First off, the fact that this was treated as something that was "an open discussion" when it was only ever accessible to one side of the market, the producers, is really rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm guessing a big reason why a lot of people who will never submit a CW but will purchase them are so miffed.

As it is right now, unless Staff manages to implement the fixes they've proposed (making shops that show up in shop search or an item directory), it's going to be even harder to find stuff that you're looking for, especially given how awful it is to try and search through the forums for a specific item - and even still, this still doesn't strike me as a solution to the fact that the CW market is saturated as hell. A user shouldn't have to wade through dozens of pings every day to try and find wears that they may be able to get a slot in a batch of, and the wardrobe is a great way to sort through hundreds of private release or not for sale CWs.

Like, the serious issue here is that the CW market is oversaturated. There are 20k CWs on this site and it's a what, 5 year old feature? People just aren't as excitable about CWs anymore and it should be the onus of the producers to make items people want to keep, not on the market to artificially introduce scarcity because the oversaturation devalues the products.

I'm not heavily involved in the CW market because it's so hard to keep track of what exists and b/s/t is not that easy either. With official Subeta items, I can at least find them normally through shop search and have some idea of who even owns the item of interest. I look to the advertising forum for discounts, quick sales, and whatnot. In contrast, right now, forums seem to be a necessity for the CW market, and I'm not going to join a million ping groups just to stay on top of it (again, especially with the broken forum search).

I know I'm echoing statements already made on the news post, but as someone on kind of the outlier of CWs and pretty new to it all, I'm really sad to see the pawn shop go as it was where I'd made my first CW purchase (and most of my few purchases) and found many more wonderful items while browsing. I think for many people newly interested in CWs, the pawn shop provided a great way to browse and purchase cws while avoiding the intimidation of the forums. I think this would be addressed perfectly with the introduction of a r200 shop feature!! Being able to search for a cw I like and buy for a set price without the hassle of the forums would be extremely ideal, I really hope they have this feature in the works since it was mentioned (and the pawn shop is closing so soon).

As for the custom wears forums, I know everyone has their own set up, but it would be super helpful if the first post/few posts had this information clearly available (and while most do, it's not uniform and can get really cluttered and confusing):

• current release along with date it was made available for slotting, many times I never know when the new actually happened or what it refers too, but I may just be slow

• clearer titles maybe with dates as well to let users know when something new is available besides having to join all the ping groups

- if there could be a ping group in general for new slotting like there is for newCW (which is pinged after slots are filled already and the item has been accepted and put onsite right? My understanding of all this is a little grey since I'm just learning) then that would be fantastic ;u; I understand each releaser wanting their own ping, but I'd love to be able to just join one group for all types of new releases even if that means a lot of pings from one group. Each releaser could still have their own ping group as well for those that are only interested in a few specific releasers (omg I have no idea what terms to use I hope this makes sense) derp derp... it's just the pinging thing in general is messy for me I wish there was a way to streamline it somehow

I had one more thing but can't for the life of me remember right now ugh

The CW shop page makes no sense to me, I'm following some shops but it's almost impossible to find new shops and items as the feed never seems to refresh properly :( If we could have the feed show shops with new releases, or show only random or only shops we're following that would help as a start. That section needs some revamps (and maybe a wishlist search function?)

The r200 threads are also really difficult to wade through and as someone unfamiliar with it all, my main concerns are:

• not knowing the price/value of anything (so when asking a price and told to offer I panic and feel like an idiot)
• having no idea in heck which items are private, limited release, exclusive for those in pings groups etc etc
• a lot of back and forth in asking if the item is for sale, the price or what they'd trade for it and those negotiations

Most of which could be solved by the wonderful idea of r200 user shops :) And a database for CWs! I absolutely love the idea of being able to search through and organize by which ones are in user shops, which ones are in trades, which ones are in releaser shops etc etc but I know that would take a lot of time to create and organize.

Even if I could just hide the private CWs in the wardrobe like we can hide all CWs that would make life so much easier ;u;

Since this is already so long I'll just say that I love the pawn shop for it's ease of accessibility and search organization features and it was a nice and simple way for new users to obtain some cws they like, but I can understand the reasoning behind how it was affecting those who work to put cws on the site. I'm looking forward to the changes in store for making user-to-user cw purchases easier and hopefully streamlining the process for both sides!

