So, not to get into the middle of things, but I just want to say that I've had a few users, who I barely know, approach me and offer to sell me a private item of theirs from my WL. That absolutely does not scream "elitist" to me. I appreciate being sold any WL item, to find out that something was private and then get a chance to buy one anyway, that is so sweet. No one has any obligation to sell an item to me (or anyone else, for that matter), and honestly it may not really be my business but to have people throwing insults around, indirectly at my current/former friends? That's frustrating.

There are 20,000+ CWs onsite. There may not be something just perfectly exactly like the private item someone wants but trust me. There are more than likely items out there (official, CW, sometimes both) that will come close. And if not? Someone else could shoulder the cost to get just what they want onsite instead.

At this point, CW's need a new definition, because the whole "this is what it was ORIGINALLY made for" argument is old and tired. That isn't what they are anymore, and you know it. In fact, the site knows it, and now has budgeted their livelihood around it.

Also, you can't simultaneously tell users that their feelings are invalid, and then turn around and ask them to help you pay to get your item onsite. It just screams deception, tbh. And then you all have the balls to them how wrong they are and their feelings are hurt just because they didn't get the item they wanted that you have. I just...I don't even have the right words to describe what I'm feeling right now. Ashamed, maybe, on your behalf.

I think too many people are conflating ACTUAL privates, and people who are making things one batch when they flat out know their item is desirable.

your example is completely different. You didn't ask for help to pay for you item, you did that as a gift for your friends onsite and that's awesome. You shouldn't feel bad because you did what everyone is screaming the market is for anyways.

But on the other hand, you have everyone else who wants the buyers help to cover the costs of getting their items onsite, who then turn around and whine that they can't fill their slots because pawn shop. Well, if YOU were using the system as intended, wouldn't you just pay for it yourself? You can't have it both ways.

I'm fine with the PS closing. But in reality, I'm still not sure how it's going to help you fill your slots when there's no way to advertise them to a wider audience. Or there's nothing in place that's going to stop people from pricing it way lower in R200 just to be rid of it. Or if the R200 shops come about, pricing it lower so it sells as well. I genuinely don't think this is going to be the big fix you're all wanting, and where does that leave everyone?

Perhaps, as a middle ground, if you are asking for the public to help pay for slots, (and yes, you are doing this when you take slots for your items), you need to have a two batch minimum. Obv, if slots don't fill after X amount of time, you shouldn't be obligated to pay for the second all on your own. That's just ridiculous because some things genuinely don't fill. But, if you're paying all on your own, then you can still abide by the single batch thing. I don't know if that will help, but at this point, there needs to be some testing to see how well things pan out.

Also, as a side note, I think releasers expect their items to sell out immediately. I see on almost every post, something similar to: 2 batches, but if the second doesn't fill at least 8 by XX date, then single batch.

This probably started to make people slot right away so they could get the items onsite, but then it's very possible that these people impulse slotting are the ones who were immediately pawning their items or selling them off super cheap. Buyers remorse. Smaller batches would help with this as well, I think. it would be easier to fill 5 VS 10. But I think sellers sometimes need to leave their item up until, say, it reaches the NEWCW board. Because I see so many items that generate interest, but they went single batch. : /

EDIT:

I am still wondering why this whole thing started without all users input. We're two sides of the same coin that view things differently. Can (idk who to ping here) confirm that they are listening to both sides, or if they plan on getting the full user bases input?

I don't think most people are trying to invalidate the feelings of anyone posting, but the problem is that being told we're elitist and/or greedy is pretty grating. Especially when it's repeated over and over by the same several people in nearly every post they make. It's leading to some testy responses for sure.

Also - the Pawn issue started without ANY user input. I posted direct quotes from the board that Keith posted on where he said it was something staff had been thinking of doing for awhile. The only thing he asked of us (as I posted) was whether we thought the 'sell to pawn' option should still be allowed if they did close it, to which people said yes. The artists and releasers have been attacked both on the news post and in here since Staff made the announcement about the pawn because of some misconception that we all secretly met behind backs and organized it. And when we refuted that, people continued to ignore the facts and insist we had super advanced knowledge (we found out pawn was closing literally 5 minutes before the news announcement) and that we were elite because the Staff had made a forum and gave access only to people who had submitted an item to the site. We have no control over that forum or its restrictions.

