Reading a few pages of this topic made me not want to buy from a majority of the CW community anymore, or even sell to anyone.

You all are insane, it's a game, take it as one. If you aren't happy, then just go, and don't let the door hit you on the way out, whether you support it or not. It's good in ways, and bad in ways, but the last time I was online, which was when it was first posted, it was havoc, and still is. Such a shame.

Just my two cents though, and it's probably irrelevant.

Has anybody discussed about having unlimited or conditionally unlimited batches (that the creator can make and put into the shop) but making that particular CW untradable?

A lot of the arguments tie around the fact that CWs are tradable, and its flexibility or restrictiveness.

I haven't seen anyone discuss that, but I think that would deter buyers since they wouldn't be able to sell the item if they found they couldn't work with it as well as hoped. I know Staff already scrapped the idea to do account-bound wearables (they discussed them for the Antique shop clothing items, making it so account bound copies could be offered cheaper) with site items. I don't see them looking into this at all unless there was a huge call/market for it (and since they couldn't get anyone to be very interested in that for the site items, I think it won't be popular enough of an idea to get any foothold here).

Thank you for the insight

From the others posts I read, the creators have many different reasons which determine the limit and initial distribution of the wearable. But the buyers mostly focus on two things, availability and an attractive price.

The buyers would prefer an open market, which is currently the case because CWs are tradable once they leave the owner. It should be what the system was originally designed. However, the creators doesn't benefit in any way when second hard CWs are resold. In fact, an increased price means they lost potential extra income, and a decreased price mean they lost a sale. If it hasn't been mentioned before, this is probably another reason they created very limited batches. Hence, it seems plausible that creators would prefer a closed market with untradable CWs, but there is a risk of fewer sales if the buyer is cautious if they can't recoup the cost, for example sell back to the creator. On the other hand, creators don't have to worry as much about second hand items affecting their sales (or at least how much their items are priced), so they may increase the quantity of their CWs.

I don't have enough information to conclude or suggest which approach is best, although I've wondered if both open and closed market CWs can coexist side by side. It's a delicate balance between creators and buyers, regardless of special cases when there are no buyers (for instance personal use or gifts)

I think there needs to be "resale" added in the first statement. A lot of people are concerned by the reselling price of their items. At most, they look to get their CSC back. If their item is in pawn shop? Good luck getting slot price for your item.

Why would a releaser benefit of their buyers sales? They got their CSC when said buyer bought from them: I don't see why I should be getting more CSC after their slotting. We aren't responsible for people selling their items for higher than slot price. In fact, we even put the rule of not reselling "our" items for more than slot price (not all, but a lot). And I know I'm literally contradicting myself, but reselling is a normal part of a market.

I'm generally speaking here but we make limited batches because the market is unpredictable. While our first colour of a wig/etc may sell extra fast, the more we make, the harder it gets to sell them. We bend backward to make bigger batches: no takers - we can only fill one batch and send the rest to shop ... in hopes of selling. The market is not closed. There are a lot of CW onsite but we are not a big group of releasers. It's always the same people and it puts pressure. We may seem elitist but the market is elitist itself because CW can be resold/traded.

Limited = difficult to get = good reselling price = elitism? Unlimited = easy to get = pawn shop/price lowering/difficult to sell = ???

I honestly don't see enough "casual buyers" on here, posting. I think there are more lurkers who don't want to be involved in the drama, than not, and I don't blame them one bit. Being a more "casual buyer" myself, who only has the means to buy a slot once a month, or twice if the item REALLY piques my interest, I just wanted to contribute what I've seen on my end.

**note, I'm not going to go through and quote people. Honestly, I have too much in RL to do today and don't have time so forgive me if it bothers you but I've actually been keeping up w/ this thread and know what's been posted. I also hate calling out people. That's not what this is supposed to be about.

For the person(s) who said that they received a comment about not buying/slotting on an item b/c it had more than X amount of copies - THAT is the definition of elitism. On my end of the lesser knowns, more casual buyers, we don't always have the money at the time of the release to get what we want and in saying that, our favorites lean towards those who have the capacity to put more in their shop than slotted for, or make them unlimited. I understand that resale value may take a crap from this - BUT I as well as many others (whom I frequently buy from in the R200 forums) already understand that you're not going to get slot price back. If I didn't have the money then, I'm certainly not going to have it a week later when you decide that you can't work w/ the item OR you just bought it to support the releaser. That kind of turnaround is often seen w/ a select few so again... not here to call people out. I do not see those kind of people on my end who will only buy if there's a limited amount and more often than not, I see a turnoff towards those limited items.