I buy from the pawn shop, from users cw shops & sometimes get slots on items if Im very lucky. I mostly sell my unwanted cw to the pawn shop because Im impatient and cant be bothered with all the to-ing and fro-ing of bartering but I have put the odd thing in the trades if it was popular. My main niggle is finding out who is selling an item, I know how to find out who's created it, but if I want to message the seller, its almost impossible. I would love to see a directory, much like the site directory building, but with CW, so I can browse to my heart's content, thats what I like doing most, just wading through them and seeing them. I do hope there will be something soon for us to easily buy cw, I dont care whether they're second hand or not, as long as the maker & seller gets their fair payment. If they become too expensive that will kill it stone dead,its bad enough now. I know one very well known creator who is skint right now, and trying desperately to make some csc so she can submit some new stuff, something needs changing, or they will stop bothering.

I don't buy from the CW pawn shop too often, but do not like that it's closing. It's nice to get a CW at a low CSC price.

You asked for people to explain why they stay away from the forums, so here's my personal experience:

I tried to buy and sell from users on the advertising r200 forum, but I have no idea as to the 'worth' of CW items. So, in my world, everything is 600 csc - the general cost of a slot. I started offering that, and was basically scoffed at for daring to offer so low for items that were apparently worth 1000-2000 csc. So, yea when it comes to reselling or buying from users - there are just too many items for me to know their worth, and the mark-up on the items is insane. I don't think it's fair that an artist/releaser is barely breaking even on a release, and then a reseller can mark up the price to whatever they want. So, the pawn shop was SUPER EASY because the price was just there - take it or leave it.

In terms of slotting - I find most "shops" to be way to confusing to use. The opening posts contain so many rules, guidelines, and different sections, that I get overwhelmed and don't even spend more than a minute on the page. Especially when it's multiple users running the shop. It's also not always clear what items are actually for sale - this is the biggest obstacle. I don't want to read 3 posts of rules only to find that only one item is available, and it's not one I'm interested in. The pawn shop was easy to navigate, everything was clearly laid out, and you could search for items you were looking for (in terms of layers).

I also just hate the whole "slotting" thing. I don't want to fight over an item - to me it's not worth the back and forth, and checking the forums and reading pages and pages to see if something is available. I just want to be able to buy it, with minimal interaction, and know that the item is mine. I've also had to wait quite a long time for batches to fill up, and I'm someone who shops impulsively, so my interest in the item would wane - but I'd be stuck with it because I'd already paid.

Also, many of the CWs that I liked were older ones that were no longer being sold on the forums, and not available in the cash shop. So the pawn shop was the only way to find them.

Lastly, I don't know why all these CW shops have so many rules. I don't know if it's just me, but I find it completely off-putting. As soon as I see that, I just leave the page. I want to buy the item and use it however I want, because I've paid for it. Again, the pawn shop had no rules or restrictions.

So, those are just my personal reasons for preferring to buy from the pawn shop. Along with the price, I just liked the convenience and the certainty. I'm not sure if that gives you anything constructive to work with - would be happy to chat off-thread if you wanted more feedback :)

For me, it's that it's a huge time sink and it's not fun. Usually I've got a specific kind of item in mind or maybe just a style or sometimes even an exact name of an item I might be interested in, but who knows if it's even available, or even where to find it.

Usually I go to the forum, I click on a likely thread and find nothing of interest, or the same twenty wigs that everyone's selling. Click on another thread, find links out to someone's three stores where they're storing their CW's and I have to take twenty minutes each to comb through everything they have on offer to see if any of it is what I want. Nope, nothing there. Then back to the thread. Click on another thread, and it's more of the same, only this time it's "SHOW ME YOUR WISHLIST!". Not very helpful if I'm browsing.

Let's assume that I find something I'm interested in.

Quite often, there won't be prices listed, just a "please offer!" I hate haggling. HAAAATE it. Hate it with a fiery passion. It stresses me out and pushes a bunch of anxiety buttons. I hate it so much that I will deliberately pay more in shops just to avoid having to negotiate on the boards for deals. Obviously not everyone feels this way, but it's a big reason I avoid the boards like the plague even when I have CSC to burn.

So I'll ask "okay, so what are you offering" and they'll ask "well, what do you think it's worth", which kicks it back to me and up goes the anxiety because I don't want to offer too little, but I don't want to overpay, and it tips over into a haggly back and forth and...ugh. It's not fun.

It's also pure luck if the seller happens to be online at that time to respond. They often aren't or are busy with something else. In many times a deal can take hours or days to go through.

I vastly prefer looking at a selection of items, seeing what's there, seeing the price, and buying it. It takes five seconds and I have my item and I would vastly, vastly vastly prefer some sort of database of CW's or even some slot-price store showcase over having to troll the boards for CW's and wasting hours on fruitless searches.

I personally cannot speak about the R200 boards, as I don't use them! I'm really sorry about that! Hopefully though, people who do will see your feedback here (I'll point it out personally to a few people I know and see if they might be able to shed light!)

