinion as a releaser(not an artist) and a buyer.

I'd first like to talk a little bit about 'profiting' from CWs. As a releaser, this doesn't really happen. I'm canadian so I spend anywhere from $35-60 CAD to even have an item drawn for me. I'm willing to pay that, because I like supporting artists, and I like have items that I want to see on site. With a first batch being between 4-5000 CSC and most slots being 600-700 CSC, the amount paid is either 4,800CSC or 5,600 CSC. (Assuming the artist wants a slot, so your first batch would have 8 slots for other users to purchase). That's a 6-800 CSC "profit". But after everything spent to actually get the item drawn, you'd have to fill a minimum of 6 batches in most bases to break even. I don't think I can remember the last time I saw a CW slot six full batches.

And then comes the issue of not filling batches to even get your item on site. People see everything as a chance to grab it later for less in the pawn shop. But, if I can't even fill a batch, then it's not even going to end up in the pawn shop! I recently had to pay $30USD for a commission followed by $50USD to put a batch through because not one single person slotted on it and I just wanted it on site already. Yes, I could have gone the release to CW whop route and just paid an extra $15USD instead but in all honesty, I hate how impersonal that way of selling is. I love that I get to find and interact with people who like the same things I do with the slotting system.

So, to sum up, there is no profit when it comes to CWs. Maybe there once was, when batches were easier to fill, but that is long gone. People who release/create custom wearables are paying far more for this feature than those who only buy. I definitely realize it's a choice to make and that imnnot trying to point a finger at buyers, I definitely spend hundreds monthly on CWs so I understand.

I definitely think that if there are things that /could/ improve the CW market place, it's definitely worth giving a try.

Sorry if that was rambley, it probably was.

Here's what I'm wondering: why does it feel like the average user's feedback isn't being taken seriously? If the CW market is suffering, then why does it feel like responses that are from the CW market side are trying to alienate more and more users from the CW market? The liked posts and news comments should speak for this.

In order for markets to thrive, customers need to be taken seriously. I'm not saying bend over backwards to every little demand, but listen to the customers. There's a clear majority of users that don't feel welcome in the CW forums. People have given feedback but then it feels like the ones in the market are saying they're wrong. And even to say they're lazy...

Blockbuster failed because they refused to recognize the change from a physical media to a digital media market. It seems like the CW market as is is destined to fail because a lot of people in the market are unwilling to be more user friendly or inclusive, which is what the average user wants. The CW market's demands have changed, and if you want it to succeed, you should consider how well your business practices align with the demand.

There has to be a happy medium somewhere... one that will allow the CW market to thrive and allowing for the existence for SOME privates, like if it's related to an OC or a beloved pet.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly wasn't trying to alienate anyone with my responses and I do apologize - I've been quite clear that I have my own biases and I've taken the last day or so to really read over everyone's responses again to see what I may have missed. I must also ask you to consider that the "average user" really does not understand the inner workings of the submission process nor the concerns of the releasers - which is why many of us have been trying to answer questions from our point of view to better illustrate the logic behind certain decisions / things in place.

"And even to say they're lazy..." Again, this was poor word choice on my part. However, it is accurate to say that there are many users who simply do not bother to scroll through the forums - and it is not always because they have had past bad experiences in the CW community. Either they do not have time to go through individual posts or they simply dislike the forums, I get it. Lazy was a bad word to use and I apologize again for offending people. We all make mistakes.

"listen to the customers" I really thought that was what I was trying to do here, but honestly, we need to be heard too. There are legitimate reasons for why private items exist, why CSC prices are high, and why the pawn is closing. Just because I cannot agree with you does not mean you are not heard. I recognize the problems going on, but there is frustratingly little as an individual seller I can do to solve most of it. ALL these issues have been brought up in the creator thread but staff are overworked and underpaid and it will take time to see change.

As stated before, the creator thread has brought up the topic of consolidating releases / ping groups into a directory of sorts so that you don't need to go through the individual threads to see everything. It takes time and there needs to be several volunteers to actually organize this. We hoped that something similar to this would help make the forums more accessible in terms of "searchability". I'm not 100% sure this will happen since we're all very busy people but there are some of us who continue to push for it.

