Okay. Pbbbbtttt. -pats own cheeks- Look. I say this as a person who has always liked CWs and one who genuinely wants the CW market to do well - it's not just a market that turns out beautiful items that I'd like to own, it's a market that provides steady income to an avatar site I have loved for years.

That said. As it stands right now, the CW market is founded on the principle of scarcity, and to top that off, it's an opaque community where cliques and elitism run rampant, one that actively discourages casual users from joining. That is not a viable, sustainable market. So many people, both here and in the news post, have stated that the pawn shop was the only way for them to find CWs for one reason or another - they found the forums to be too much trouble because the shops were poorly organized, unfriendly, or closed to anyone outside a certain ping group, they never had the CSC on hand to snatch up a limited-batch item (and lbr, the vast majority of items are limited batch even though I've been told it's free to submit to shop after it's been submitted in a batch), or they just don't want to deal with 40+ pings per day to be notified of batches which they may not have time to examine critically before the slots are full.

Pika, I'm not pinging you here because I know you're keeping an eye on this thread anyway: I know what you're going to say. "Not all CW releasers!" Okay, that's great! And very true, because I know a few who are very nice. So not all of them, but apparently enough of them that this is a recurring theme for many people who tried to get into CWs. You yourself have said several things that imply that the CW releasers view themselves as elites who do not want the 'casual' user to have access to their items, and you yourself say you don't think CWs are aimed at the casual user. I say that's a mistake.

The CW market itself, slotters and submitters alike, needs to rethink how it handles things. CWs obviously are not a niche, private market anymore; they've exploded, with over 20k CWs on the site that more and more people are interested in. I don't think that's a bad thing! I don't even think it's a bad thing that some of those are limited-release items. But if the CW market wants to revitalize itself, I think it should look into ways to encourage casual users to support CW submitters. This might require some changes on Subeta's side - larger batches, a way for users to support items submitted directly to shop, maybe a procedure to submit more batches of an item that there was more demand for than expected - but it is not just a case where the casual user is mistaken about the true nature of the CW community.

tl;dr, a lot needs to change, and part of that is the elitist nature of the CW community.

Haha I have taken up camp here apparently. -pitches tent-

I see your point.... but... (you know this was coming :P)

First: "You yourself have said several things that imply that the CW releasers view themselves as elites who do not want the 'casual' user to have access to their items" No, I don't believe I have said this that I don't want people ACCESS to our items, it's just that because CWs rely on such a heavy chain of labor that it is not feasible to make them as widely accessible as everyone would like. CWs will never be completely widely accessible unless they literally become site-released items - which will likely never happen because then no artist would want to release anything for a couple sPs. If I did say something implying this, I apologize as this was not my intent.

Sure, I agree on a lot of your points - the CW community needs to change for the long term. However, I was mostly defending the closing of the pawn shop as a positive step in the right direction (provided the promised changes are happening). If none of the changes Subeta has promised its creators are coming, believe me, I would be the first to step up and say something about it.

I am not denying the CW community can often be "elitist" (I seriously hate this word). But that is not something we as individuals have a right to demand they change - private items ARE THE RIGHT of those who have spent real money to release art. What I have instead been saying is to support the shops and individuals that you feel can represent the ideals that you buyers would like to support.

Also, I don't believe that more and more people are interested - if there were, batch filling would not be an issue and we would probably not be having this conversation. CSC is stupidly expensive, batches are barely filling, and pawn sales are not nearly as large as many of you believe it to be. It was simply an easy and in my opinion, lazy, way of browsing what we have spent so much time creating and releasing. Those who are actually legitimately interested in CWs are those who still slotting - most of those who slot nowadays are just releasers / artists themselves. I don't know how we can encourage all casual users to enter our forums without first giving them the CSC to do so. Even if the forum were the most welcoming and open place on virtual Earth, I don't believe that many users would still be able to access all that they wanted to.

(But yes, as I have stated above and in other places - the negative experiences of users needs to change. However, there should not be unrealistic expectations on either side. Private items will likely continue to exist. Unwelcoming boards will vary by perception and releasers. Experiences will vary by user attitude. It is all very nebulous. We cannot cater to every user (it's impossible, we're not gods) - if users were more willing to actually stop by and spend time in the forums, they would quickly find places where they could feel welcomed. )

" This might require some changes on Subeta's side - larger batches, a way for users to support items submitted directly to shop, maybe a procedure to submit more batches of an item that there was more demand for than expected - but it is not just a case where the casual user is mistaken about the true nature of the CW community."

But it IS the case where the casual user is mistaken. The casual user has NO IDEA the amount of work that goes into submitting a CW. I once again recommend the document I posted in my previous post (hur hur post in post). What we need is for everyone to be on the same page. I'm going to politely address each of your proposed changes.

a) Larger batches: Larger batches = more CSC spent potentially on releaser side = more people needed to fill; Batches don't fill as they are, how would this help specifically? In fact, batch sizes are likely to decrease soon. b) Users support: This actually is the batch concept - releasers generally do not have to spend CSC to submit things via batches if they are filled. Which again, they are having a hard time filling as of now. c) Submitting more batches after: Wouldn't this peeve you as a buyer of the limited batch? By releasing after like, just kidding, this isn't actually limited at all, wouldn't you feel like you got the short end of the stick? You could've just waited for a later batch but you slotted earlier. There is a reason why this rule exists and can result in warnings if releasers do something like this.