Yes, the market has changed, yes CWs were bigger than the site anticipated. But mandating how someone has to release something really is not going to encourage people to continue releasing things. And, unfortunately, we cannot make you feel better about something that you want to be angry about. You don't like privates unless the person has spent all of their own money to get it on-site and gifted away the copies to friends or hoarded them for themselves. That doesn't mean the item suddenly doesn't exist. A fair number of the private 'releases' I've seen are gifts. Does it make you feel better to know that they were a gift and you still don't get to buy one? And if so, why? Why does it bother you more if someone is like 'hey friends who I talk to all the time, do you like this thing that is based on my character? If you want a copy that is cool but I can't afford to pay for your copy.' Maybe if you could articulate why that bothers you? Most people don't even post private things in the public forums at all - so you don't know about them until you run across them.

You said Beren is exempt because they paid for a gift entirely on their own. A lot of us have done that. I did it for Lumi too. I have other private items that were offered to friends because I trust them not to run off and dump the item. I buy back my privates if they don't want it anymore. The ones I have released privately are all OC related. Am I wrong for doing that? How about when there was so much interest in private makeup I did that I made a public version in all the same colors with slight alterations and made them unlimited to be nice? Am I still elitist? I don't ask the public to help pay for my privates. I invite friends to help pay if they want, otherwise I'll do it on my own (and I do have several things I've kept almost entirely to myself save for when friends asked me if they could buy a copy - which was not me slotting).

As for the Pinged Only posts, forum groups are how we advertise our CWs to a fair number of people. A lot of folks figure that the people who join their group should get first shot at anything they release because the person has taken the time to join a public group and often is a more frequent customer. Frequent customers get perks in the real world all the time. Discounts, early access to newly released things, free slots, etc. Why are you holding this to a different standard than you would hold any other business to (especially when insisting that we are like tiny businesses)? I honestly and truly have never seen anyone kicked off a thread or seen anyone get snarked at for trying to claim on something that was pinged only. Generally the releaser politely lets the person know that they're currently only taking slots from X group and that they can claim once customwear is pinged.

I take exceptional issue to this: Perhaps, as a middle ground, if you are asking for the public to help pay for slots, (and yes, you are doing this when you take slots for your items), you need to have a two batch minimum.

I have items that were waiting for slots to fill a single batch for over a month before I had to go ahead and submit on my own dime and shell out 2600 csc each item to directly submit and provide copies to my coreleaser and the artist. Why in god's name should I have to up the batch limit when I already cannot fill a single batch? No items should have mandatory minimum batches.

And again, you mentioned above that people should offer more batches on items "when they flat out know their item is desirable". But I have a counter-point to that: If they have said anywhere on-site (comments, sMail, group forums, standard forums) that they're releasing X item and it will be 1 batch, and any recolors will only be 1 batch, they absolutely and with all finality CANNOT release more batches. If the item is suddenly more popular than anticipated when they release the first (or whatever number recolor) then it's too bad for them and everyone else. They said it, they have to abide by it or it is scamming according to Subeta. just reiterated this on the CW Rules. Granted not every single batch item is going to be because of this, but it's something to at least consider.

And we're not really two sides of the same coin. A lot of us are wrapped around the entire coin because we buy and we sell. Trust me, I do not miss the days of the public copy of a private auction that often went to 10k csc and beyond. The market has never been more open and it's never been easier to find the items I want. I still miss slots, but sooner or later, someone else is gonna commission something similar to that one item I had to have. And if they don't, I can if I need it that badly.

I feel like the only parts of my argument that's being concentrated on are the "elitist" part and a misconception that I want all privates gone. No, I don't believe the vast majority of releasers are elitist. The ones I've seen, with very few exceptions, are very nice people. The elitist perception is flawed, which is what I've been going off of. And no, I don't want all privates gone or have Subeta control how items are released. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm personally attacking you... That's not the case.

The truth is hard, but I've said what I've said to help reanalyze the CW market and see how it could do better. I've been fighting for the buyer, because the only side that seems to be heard is the seller's side. This is not the sellers' fault.