Private items are again, the right of those who create the art and those who purchase the rights to the art. I know a lot of you are frustrated with this, but that is simply how art works. There needs to be some level of protection for artists + their direct purchasers or everyone could simply freely distribute our work without permission. I doubt that Subeta will officially accept private item designation OR get rid of it in the near future. It's kind of a sticky legal situation and even without legitimizing it there are already so many concerns. I'm sorry this is the best I can do to explain private items - it is not that we do not want to help on this front, but rather we cannot.

"There's a clear majority of users that don't feel welcome in the CW forums. " "unwilling to be more user friendly or inclusive, which is what the average user wants"

I agree that there are users that don't feel welcome in the CW forums. I had asked for specific feedback for what an individual seller could do (for example, myself, who already organizes the thread + only releases publicly) to make the CW forums more welcoming. In my opinion, I did not receive such specific feedback back but rather more opinions on why the CW community is so vilified. (The only specific thing I think we can do is to hold more giveaways and events to get more people excited about CWs. Which many of us are already doing - I have been giving away hundreds of CSC and commissions in my own group and will likely extend it to the general forums soon as well.)

If anything, I feel that many many of us are trying to be more user friendly and inclusive - however, if users never visit the forums in the first place, how will they see this change? Just these past few days, I have seen at least four of us hold giveaways and events to try to combat the recent negativity against us. As frustrated as many of you are, I am equally frustrated at seemingly not being able to be heard as well.

Again, I'm sorry a few of you continue to feel unheard. I have been reflecting on my own biases but there comes a point when we both need to really open our ears and hearts to what each other are saying. I will continue to think and reflect on what can be done to help this but for now, I hope your days are wonderful and that this issue doesn't completely affect your time on Subeta negatively.

<3

To reflect on that, a part of the budget has been fed to the custom wearable feature. Quite ominous to think about it ... What if it tanks? Will Subeta keep up? I mean the market is dying no matter our positivism toward the feature. How was the site keeping up 5 years ago?

I think this should have been done as a site-wide feedback. :s

There are so many nuances to this like -

A) how many people could afford slotting on cws at their current price but aren't doing so because they feel alienated by the cw community?

B) how many people can't afford to slot on cws at slot price but could afford (and would want to slot) if slots were less like r200 discount / many, many months in pawn shop discount?

C) how many people despite any changes (to pawn shop or base prices or anything) just don't want to slot on cws (like other site priorities)? +/- can't afford to?

(and then of course you could feel like A + B for example)

because after trying to read this thread, it seems like the talk's been focusing on A) when in all actuality it needs to be entirely more inclusive of everyone on site if we want to know how to shift the cw community if cash flow to the site is a big problem as a result of this cw business

and while a thread in cw creators is one start, a better gauge of actual cw interest/want by the entire site and the underlying aversions to buying/slotting on cws needs to be gathered in order to get to the problem D:

and to be perfectly frank, I'm saddened about the backlash toward cw releasers / creators technically speaking, when you shelve out money to the site over a custom item and the site allows you to have control over distribution because you paid for the item to be on site, then no one else should feel entitled to dictate how that item gets out there they have no right because it's not their money on the line sure, it's seen as cliquey and elitism but that's just because people want to be able to give their friends a chance to slot and/or for the item to retain value? like how in the world are those two bad things? this isn't nepotism where someone is in office and gives a very important job to someone they know, it's a custom wearable pixel on a site and if the idea of justice over that is causing anyone to take serious offense then they really need to reconsider the concept of justice

this isn't socialism, this is someone paying x amount of money to get an item on site, and like most sites which offer this, they sure as hell get control over distribution this isn't even impacting game play because it's not a required aspect of subeta play unless you count those rare wearable contests where they divvy up cw v non-cw but those are so rare let's not count those

the only dismaying thing is it's impacting site cash flow to an extent it has people troubled over the site's income? (did I read this page right? lol) which would put everyone in jeopardy so that is why if you really want to change things, get a site-wide feedback form, get a lot of feedback, don't stick to news comments

but I still don't believe the above is reason enough to justify any sort of criticism of cw distribution, I mean sure, have an opinion, I just think criticizing releasers over distribution or minutia like item not in first post or too many opening posts or too many rules etc is just veiled prejudice against the perceived elitism /shrugs

It seems like everyone for the changes are creators/releasors/frequent buyers. The ones against the changes are not frequent buyers/releasers/creators. Having one private thread that only creators can access doesn't help matters. It's never a good idea of having the opinions of only having one side of the argument, especially when it involves a business.

