I voiced most of my thoughts about this issue on the news announcement so I've been silently lurking here to read the continued discussion but just wanted to post to give some love. You're a gem!

Edit: You got a forum point while making a post! Check out the shop here! (Instant Karma!)

I feel like we're being forced to argue semantics on word choices a lot and it's making me ridiculously frustrated and I commend you for continuing to try to explain things and also still ask for input.

❤️❤️ I love that, they're statements of fact, not complaints, not brags, simple statements of facts to help combat the misconception.

-passes baton-

Thank you guys T^T; If anything, I hope everyone here realizes that we are here to communicate with you all and that we're not all evil people sitting on CSC thrones.

We want to help with the problems that we know exist in our community but also we all need to be clear on misconceptions and biases that exist on BOTH sides.

Oh heeeeeeelllll no haha -gives that baton back-

I did this on the news comments, I'm tired -yawns-

But yeah, I agree with that statement there. Obviously there's a communication problem. I hesitate to say on both sides because I'm a part of both buyers and sellers and highly active on both ends right now, so I don't really see a side difference, but clearly there's some sort of disconnect happening somewhere that I haven't experienced in recent years.

I'm wondering if part of the disconnect is that a group of folks has had the chance to think about this and discuss it and come to some sort of terms with it in that private forum thread while the rest of us are just finding out now, and having to come to terms with it a whole lot faster while simultaneously trying to figure out/explain where we're coming from to help find a consensus that helps the site.

Creators who have been following the private thread presumably are in the "okay, how do we fix/change/make this work" while some of us are still in the "HOLY...WAIT WHAT NOW?" phase, and it can be difficult to find common ground when the starting places are so different; the focus is on different needs and hence, communication problems as both groups try to figure out why we're talking past each other. TBH, as part of the "wait, what?" group, I don't really feel heard and am not sure that the concerns/issues of the customer side are really known or taken into account, and being vocal now is our chance. (I'm sure they are taken into account, in a macro sense, but...well, there's that thread, and the lack of explanation about this decision)

That alone is kind of a divide, really. I'm actually more surprised that folks are surprised that there is a divide.

The back and forth is frustrating, yeah, but honestly? That's how we all get to be on the same page, by talking it out. Assuming there is a same page to be on. :)

If I'm just saying the same things as everyone else, then that tells you it's a problem. I didn't read through this entire thread, so I don't know what every post said - I'm just sharing my opinion.

"but it is not all on us to make it the easiest thing in the world for you all either. "

Then I guess we just disagree as to how commerce works, because IMO a seller wants to do everything possible to make it easy for their customers, so they can attract a wider customer base and keep their existing ones - especially when the market is saturated with sellers. I spend hundreds of dollars on CSC a month - and while I don't expect ANYONE to cater to me as an individual , I bet there are plenty of so called "casual users" like myself who buy CSC but are just turned off by the CW market. And if sellers aren't trying to tap into that customer base, that's just their loss.

IMO, the elitist vibe comes from private releases or friends only releases, private ping groups, some sellers giving slot preferences to friends or repeat customers, etc. Granted, I haven't tried to buy a CW from the forums recently, so my experiences come from at least a year ago, but I'm turned off by sellers flaunting their exclusive items and advertising them on their boards when only .0001% of Subeta can actually buy them. I'm also not a fan of inflated prices. If you are, as you say, doing it because you love it, then I don't see why some items start at like, 800 csc. I also don't like that releasers think they have a right to dictate what you do with the item once you buy it, i.e. not selling it, not pawning it, etc. To me, once I own it, I can do what I want with it.

My biggest turn-off was when I joined a few ping groups and was constantly fighting to slot. A releaser would only do 1 or 2 batches, even when the demand was crazy high, and then you'd have 50 users all competing for those 10-15 slots (after the obligatory friend slots, of course), and that's just no fun. That's a form of elitism - knowing there's a demand, but instead choosing to make your item limited release so only a small number are on site, making it more "valuable" and "exclusive". That's also why sellers would charge ridiculous prices on the r200 thread - because people want the item and have no choice but to pay 2k csc for it.