I'm no longer going to respond to anyone who give me the "CWs were always meant to be private" or "I'm not elitist" arguments. Both of these are missing the point. The market has changed whether you like it or not and the market feels elitist. The keyword here is "feels". The majority of releasers are not elitist. It's a misconception that needs to be changed. I've given some suggestions on how to change the misconception before, but, like my argument, seems to have fallen to deaf ears.

It's frustrating to me because I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I'm willing to compromise and listen, but when feel like everything I say is invalid, then what's the point? Do you want the market to die out? This appears to be what's happening. Who knows... the new ways to shop for CWs might be all the market needs. But, finding other ways to help in the meantime doesn't hurt either.

considering I was the last person who pinged you, are you referring to me in your first paragraph? a ping would be nice as it's only through curiosity I'm checking this thread again

there's been passive aggressive or flat out aggressive posts from both sides unfortunately :c

I think there are things sellers can compromise on, like making slotting easier / streamlined / friendlier / whatever, but distribution is not one of them, which means privates will still be a thing, which means the buyers' perception either stays as it is and things just continue to fester or it alters through altered ways of thinking about private cws (which is why I think asked for elaboration on feelings on privates)

I asked for improvements, maybe you posted somewhere in this thread about it and it was glossed over my posts regarding cw economics and batch numbers wasn't exactly directly pinged or addressed by many either, it's hard to stand out in a bunch when everyone's posting

it's not anyone's fault staff chose to post only on the cw creators board :s shouldn't have happened, but oh well, it is what it is and it's making the releasers look bad when what it feels like is staff had thought of removing the pawn shop for a while now and wanted reaffirming feedback on it and sadly that happened to be a restricted board

trust me, I don't like what happened with the pawn shop either :l

IF you had taken the time to actually read my post instead of getting offended immediately because I don't have the exact same ideas that you do, you'd see if have answered your questions already. And also, most of what you typed out as some kind of "gotcha" examples have nothing to do with what I said in the slightest. But instead of trying to view it from another's perspective, you've done the absolute opposite.

I'll say it again: this has nothing to do with people making CW's as lumi gifts or birthday gifts or you making your own OC items. Those items are the very definition of private. What I am referring to is the people who make a very popular CW, recolor it 47 times, and make every one single batch. What exactly is the purpose of that? THAT IS ELITIST. Not your OC character or some niche item that maybe someone else wanted. And, generally, these particular types already have their batch half to three-quarter filled before being opened to the public. As an outsider looking in, it looks pretty bad.

Not that you'll read it here, but I addressed this as well already: Obv, if slots don't fill after X amount of time, you shouldn't be obligated to pay for the second all on your own. That's just ridiculous because some things genuinely don't fill.

This is really, really reaching. Nobody does this right off the bat for EVERY recolor, considering most posts state flat out there may or may not be recolors, depending on interest.

This also makes zero sense. One of the main arguments here is that CW makers don't really make a profit off of CW's, correct? Lets say I make a popular wig, but state the black and brown would just be single batch because they didn't fill well. But then the community gets wind of the wig, and suddenly everyone wants it. Why on earth would I continue to make them all single batch? You're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Wouldn't it be in my best interest to state each recolor would be 3 batches (or whatever), but less if they don't fill? Isn't that the safest way to "guarantee" I can make customers happy, while also trying to recoup some of the money I've spent on creating the thing?

Instead, the cycle continues, and thus, the moniker of elitism is born. That's when we feel like it's more about notoriety in having made the CW that's highly desirable and rare, rather than making the thing for other people to buy.

Look, most of us understand that CW's are a weird thing. Some CW's I've seen "go viral" are so not my cup of tea and I don't understand it at all, while others that I think are amazing can hardly get a batch filled. And I think we can all agree it's always going to be hard to gauge interest beforehand. But it makes absolutely no sense to me why people state things are single batch before they've even had to chance to find out if their item will sell. THAT is the point I believe most people have been trying to make here. (And the point of my suggestion.) It creates an unwelcome environment, where you either have to be in a certain ping group or happen to be online at the exact time to grab something you may genuinely want. It DOES make people feel excluded. It also doesn't help when it's not even a full 10 items up for grabs, but only 3 or 4 because everything else has already been pre-claimed.

If you'll take a moment to flip through this thread, I think you'll realize that the posts with the most likes are not the posts the creators are making, but the posts where the buyers are vocalizing their grievances with the process. That should indicate that there is indeed a problem, and "suck it up and join some ping groups" isn't the best solution out there. There should be some trial and error here, with multiple options being discussed/implemented to test whether they will actually work or not.