In terms of the Custom Wearable Shop Threads though, I can see where you're coming from and I'm definitely going to try to take these things into consideration with my own personal shop, as well as bringing it up to others that I know.

• More straight to the point, and clear shop fronts. Less words, and more indication of what is actually for sale, much more early on in the posts. -Less wait time on items in shops that need to be submitted to queues.

The second one is a real challenge, but at least for my shop I can try to be much more considerate on the wait time for things going forward in 2017. I am truly sorry both of you have had such a stressful time working with CWs, and I'm hoping some of the things staff has in the pipelines at the moment will make it much easier for you both to enjoy the system. I definitely do not believe either of you should feel like you can no longer participate in CWs unless you're uncomfortable or anxious! I'm definitely hoping we get some news in the near future (I can't say what or when since I don't know of course!). I do really appreciate hearing what you both have to say though, because it's opinions from people outside of the community that we really need to bring everyone together.

Oh, my mistake, I was skimming and didn't realize you meant actual wearable slot sales threads!

In that case I would definitely suggest having a clear first (couple of) post(s). I know I've clicked on threads, got very excited, only to find on a second or third close read-through that the items were pinged-only or private sales. Or were told after the fact because the ping group knew that, but folks wandering in off the board didn't. Or, as someone else mentioned, the newest release was buried in the thread somewhere and the front page had nothing that was currently listed for sale.

Also, some shops do have galleries of previously offered items, which while very neat and kind of awesome, can be misleading when it looks like those are the actual sales, because sometimes those are larger than the actual sales portions.

I don't know that there's an easy, one-stop-shop answer on thread organization (I personally dislike spoilers to hide items/lists because a post with six green spoilers doesn't look so welcoming), but I do wish we didn't have to rely on threads at all. I really like that shop search pulls up CW shops, I think that's a step in the right direction as it helps lead buyers to the items for sale, but I do absolutely think we need a larger, more comprehensive search function.

I do keep up with a couple of ping groups, but like others have mentioned, it's prohibitive to keep up with everyone's ping threads.

It's probably just not my cup of tea. :)

I'll be honest with you, I hate having to work with a thread too =P I wish there was some way we could like... IDK, upload it, and then the first 9 people to put money down help with batch one? And there was just a place where anyone and their brother could browse those without even having to touch the forums. I honestly don't even know if something like that is possible but holy potatoes would I love it n_n''

Let the market collapse, it is oversupplied overly syndicated and oversubsidized and it deserves to fail. Eliminating the Pawn Shop will encourage this market correction so I'm all for it and I am giving positive feedback here.

Pretty much the entirety of the conversation about this economic change has been hidden behind a thread that you can only get to if you are a creator. The whole system, from the snobby hidden nastiness of the threads where new artists ask for help and get bitchiness instead, to the absurdly high standards for an item, to the cliqueness of those who make exclusive items ask for slots and their ridiculous rules, is consumer unfriendly. The whole procedure is a huge elitist pain in the neck.

Some CW artists, maybe that can use CWs to make money. But that should not be the purpose of CWs, they were meant to be an opportunity of personal expression. From the point of view of personal expression then ok, be a snobby elitist, but don't expect most users to care about it or support it either.

It's been awhile since the subeta meetups but Keith himself was surprised when I told him that in 2010 that CWs were changing his enterprise from a virtual petsite to a fashion site. Maybe he has a different opinion now. If he does, he needs to learn economics because none of what the creators have been suggesting have anything to do with earning the site a profit.

Worried your CW doesn't sell? Don't make the same old same old item over and over again. The market is oversaturated, and nothing you do will change this no matter how much restriction you engage in towards creating an oligarchy/cartel of which the closing of the PS is one. Stop creating the banal and expecting somehow that TPTB neeeeeeeed to support you. One of the criteria for CWs is that they have to be substantially different, or it used to be (it's been years since I made my CW) And yet, there's dozens of the exact or nearly exact hairstyle (all named after this or that eatable sugary food) in the Pawn Shop.

i'm really just adding to those complaining about the difficulties surrounding the forums, but yeah. i avoid them because they're generally confusing and kind of unwelcoming. someone else stated it better on the news post, but it feels cliquey and chaotic, so i avoid the shops there. i also tend to avoid r200, though i have used it before. i just get so confused on who released what and what its status is and if i'm paying too much or offering too little. having an anxiety disorder does not help, either, lol... i'm pretty much an outsider to the whole system and that's something i just don't feel will change, tbh, unless the proposed changes make it a little more user friendly.

really though, my biggest issue with all this is the fact that most of the discussion is apparently taking place in a private forum that most users don't have access to? that's really not okay? i feel that a lot of the anger and frustration would be eased if we could just see for ourselves what's being discussed and considered in whatever changes are coming.