Okay, love <3 I hear you and trust me, after being verbally thrown around for a while I know there are many problems haha. I mean this all in a friendly way and I hope we can continue communicating as such. :)

" I bet there are plenty of so called "casual users" like myself who buy CSC but are just turned off by the CW market. And if sellers aren't trying to tap into that customer base, that's just their loss. "

I don't believe you quite fall into the category of "casual user" if you are spending hundreds on CSC a month. I was more referring to those that MAYBE can afford $10 of CSC every so often (think every couple months) and those who do not purchase CSC (a great part of Subeta).

However, yes, if we are failing to "tap into" the user base that is spending hundreds on CSC a month, then we are very much at a loss. I really dislike thinking of the CW community as commerce because honestly, what kind of real-world "commerce" churns out products at a constant loss? Because that is what (for many releasers) CWs are.

"sellers flaunting their exclusive items" I really haven't seen this around. If that is all the elitist vibe is coming from, then I believe we are at a loss of what to do next. Private releases / choosing who we want to slot first is a RIGHT of those of us that choose to spend our time creating items for the site and for ourselves. I was hoping that there are other issues we can address - private items are not something I wish to argue. We have our opinions on the matter but as I have said before, it is the right of those releasing the art. It would be akin to asking anyone who creates profile art on site to give access to everyone rather than just who paid for it or who they would like to give it to. It makes little sense and taking away this right would drive an overwhelming majority of CW creators away.

"That's a form of elitism - knowing there's a demand, but instead choosing to make your item limited release so only a small number are on site, making it more "valuable" and "exclusive"."

This we can agree on. However, the average releaser has no idea if their item is going to be crazy valuable before they actually post about batch limits. Your experience was probably with a very well established releaser with a very large ping group / support base. (Also, the goal of all releasers is to FILL batches. Increasing batches has the effect of slowing fills as well as decreasing interest because of decreased market resale value. As you seem to enjoy talking about commerce, this should be clear.) If you are unhappy with this, move your support elsewhere. There are many many releasers that struggle to fill even their first batches on equally beautiful art.

Still, I haven't seen proposed solutions listed and just a reiteration of what many people have had problems with. I will reiterate my own / staff ideas of solutions for you instead.

These are the problems that many have (and I take issue with some as well!!!)

1. "Elitism" and "Exclusivity" of the CW community
2. Difficult to navigate forums
3. Price of CSC

Solutions or Mitigations

1. Because individual sellers can do little besides influence their own releases, this is going to be a lot up to our purchasers and buyers. Move your support to shops that represent what makes you happy.
2. There has been talk in the creator thread of creating a stickied thread at the top with all current releases. I don't know if this will be at all implemented since it would require basically a mod's worth of work to maintain it with the amount of releases we have, but we shall see. Another small solution is that staff is working on creating item directories as well as user priced shops.
3. Events + Giveaways (already being done - either within user pings or forums - I've given out 300 CSC TODAY alone.)

Please, what would you like made clear/heard?

I'm ambivalent towards this. It doesn't bother me that the pawn shop is closing, it never bothered me when my CWs showed up in it.

As for the private releasing and what not? That was what CWs were originally meant to be. Staff will 100% confirm this. CWs were originally intended to be a friends only thing, the staff didn't anticipate the market that would be created by it. So while I dislike the elitism that's come with some of the privates, the privates themselves I don't find a problem since that was the original intention of the custom wearables to begin with

I think the reason profits are being brought into the discussion is that some CW creators/releasers are complaining offsite (and I believe in the new comments) that the pawn shop was taking away from potential profits because people weren't buying directly from users. So if that was a reason (even partly) for the pawn shop being closed, then I think it's fair to bring it up.

re: private items - is there not a better way to go about it though? Like, I get it that people want them. But it makes it very hard to figure out if an item is private release or not when browsing Subetalodge or the wardrobe - or even the recently released CW thread. The worst is when you fall in love with an item and then find out it's private :( Like, I don't know if it's feasible or not, but maybe have a different rarity setting for private items - or something in the description to mark it as private?