There are several releasers whom I adore, not only b/c what they release is more 'my style', but also b/c of the way they conduct business - which is precisely what this is. Casual buyers are less likely to buy a newly released item at slot price when it's been around for awhile (it gives us time to think about whether we really want it) and the majority of us never wanted to pay slot to begin with. That is the fault of Subeta for making submission prices so high from the very get-go. When I sell items, I already know I'm not going to recover what I put into them. That's how it is in RL. Period.

Unless you have s/thing I missed.. or I just CHANCED upon an item I missed in the PS, which is sadly ending.. then slot price (in the R200 forum, especially) is and always will be for the "casual buyer", weighing in on how badly you want(ed) that item. I won't even mention the items that I didn't like at first (and mentioned this to others who felt the same way) and when I started to see it more often, I grew attached to said item. Can't tell you how frustrating that is - from a buyers standpoint. (but hey, looks like I saved money in the long run :P )

I would call myself a casual buyer (and a lurker XD), but I am also a person of the persuasion who lays one eyeball on "unlimited" CWs and walks the other way. I don't think that's elitism, I think that's common sense about value. If i'm going to use real money to buy CSC and then CWs, I'd like the item to retain its value (i don't need bidding wars or selling things for 2k, but I don't want the opposite either). If an item has unlimited copies in a shop, you can about bet no one is going to pay me slot price. I could maybe trade for something of the same price if I want to bother trying that route (and I don't). I'm actually more likely to engage with a CW maker if they have higher batches, but only if they're doing an initial run and periodic releases so there is less chance the market will be saturated and I'll be unable to sell my item for slot or close to it (not that I do a lot of selling XD).

I also buy from the pawn, when I can be tempted into it all because I don't have to deal with people, slotting, groups, hassle, drama. I can peer around when i get the urge, do my research and decide from the price point if it is a viable purchase in the risk vs reward of shiny category. I'm much happier picking up a CW for 3-400 than trying to get a slot on something and putting out 600+. There is much less farther for the price to fall that way. I also buy very specifically themed Cw's for a friend's gallery and the pawn is an easy way to find several for good prices instead of having to hunt through trades or in the selling forum.

The other benefit of window shopping in the pawn is that it also means that EVERY item I see in there is buyable and I am never left to sit and drool over some peoples gorgeous privates, because if it is in the pawn and I like it enough to buy it, it's mine. =0) That avoids another whole headache of the forums and CW shops right there.

I hope you don't mind my two cents. ^.^

I'd say I don't think most of us are too worried about people reselling the cws we release as much as it's not getting people to slot because of their inability to resell for even close to the price they paid. I wouldn't, as both a releaser and a buyer, be interested in account-bound cws. I know it was brought up to staff at one point RE: privates and they said they didn't see it working out and also that they don't recognize/acknowledge privates. I don't think they'd be for it on a massive scale with any CWs honestly.

And I don't care about or want anything from someone who resells items I released publicly. If they make a profit, that's totally fine. I just want people buying from me to have some measure of security that when they buy, if they can't work with it they don't lose all of what they spent buying it. I've lost quite a bit on resales myself so I understand that worry when slotting.

The account bound CWs was more of a thought experiment, and I'm glad it shed some light about how tradable CWs is a complex matter. Thanks for your replies. I think account bound CWs might be best for niche uses, such as gifts, but it's not going to popular for buyers even if the CW quantities are unlimited.

According to Keith's news post, the explanation why the pawn shop will no longer sell openly was because of the makers concerns about pawn shop facilitating CW devaluation. I don't know how serious this is, but it sure brought up lots of controversy, and even conspiracy claims that a select group of creators or the site's interests were put ahead of the buyers.

I realized, overall closing the pawn shop is more of a disadvantage to both sides. Furthermore, most creators are buyers too. As long as CWs are tradable, there will be issues with the effects of reselling, like the pawn shop. I don't know how exactly Subeta is planning to replace the pawn shop with and if it will be ready right away. Also, it will be no piece of cake to provide a better experience than the pawn shop.

PS. I didn't talk about elitism, and didn't want to discuss that in depth. It's a social issue, and according to different people their experiences can vary widely.

While I could agree that for things like gifts account bound could be reasonable, sometimes folks still end up wanting to do sell/trade/regift or to send the item back to the releaser because they can't use it and figure the person who released it could send to someone else. I will say I'm biased though in the discussion regarding account bound items, in that I really think that's a feature best reserved for items added to collections and to the loyalty items we receive annually from the site. Beyond that, I like the open market.

The pawn was it's own kind of devastating, but staff made the decision to close pretty much without input. They mentioned it was something they'd been thinking about for awhile as most things there just sat around forever until they hit the absolute cheapest. Keith did say he plans to bring the items out several times a year for special events/sales/etc, so anything pawned will still reappear somehow later down the road.