I said most of what I wanted to say in my news comment. What I forgot to say is:

when I don't slot on a cw because csc funds are low and I still technically could slot, it's not because I'm optimistic and think it will appear in the pawn shop soon ish

it's because I figure that unless it's super popular, it will appear in r200 eventually with a discount to boot so yeah, r200 and reselling with a loss seem to be the major issues to me edit: not saying do away with r200, because I feel like it's definitely needed, and the resell at a loss mentality for most cws unless demand is still high is imo so ingrained and natural (like it's what we do with our stuff irl?) that I don't really see it changing

like ask yourselves, why don't people buy more from the pawn shop? part of that answer is because taking 100 off slot price isn't really a "pawn shop" discount, it's not radically different from slot price, and r200 offers more discounts if you're willing to go through it

also because I saw this mentioned on the news somewhere (and if I misunderstood, mea culpa, that comment feed is loooong, my brain probs fried):

r200 + cw shops feature = disaster in my opinion maybe it would balance itself out in the end but let's face it, cws stagnate in cw shops most of the time unless you're clever about it and make it seasonal / limited time r200 + cw shops means undercutting when everyone attempts to offload in a simple, non-trades, non-forum way; I don't see how it could be better than the forum for keeping item worth (if you don't like posting, sure, it would be better, but then again I wish trades had a wishlist option to cut out unnecessary browsing)

also, one last thing, selling batch extras to pawn shop is just shooting yourself and the people who actually cared and bothered to be slotted on your cw for more in the foot and sure, if you've had the extras for a long time, then it's not that bad, but doing it relatively soon ish just to get more csc is just bad practice / etiquette

and reading through the threaaad: While I get some cws appear similar, it's not exactly the main cause of the problem either different items are thrown out there but can have issues getting one batch filled familiarity isn't a necessarily a BAD thing because it means a certain item style / type is easy to work with and people like that; like why shell out csc for something you don't feel you're going to use more than once? I was one of those people that saw 54972 redesigns of the "same" wig type but really on second glance it's not the same; not everyone will think oh I don't need this one I like more because I can substitute this other lookalike, the other one might be prettier / rarer (and yeah, status / popularity will play a part, it's just natural just as things are in real life)

anyway I will stop blabbing now xD

Hello ~

I'm pinging you, but I really mean any other user who feels that CWs are "elitist" or unwelcoming.

First, the vast majority of releasers do not make profit. Most need to pay upfront commissions if they are not artists themselves. For high quality items that will pass standards, this can range anywhere from $25-80 or even more. Any profit they do make from batches (which at this time, is hard to do for most) is in the form of CSC. A virtual currency. No matter how much you value CSC, USD is still more versatile and you still lost the use of real world money. What kind of community would it be if releasers were not allowed a chance to break even? I'm not sure why that makes people so mad, but if you were in the releasers' shoes, you would be singing a different song. We DO release things because we love and enjoy it - if we wanted to make a profit, the faster way would be to just make pet profiles / graphics.

Second, MOST ITEMS RELEASED ARE PUBLIC. I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences with items you want being private, but as you said, similar items are allowed. The similarity allowed + "oversaturation" prevents certain items from only ever staying as 10 private items never to see the light of day. I'm not sure how you expect the staff to combat this problem if you want both oversaturation and "elitist private" items solved. Also, I'm not 100% sure why you think the market is super oversaturated? Wigs are one issue - hair can only really be fashioned in a limited number of ways and people like having lots of wig options. You will find they sell quite well because of this.

Third, the closing of the pawn shop is not to make CWs into a "cartel". I'm not even sure WHERE this idea came from and all the negativity and comments against the CW creators and community reflect a) a lack of communication on our part and b) a lack of understanding and empathy with our issues.

The closing of the pawn shop was a courtesy warning to those who rely on the pawn! We all have another month before it is officially half-closed. In that time, the staff are ALREADY PLANNING AND IMPLEMENTING changes to solve issues that many purchasers have. The reason why these changes are not shared immediately with everyone is to make sure that something like the pawn shop doesn't happen again. I'm pretty sure when the pawn shop CW idea was created, many many CW releasers anticipated this issue and wanted to stop it. The site went ahead with it anyway and here we are.

Please, just have patience with the process and I promise, there are changes coming soon.