waves I wanna address that concern - the amount of time spent discussing the pawn and the pawn closing was really actually not a lot. It was not actively spent discussing with staff, it was a thread that someone had compiled of all of the things/suggestions to refresh/rejuvenate the market. Someone mentioned that the Pawn was a big issue, but we didn't really have a way to combat the problems it created. It was roughly 48 hours after someone suggested the issue of the pawn and Keith's initial response that he decided to close it:

The things he asked were basically: should we close it 100% or still allow selling (prominent opinion was to allow selling still)

That's really it. I'm sure he watched the rest of the discussion, but we weren't asked to give more input than that. He also only told that thread that it was happening about 5 minutes before he posted the news comment:

I don't know if that helps alleviate any of your worry or not, but he came into a thread that was really just artists and releasers brainstorming how to revive a dying market and was like "this one thing you mentioned, we've been discussing it already among ourselves and we're thinking of going forward with it". There wasn't some big crazy elaborate discussion for days/weeks/months behind closed doors.

Suggestions to fix the ease issues were of course made during and after as well, but there really wasn't a mass amount of input from anyone outside of staff and it was just staff letting us know they'd already been thinking about that and then deciding to do it.

Okay, I think there was some misunderstanding of what was being said. Nobody said potential profits, they said that the Pawn took away potential slotters on items because they think "hey, I can just get it later for less in the pawn probably". Or they feared that if they slotted on something and then ended up not being able to work with it, they wouldn't be able to resell it for at/close to what they paid for their slot because of the pawn.

Over and over and over I have watched the artists, creators, and submitters explain (even the more prolific ones like ) that we are all operating at a loss. Artists are often making below minimum wage for the work they're doing. Submitters (especially non-artist submitters who have to commission their pieces) are not making profits. There's literally 0 profit to be found in a single batch item unless you resell for a jacked up price (and that is buyers doing that, not the submitters - so you need to take a hard look before you blame us for that). Actually, in most single batch items if you didn't make the art yourself, you actually have to still supply some CSC to submit it on site. At best, you're possibly going to be able to submit while slotting yourself at 0.

So, despite everyone everywhere explaining this, somehow folks are still holding onto this notion that we're already making profit and that the pawn was depriving us of "more profit" but literally there is not profit happening. And it's very clearly outlined in the doc that so kindly compiled and posted.

Can I just

Because yes? Literally in so many ways? You can look in my shop and see how many CWs I've released, and I can count maybe three? that I've actually got legitimate profit off of? And I'm not an artist, I'm a releaser. I'm spending money for the commissions themselves, and then spending money to cover slots. So let's drop the 'greedy CW releasers' thing.

The only CW that's consistently given me any kind of profit, out of every one I've released, is the trashy harlequinn wig. The only one. And that was only after I put it in my shop.

{All: Please read this to understand the CW Process.}

@ JAY

I'm intrigued that that was the only thing in my response to you that you commented on--and I do agree it is a fair point. However some individuals are using this reason alone to attack the releasers, saying that "they should just stop what they're doing if they're going to complain about not making profits".

In regards to private items, yes, I myself would like to know if an item is private as well, and it's impossible to tell with the current system the site has, as there is no "label" for them.

Regarding your response to @ Pika , I'm sensing that you've read my previous response to you, since the "profits" paragraph was the last.

Like I said, we are not responsible to spoon-feed you. We are not going to go door-to-door and ask you to buy our CWs, it's harassment and we can all understand that.

Private releases are private releases--they are private items. You yourself can seem to agree that this should be changed in a way where someone can find out if it's a private via some sort of rarity indicator. I have personally not seen specific preference given to friends or repeat customers, barring that they ping their ping group first.

I have seen 1 person's set of dresses go for beyond 700CSC in the last year. One person. The submission cost is 5000CSC for that item. If I can be confident that someone will purchase my item for that price and have it be worth their while, I would set it at that price, but alas, no one does.

Any public CW operates under that notion. I have a private CW that was given to friends/individuals who have been supporting my CW journey for Lumi, as well as copies that were raffled off in my public ping group. It is a token of gratitude. I think the least I could ask of someone for their token is to not sell/trade/pawn it off and just to return it to me?