I really would like to see both sides come to an agreement that works for everyone all around, but it seems as though only one side is willing to compromise. Or rather, only one side has no choice. I don't find that very fair, and I don't care for the way the site handled this transition. I still believe this should have been an open forum for all users to discuss, and I don't care that the creators only got 5 minutes warning before the news post. Your side was still the only one that was taken into consideration.

- I'm sorry, don't feel bad. You did everything right and it's sweet that you want to continue to gift your friends. ^^

- While the real world does have perks for frequent shoppers, they're usually not exclusive items with specific rules tied to them. Also, you don't see a shop that says "we're only allowing our rewards members to shop today". That would look bad and I would be inclined to stay away from that business.

- Ah no, I wasn't directing anything at you. I meant to reply directly earlier, but I had to leave. I should have left my full post until later, sorry.

Yeah, there is a lot of passive aggressiveness on both sides, myself included. Keith's decision to shut down the Pawn Shop all of a sudden and to make the feedback board private were very inconsiderate moves.

When this first started, I did have the view of all privates being bad and the majority in the market being unwelcoming. But, I know I'm wrong now. I want people to keep on giving gifts to friends. Having OCs, pets, and special gifts for others and yourself is an awesome privilege that I want to live on. What I don't understand are when specific colors are private.

is explaining the batch issue well.

Some suggestions I made before and new ones: -Not using your main CW board to slot for privates. Having a private board using the forum group features would be the best option. -Taking out thread titles that say "pinged only" or "friends only". The title of the shop and item names are good. -Pinging the releaser-specific group before customwear is a good perk, but allowing everyone to slot immediately if it's posted on the main CW board would be more welcoming. I don't think the majority of users stalk the CW boards 24/7, so the releaser-specific group is still getting an edge on slotting. -More organized forums. This is up to the releaser, but having a suggested standard to follow would help. Like, putting what's up for slots in the first post or near the top of the first page. -I have no idea how open the releasers would be to this suggestion... Since Subeta doesn't recognize privates, there can be one forum thread that lists all privates. Just one easy place to know if something is obtainable or not. Unless, something like this is in the works with the proposed CW directory. This list could also give a better view on what privates typically are.

This is turning into a debate. Community guidelines ... where you at? Staff and mods are usually lurking and waiting to flag things. Surprised this hasn't happend here yet.

I had a whole paragraph written were I compared battle "top prizes" to 1 batch cw and their exclusivity but alas, my page refreshed. I even took it on myself by making my Strands of the Shark (that I've heard were wanted a lot more than one batch. I tried with 12 slots ... It filled! Tried with 15 slots ... and nope, it died on me. I pinged my public group, asked them their feedback. Less than 5?6? person answered me. How am I supposed to please?

While not immediately, we don't want to wait 3 months to get a single batch onsite. Worse! We don't want do spend $16 to get it onsite so the 4 people that slotted get their item. If you stash it in shop, will it sell? Who knows. If it doesn't: it's your loss again. I don't know about everyone, but CWs are expensive enough so forking such amount every time ... it's kinda rough at the end of the day.

And anyway. Pawn shop closing or not: if users are not interested in spending $6-$7 for an items, taking away the pawn shop will not push them all to the forums and it will sure as hell not give them all the items they want.

It's ironic but nothing will change.

Hi I'm actually very annoying about my database. has been showing some crafty stuff looking like it and I've given him my two cents on the matter. I really HOPE he's going to make a proper database showing each and every status to make things fair and square (plus, at least you'll not need to make a board to ask if it's possible vs impossible to have) You have my two thumbs up for that.

While I don't disagree about "letting everyone claim right-away (it's your 3rd point)" ... that would render a ping group completely useless and the customwear ping would probably be pinged much more on a daily basis. Plus, I can see someone else making the argument of "loyal buyers" like Costco having a card so you can buy or, Sephora sending special emails exclusive to their members and so on. I'm on the fence about this one. @ Cherri

Responding to your suggestions:

A forum thread that lists all privates: yea, I'm not sure Subeta would allow us to compile a thread like this or if people would WANT there to be a list like this - I'd probably end up crying at the amount of pretty things I'd want but couldn't get haha ~

If you do want to know if an item is private or not, there are some very knowledgeable people on the CW Identity threads that can help you out in a manner of minutes depending if they're online. I have no idea how they magic out whether an item is private or not or batch / whatever, but they do an excellent job of it there. It's not ideal, but it is a resource that can be used! Because the designation isn't officially recognized and many items are never even publicly revealed, compiling a public list would be difficult.