As for dealing with the false perception that ALL CW releasers are elitist, I can assure you that it is not the case. If you really spent time in the forums, you would easily see this. Yes, there are private groups / pinged only items, but just ignore them? The thing is, those items tend to fill the fastest. The ones left open to the public float around for weeks before filling. So solve this issue by supporting shops that hold your same values. Support the community in the way that you want it to be and change will come in the form you desire.

Sorry for the block-post, I'm just really sad about so much of what is being said.

P.S. Letting the CW community fail will basically drive it towards only releasing private / exclusive items. These "cliques" as so many of you call it, can support their artists / releasers quite easily. So it's really a lose-lose situation.

I totally see that! I'm not a coder so this is probably unrealistic pie in the sky, but what if there were a database that had all existing CW's, links to the stores, places for explanations on the item (batch numbers, private/not private), and a place where you could search available open batches and then just...slot yourself?

I do think thread creators have a tough row to hoe as well; how to make a thread attractive and inviting and informational all at the same time, plus keep it up to date? It's exhausting from every perspective.

I'd love to see CW sales move away from thread-based sales, and more into....well, like what we had with the Pawn Shop, at least in presentation.

THANK YOU. claps 99% of all CWs appear to be a dessert or cute animal that's really a wig. Make a background or an actual animal once in a while and I'll buy your work.

[URL=http://www.subetalodge.org/list_all/rlow/200/rhigh/200/layer/backdrop]backgrounds - 1296[/url]

foreground - 696 (not all animals obviously, but a fair number appear in here)

ground - 233 (again, not all animals, but a fair few)

Wigs and clothing dominate because they are often less niche than backgrounds and other items that aren't more ha specific. But the things you seek are out there. I see people releasing backgrounds and companions with regularity.

Normally I do not really get involved in drama like this, but since I use the Pawn Shop often to get CW's, I wanted to share an experience of just 15min ago. Since people have been saying that the forums are not at all elitist or unwelcome I decided to check out the CW forum again today. Hadnt been there in a while because of the cliques, privates, friends only, 1 batch,...

I literally opened the first topic I came across to see if it was a CW that could intrigue me. The topic said it was a new CW, with no mention of restrictions. On the first post there was a list of people being pinged first (private friends, friends ping groups, CW ping groups, etc...). That should have made me cautious, but I was trying to stay optimistic. Ofcourse the new item itself was nowhere to be found in the first post. Since I am just a regular user/buyer I had not been pinged there so I had no idea where to find the item as there was no link anywhere either. I started searching on the last page. Had to go back 3 pages to find the actual item. So I find the item, and I actually like it! Great! I am more then willing to pay the regular price for an item, that is not an issue. But, oh wait. On the actual post, somewhere hidden on page 150+, right above the item it says "pinged only". Great.

I will miss the Pawn Shop. At least there I knew I could get the item I saw and liked without restrictions or feeling like a numbnut. :(

Edit: Sufice to say I left the CW forum after that to save myself the disappointment. I will instead browse the Pawn Shop as long as I can as it is better for my selfesteem. Edit2: And yes, I know not all post or items are like this. But really, how do you think it makes people feel? When searching for a possible CW becomes an anxiety-ride instead of something fun.

I'm sorry you felt that way upon entering the forums. Nobody is saying that the elitist attitude does not exist at all, but that it is not the majority or the overall vibe for regulars in the CW market.

I am not part of any private groups and only a member of customwear and a few PUBLIC ping groups.

The solution to not having to trudge through the forums would be to first join the ping group customwear. You get pinged when slots are open for new releases. Some releasers ping their groups first - fine, find a few artists you may like through customwear pings and join their groups.

It is how I have been able to not engage myself in threads that do not welcome me. As I said before - private pings and slots tend to fill quicker than overall customwear pings despite similar art quality. A) Supporters are more willing to support familiar artists B) These artists then have incentive to reward those who constantly support them (ergo private items). I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong but the facts are that YOU as a purchaser have the power to support who you want. Support the artists that are welcoming and you will find that your experience in the forums will be markedly different.

<3

I think it's a shame that the pawn shop closes. I'm not really a part of the CW community, especially not since I've returned here after two years of inactivity. I like the pawn shop because I can easily browse it, in search for a good deal or just to find some item I didn't know about, whereas I don't find myself using the forum that often. Like feanor said, it can take a lot of time to find out which items are being slotted and if I can actually get a slot. For some reason this was more transparent before my hiatus. Also the contents of the user shop-CW area are not always very clear to me. I'm following a few artists that I like and I sometimes check out their shops, but the ones I get at random never seem to contain anything I like.

I think I will be buying less CW's because of this. Or just limit my buying to black friday periods. Last time I've seen that there were some extra rereleases at that time, so I could finally find some items I really liked.