This whole thing is a mess. I want to support creators. But, I don't want there to be so much drama about it. I'm realizing why I stayed out of CWs for so long. I think it's better to stay out and save myself the headache. I'll still buy CWs occasionally, but I'm glad I can resist and save my money for other things. Maybe once promised changes happen, I'll look more into CWs again.

- Good luck to you. You have good stuff going for your shop, and I hope you do well. ^^

Hey . :) I don't talk much as I'm kind of super scared of backlash, but I would like to have a discussion if it's all right.

I am an artist, who typically spends from 20-60 hours on a piece of artwork (yeah, I'm a little slow :p). I am also a sheep farmer and an artisan, so I completely understand the value of hard work and how much is required for these pieces (especially backdrops!).

However, we are talking about virtual items here. These are pixels on a screen that are so small that you couldn't even get them printed. Therefore, the longevity of these items is also extremely limited, as this website may not even be around a couple of years down the line. I don't know if you were ever a part of the dolling community (The Underground, Eden Enchanted, Glam!, What the Muffin), but it was the same kind of deal, so we only ever asked for forum currency in exchange for our pixel dolls and blinkies. Sometimes we really need to separate ourselves and take a step back. Subeta is asking people to pony up $7 (actually $10 because you have to buy CSC in certain increments) for one virtual item.

I love Subeta, and in the interest of wanting it to continue, it may be good to take a page out of the marketing textbook. However, if these changes are implemented I may also have trouble holding onto my paycheck! So I am providing this input at risk to my own finances. ;)

I also work at Salvation Army, and witness this every day. Picking up an item for 300-400CSC feels much lighter and easier to do than spending 600-700CSC (especially because of the psychology of numbers, but I'm not getting into that here). You could buy CSC for $5, grab that item, and still have 100-200CSC left over! WHOO, that feels pretty good. So you keep looking around, even though you know you can't find anything that cheap, because if you see something really nice, maybe you could buy just $5 more CSC. So not only are more users coming into the market, but they're eventually spending more too. There's no guilt, so they can shop more often. If the CW community was younger, I don't think we'd have enough items in circulation to support this, but it feels feasible now.

The pawn shop provided that. When the CW shop sale was happening, I ended up dropping $20 on CSC (which I couldn't really afford to do blush) because so many nice things were showing up in the Pawn Shop. Users were unloading old items they didn't want anymore to make a little spare CSC for the CW shop sales.

I usually say that pricing yourself too low brings in the wrong kind of customer, especially for a handmade item. But with a virtual item, you need to make it so inviting that people will forget how much RL money they're spending on something they can never hold and may be gone shortly.

Of course it's alright!! :)

You know I agree with you on most of what you said. CWs ARE too expensive. They're expensive for buyers and for those who submit it!

As sellers /releasers / artists, believe me, we all would love to slot at 300-400 CSC. However, depending on the type of item, the submission cost alone would make this a perpetual loss. As an artist, you obviously want to be paid SOMEHOW for your work! While the enjoyment of seeing your item online is fabulous, I doubt most people would continue to pay 1000s of CSC to put their item on site.

CLICK FOR MORE DETAILS ABOUT THE WHOLE PROCESS

I urge you to read the document to understand more about the costs behind submission :)

I, personally, don't get the whole 'cw forums aren't welcoming' thing. I remember jumping in to the market way back when the wing essences were the hot new thing, and I felt just fine? I've always felt at ease.

To reflect on that, a part of the budget has been fed to the custom wearable feature. Quite ominous to think about it ... What if it tanks? Will Subeta keep up? I mean the market is dying no matter our positivism toward the feature. How was the site keeping up 5 years ago?

The site was keeping up in 2011 because petsites were popular, Neopets was going to shit, the mobile market was just starting and there was plenty of cool content on Subeta since holidays were overhauled and it felt fresh

2011-2012 was weird

Just to drop in my two cents on the issue: as someone who has only lurked on the CW forums, I have no idea as to what the process is for buying. I know about slots, but sometimes people talk about ping groups having first access. Does that mean I can't sign up for a slot? How can I tell if I'm allowed to sign up? When will my CSC be taken and who do I give it to? When will I receive the CW? And more questions regarding the process of getting involved.

The Pawn Shop is a much easier way to browse for CWs without having to interact with other users and try to use proper etiquette when buying on the CW forums. I can look at items at my own leisure without having to commit to figuring out the rules of the game simply to purchase 1 item.