As for the pinging part - people in my ping group are usually more likely to slot on my items than the people in the general CW group. It is a purpose of ping groups - to narrow down the sheer number of pings that go through CustomWear to the groups that you like or have experience with. I do think that at least some, if not most, releasers still let you slot whether or not pings have started yet - at least I just use it as a notification system more than anything else.

I have responded to your other suggestions before so I will not reiterate. :)

I'm pretty much done here... I actually forgot about the whole debate thing, so oops. I guess whatever happens happens. I was just hoping to help.

- I'm interested in seeing how this database goes, so thank you for the info. And yeah, you're right about the Costco card... It was just an idea.

- Thank you for the feedback. I wasn't sure how the ping groups usually work, so it's nice to know.

I've already cried at the pretty things I couldn't get, so I feel you there. XD

I don't know where you got the idea Keith made a feedback forum for releasers... a CW artist made a topic for releasers and creators to brainstorm ideas, it was NOT made by staff at all.

Keith merely posted on it a couple times after reading the ideas creators discussed with each other... so you're completely wrong on that point.

It was completely an innocent occurrence where he merely posted on an existing board where releasers were discussing amongst themselves what we should change.

UHH im just gonna chime in real quick

This is really, really reaching. Nobody does this right off the bat for EVERY recolor, considering most posts state flat out there may or may not be recolors, depending on interest.

Uh, I'll just quote myself from like two days ago:

Maybe it was a mistake on my part, but I said (when releasing the first color of that wig) that each color (other than the first) would be 2 batches. Even though mine is 2 batches and not 1, it's not entirely unheard of. Maybe my wig will be more popular than I anticipated, but I can't do anything about the batch count now since I already said it would be 2 batches. (shrug emoji) I don't know why I set a limit from the get go, but I did. For me, it's probably because I like planning things in advance and having relative consistency amongst releases.

You're definitely not alone! I did the same thing with one of my releases. Stated they'd ALL be one batch only and have to abide by it. Some people were sad I'm sure because everything was limited but I have to abide by what I said.

I did, in fact, read everything you said and tried to address the more salient points.

I'm only going to address one, because at this point I've come to the conclusion that no matter what concessions people make, you're still just gonna be pissed that you didn't get a slot on whatever 1 batch wig made you so mad.

These sentences were not separated by very much space and I'm just wondering if you can acknowledge the logical disconnect here. You don't like it if a time limit is set by the releaser straight off the bat so there's no confusion, but also they should retire unfilled batches after a time limit? How are they to determine it? How are the few people possibly in the second batch to know how much time there is before they're for sure not getting a slot because it didn't fill and the csc they've been holding for that slot is free to be spent elsewhere on the site?

It's also very convenient to discount my experience as a buyer because I happen to sell too. I've been a buyer since the start of the market, I miss shit all the time that I'd like, but I figure if I really want it, I can grab it second-hand when someone else realizes they can't work with it. It's clothes, it's not a weapon that gives me a leg up in the next battle plot, I can play the game just as well without it.

And nobody told you to join groups and get over it. We offered that as a solution to the number of people who said that navigating cw forums was too much work. Joining groups gives you the option to just click the ping that takes you to the release rather than trying to scroll through threads with 500+ pages.

I literally just saw several things on Amazon that are restricted to purchase from Prime users only. So....the real world does in fact do that. It does offer early access to frequent customers/members and then allow the rest of the customer base in after a set amount of time. I can't get Hamilton tickets because they sold out to theater members before general public offerings. I miss things literally all the time because of early access I do not have IRL.

Also, there was a list of privates being cultivated. You know what happened - people went to the releasers and harassed them about copies (even on items with absolutely 0 copies that were not owned by the creator). So that went away because people can't behave with civility.