I understand this feeling and have seen individuals who have done this. Unfortunately, it is their choice. It also means that they won't be able to profit more on that item, even knowing that they will do well. In addition to that, should someone sell it off for 2k in a r200 thread, the releaser still does not benefit from it.

I make my batches small because that's about how many people will buy it. There is a certain balance between the desirability of an item versus how many batches "should" exist. If an item is deemed an "average" item that garners only moderate interest, there is no incentive for the releaser to have more than 2 batches in most cases. When you indicate batch numbers more than what you can visibly sell, you risk the mentality of "I can buy this later, because 'enough' people are slotting on it and there are a lot of batches left that I can purchase later".

@ Reaper @ Aztec I see you. ❤️

-all the consolation hugs- I love that wig by the by. I think my held whiskey bottles may actually be finally turning a "profit" as in I probably broke even now? IDK, that's pretty much it and I'm probably wrong haha. I don't remember what I paid to have them done but idc because I wear those all the time.

❤️ all the love to you

Say it louder for the people in the back. Depending on how the CW was made, I sometimes have to pay slot price for the item I'm submitting. But, that's okay!! Because in the end I'm supporting the creators of the item, and I get a cool wearable out of it. In the end, that's what custom wears are about -- supporting creators in what they do. P: Despite it's reputation, the community is, as a whole, is one centered around creativity!!

For all the bad, all the drama, and everything else, there's still a lot of good that has come out of custom wears. Cool wearables aside, I've (and many others!!) have made numerous friendships because of the custom wear community. It's not perfect, but I don't think the community is as bad as it's apparent reputation.

I'll share an incident that happened to me a couple times before I wised up.. I opened up lots of slots for people, several batches worth and they filled pretty quickly. First batch went off without a hitch. Second batch as well. But by the time I got to the third filled batch and the payment pings went out, I had a handful of potential buyers holding up the line. Many messages later, I ended up just deleting those who either couldn't or wouldn't pay, getting the item to those who had paid and had been waiting for some time and covered the rest of the slots with my own money. It ticked me off enough to start limiting my releases to one or two batches. I make little to no profit off my items but I DGAF actually. I just want my stuff to go to people who like it as well shrugs

Just my six pennies :D

- Love your HA hun!

It feels like I'm screaming from the rooftops but the wind is snatching it all away honestly haha.

Thank you! Also I have/had that issue too - on items with more batches, I tend to lose several slotters (even if I get the item out and approved quickly) to the ether. Then I'm left with "well, do I do it this way or that way to get it out to the folks who still want their copy?" I will say the CW Shop has helped, but also mine is so cluttered with stuff that cleared out that I'm kinda loathe to keep doing it.

I'd love it if could let us permanently remove/retire items out of our CW Shops because I have a lot of stuff with 0 copies available left to sell or things that were not that popular to begin with or things that were single batch but still didn't fill a batch so I had to direct to afford getting it on site.

- That's the most frustrating part IMO. You want to have enough for people to buy but then they either don't slot at all or they do but can't or won't pay. That's why I found that limiting my releases was the best way to make sure there was enough copies for me and my friends and a few extra people who might have wanted it. And you have to admit, when we release, our friends are usually the first to come and support us by buying our items. I'm sorry I can't provide enough copies for the entire site but for majority of my stuff, they can be resold. :D

Pretty much. Also, people end up not being able to use things and they resell, most for slot or below. Like, if I missed a thing, I'll try to buy it later from someone who bought too much like I usually do haha.

That's why I'm thankful for the CW shops as they're set up now. I only need to fill one batch to get it on site, and shove the rest of them in the shop to slowly be bought out. I wish the CW shops were easier to search through, but they're way more convenient this way than they were when it was just one giant shop.

Hello! I have no idea if I posted my idea to the public yet. But oh well let me just copy/pasta my idea (maybe staff will do it if I shove it everywhere lmao)

Here is the copy/pasta.

I think something like that would please you (and a lot of people, myself included)

---

I'd also like the CW shops to be modified in a way that searching for something is easier. Search options such as layers (head, overchest, chest etc) would be 100% handy and reccomended for my patience.

And also excuse my bread but what the fuck is a blacklist? Is this a thing :|? I'm a sweet summer child I guess. I've never blacklisted and never will.