It definitely unleashed a storm of emotion. They've got the ability to price cws in users shops with CSC instead of/in addition to sP in the works. It's currently being tested on the dev site. That will make accessibility (without having to venture to forums) a lot easier I think, and also make it easier to see what prices things are being offered at/help with the dynamic pricing on the resale market.

They're also working on a database with all of the cws that will be easy to search (and can be adjusted based on layer/other things and be searchable) - that's taking a little bit longer because it's more involved, but is facilitated by the new wardrobe and will be able to help folks find the cheapest one available etc.

Keith said the reason the Pawn shop was closing is because it devalues the CW over time. But in the examples below the Pawn shop price is more than the same items being sold in user shops. So, who is devaluing the items more now? Sure, if these items sit in the Pawn shop unbought for months the price is going to go down but in user shops it is already down. How is this helping the value of the items?

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[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/onepepsifan/pawn2_zpsp80ds6zs.jpg[/IMG]

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Making items account bound is just silly in my opinion. Why would I want to buy an item that I couldn't sell/trade later when I was no longer in need of said item?

I really look forward to having a searchable database of the cws which I hope will make finding items much easier. I wonder (since I haven't read all replies) if this database will have prices listed? I would love to see that since finding prices for some items no longer for sale is hard for us casual cw buyers who want to sell the items in our shops.

has a database in the works--it's unfortunately in the CW Creators forum thread, so it hasn't been readily accessible by everyone.

The database currently documents all the CWs on site that are currently available for purchase, items "not in stock" per se, will not show up. I'm not entirely sure if that is a feature that they will add, so if someone else has been following the database updates more closely, please pipe in!

In regards to devaluing CWs, how the specific users in your examples price their CWs in their shops out of our hands. I don't think anyone has really indicated that closing the Pawn Shop will 100% completely get rid of the issue, but it is a start.

And I agree, having CWs account-bound isn't quite sensible!

Thanks for the info. Why would the database now show older items too? That doesn't seem right to me. I suppose everyone just wants to see what is available now but these items are still out there, just not showing any for sale in shops, pawn, trades but people still have them in their accounts.

I think it might have something to do with the coding? I'm not a software engineer or high level coder myself, but I think it would be difficult and load heavy in order to look into every single users' account to check if they have a particular item.

In additional to that, wouldn't that also be a little intrusive?

If you mean in the sense that CWs should be at its basic level, documented for their existence and how many copies there are, then I do agree, that would be a handy feature. However, to document their selling price would be difficult as well, as some releasers may offer a discount to first batches and then sell the second batch at "regular price", so it would be difficult to determine which price of the CW the database should log.

OK, I have to agree with you there on the pricing. I hadn't considered about the first batch lower price thing and so on.

I guess for example of what I was talking about is this: I have an item for sale in my CW shop and when I do a search there are no others that show up which means no one else is selling that item. So, now that I am not a maker or releaser of CWs, I don't really know what general price the item might sell for. I try doing searches in the forum and hopefully come up with a price that is fair for all.

I guess this is what I meant about items not for sale but still out there, so would they show in the database?

@/CARAWICK

Ahh, I see what you mean.

I think that would be something they would need to integrate into the database. Since the selling of CW items in User Shops is still a rather new feature, they maybe have to play around a little to see if that is possible.

I'll take a second look at the CW creators thread to see if this is something that is going to be integrated, if not, I'll make the suggestion.

Thanks for clearing that up! c:

[edit]Syntax error. =___=

Thank you!!!

As someone whose only CWs were gifted because the entire market was way too overwhelming, here's my two cents:

If this change was meant to attract new users to CWs (by this I don't just mean new to subeta. I mean new to the CW market) it'll fail. Using the forums to search for something is only useful if you know what you're looking for. Otherwise it's an annoying mess to work through

If there's no central, easily searchable database (e.g. searching by layer, colour, etc) then, again, no new users will buy.

If the items are locked to your account after you buy then there is absolutely no incentive for new users to buy. An incredibly expensive item that has only one use with no way to get rid of it after? Useless

I think what sellers are not realizing is that they only exist because of buyers. if it becomes a hassle, annoying, or otherwise unappealing to buy CWs then the market will dry up. The only way for it to survive now is for new lifeblood to enter the market and start buying. These changes do the opposite of that

Numerous times staff and other members has posted here and in comments that a database is coming. And actually sales are up a LOT already so this IS working.

Staff has promised a lot of things that are "coming", but have yet to show up. If it actually is created then that's awesome, until then it's still a concern and a "what if/maybe".

And do you have data or something re: the increased sales? All I've seen is that people who already bought CWs are now buying more CWs. Nothing about people entering the market