I do not actually check if people are in my ping group before I accept their slot. If I want only my ping group to have access I make a thread in my group. I ping my ping group first on a public forum because that is the entire point of a public ping group. To have a group of users to ping. I do not want to see the giant increase in customwear pings (I'm already drowning in them) if we did away with public groups. If I'm releasing a bunch of things in quick succession, I only ping my ping group(s)/the artist's ping group(s). I wait to ping customwear until all the things are up on the thread because otherwise I'd be pinging them every other day which is too often for a group with 600+ members. I already get at least 20 but usually closer to 30 pings a day or more for buysellcw (which is a group with 500+ members).

Oh man, battle prizes are things I think of all the time, since those are supplied by the site and can affect game play actually (man those weapons I'll never get - I cry I cry).

This so much. If you weren't going to spend it to begin with, you're not going to spend it now. And it doesn't matter how welcoming we try to make the community, because there are guides and directories and help galore, and people are still trying to pretend like we don't give a shit. It's pretty much making me not want to actually.

Thank you for confirming that ❤️ I see it all the time (even if it's not in the main post, sometimes I'll see users ask about recolors and the releaser will say 'yeah and they'll all be X batch(es) too').

I haven't read this whole board, just the first 3 pages and a couple of messages on the last board.

But I wanted to say that I agree with a lot of the points people who are 'not into CW' make.

I will personally not use 'pinged only' on public board anymore (that never made sense, creates elitism ('look at this pretty item only my friend can get!' and with private forums there's no reasons for this anymore) and make my board more userfriendly.

- Ohhh... it was a misconception. It was mentioned further back that there was a thread that had restricted access and Keith posted on it. So, it must of have been interpreted as being a thread controlled by staff. I'm sorry about that.

- You're right about the limited access thing. I didn't think it through very well.

Okay... so Keith has taken the time to post on the creator thread but not this one? You know... the one buyers can access? Great... just great. This actually makes me more frustrated. Are we just not worth the time? Even though we buy CSC to support the site?

Trust me, we're equally frustrated that staff isn't posting here for everyone to see. We've been shouldering the entirety of the backlash because of this. Throughout the thread we definitely have all pinged several staff members trying to entice them to post here. Unfortunately we don't have control over them. And they're not really posting there anymore either. The vast majority of the posts discussed were him responding initially and then posting some of the plans for what they want to do (I quote them somewhere on here - it's the allowing to price cws for csc in user shops and the database). After that it's been pretty quiet. I'd like to think it's quiet because they're putting a lot of work into the back end of those things so they can release them by the time the pawn closes.

- That would be great if the plans are released by the time the pawn shop closes. I also hope that's the reason they're being quiet as well.

Thank you for posting what was said over here. It was extremely helpful and makes me hopeful that good changes are on the way.

No problem! I understand absolutely how things appeared at first and I wanted there to be clarity on what was said/done there vs here so people weren't left feeling like they didn't get to see what was happening. I shouldn't have had to do it, staff should've taken the lead there, but it was necessary and I'd rather there be transparency than this confusion and misunderstanding.

I am going to say this only once: I am not mad about missing anything in particular, so you can quit pretending I'm just butthurt over a particular item, okay? It makes you look immature and unable to have an adult conversation where differing opinions are discussed, especially when you seem to think you even know what item I would specifically be upset over missing a slot on lmao.

We buyers are LITERALLY telling you:
--we don't know what you're selling --your boards are confusing --finding shops is confusing --finding particular items in shops is confusing --by the time we know an item exists, you've already capped your batches (IMO, this is the most important one.)

These are VALID concerns, and we are trying to find ways to HELP you get the word out and sell your items. (bonus, it might just help you recoup some of your costs as well.) It doesn't help that any and all suggestions/discussions are immediately being shot down because "gosh, you just don't know how hard it is to release items. Have some empathy, for gosh sakes." It's the equivalent of shoving your fingers in your ears and screaming LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU. It should be beyond obvious that most people here were trying to have a civil discussion and that we hoped our side of the matter would be taken into consideration when whatever new model was implemented. This is the feedback board, after all.

As far as trying to take two of my statements out of context, I'm over it. Clearly all rules should just be made by CW creators and not by the site at all, except for when there's one obscure site rule that doesn't even apply anymore, but is able to be used for your defense.

Let's hope these new features work out without proper feedback.