Basically, I agree that change needs to occur - but given that so many users have no idea why certain things are logistically IMPOSSIBLE or very illogical, change can seem unilateral and like we're all greedy money-mongers out to make the most money out of all the rest of you. But we're not. We're 99% real and nice people who just like making pretty things - and a lot of the negativity has affected me and a lot of my releasers.

Change is a two way street. Accusing releasers and unilaterally asking us to change is going to get us nowhere. A lot of us have already given up on trying to reason with users who refuse to understand our side of the issue.

I apologize if I misunderstood any of your points but that is how I have interpreted it. Feel free to correct me.

What a blockpost. Whoops. <3

I read that post, and I have been doing plenty of research lately because I've been looking into submitting my own CWs. For the record, I have no intention of putting my CWs up as rare, limited edition items just to encourage people to buy them - I've been brainstorming ideas to keep up demand in the current market without catering to exactly the mindset that I hate so much in the CW community. I've been reading CW threads. I've been speaking to CW artists that I know.

I am here, as a person who has done her research, standing here with the hours I've put into looking at this, and I say that the work you're talking about is overblown. The most agonizing part is organizing the thread, and then the waiting. If submitting CWs is killing you as an artist or as a submitter, politely, you may want to consider another hobby.

To reply to your reply:

a) Larger batches, if the cost of submission was kept the same, would spread the cost among more people; if the submitter then put the item into their shop, which is free once it's been batched, they can guarantee more profit for themselves and a pre-purchase discount for the people who slotted. That's an incentive to buy now, without preventing others from purchasing it later. I don't see why this is an issue since submitting directly to shop is so, so much cheaper - 1600 for a dress, right? And you can submit as unlimited. Obviously the link between number of items and CSC cost to submit is entirely up to Subeta. b) Lower cost per initial slot would encourage more people to slot early and open up slotting to a much wider range of users. Submitting to shop is much cheaper than batches already. A way to directly fund that on the slotter side would allow more submitters to push items to their shop with guaranteed profit. I'd imagine this more for unlimited or large releases. c) No, it wouldn't bother me one bit, because I am directly, outstatedly against the idea of a scarcity market. You've stated that most single-batch items are released as single-batch because the submitter is worried that they won't be able to fill multiple batches. I think that's bullshit (*), especially since you can push the item to your shop after you've batched it. So especially with that in mind, I don't give a single goshdarn good golly if someone gets a copy of a limited item I paid for! They're paying for it, too, so good for them, and good for the submitter for having enough interest to release another batch! I hope the slotter is able to make a beautiful HA with their new CW, and I hope the submitter can use that profit to potentially release another item I may be interested in down the road.

And that attitude you assumed I'd have, that is exactly the attitude I hate from the CW community. That exclusive, elitist attitude that states, "I want this rare item so I can show it off in front of all the people who didn't have the [time, energy, money] to purchase this item!" This is a pixel site. These are not real items, and they are not permanent. I spend my money here knowing full well that this site is unlikely to be around when I die, and that my money is going to my immediate, but temporary, entertainment; it's money well spent, but I am not paying for a physical item I can take to the grave.

Finally: You might have noticed I never suggested CW submitters were making bank off their shops, and that's because I believe when you when you say they aren't. What I am arguing is that CW submitters could make more profit, more consistently, if the CW culture shifted to be less exclusionary and offer lower cost of entry to the casual user. People are interested in CWs. Look at the people in the news thread who were able to purchase CWs from the pawn when they otherwise couldn't, and imagine how much better the CW community would be doing if we were able to offer those people a way to support CW submitters directly, not throw their money back into Subeta's pawn void.

*ETA clarification on 'I think that's bullshit': I think it's bullshit that the scarcity market is what drives submitters to this. I know they do this specifically to force slotters to put down the CSC for it.

Wait wait. Before I respond to your post, how did it turn into this? :( I didn't mean any of what I said as insulting or degrading and I don't like how the discussion tone has turned. Please, let's stay friendly, I did not mean to anger you and I don't believe my post merited such a strong reaction. I'm sorry if it came off that way -hugs-

"I am here, as a person who has done her research, standing here with the hours I've put into looking at this, and I say that the work you're talking about is overblown. The most agonizing part is organizing the thread, and then the waiting. If submitting CWs is killing you as an artist or as a submitter, politely, you may want to consider another hobby."

I respectfully ask you to reconsider your words. Submitters, if they are not artists, need to spend time commissioning and finding artists to make the art. Organizing the thread and its upkeep takes time as well. Not everyone has the luxury of that time. Anyways, I was more talking about the art aspect - as an artist, it takes hours to create an item and its revisions. That last sentence was unnecessary.

a) I see, you were talking about decreasing the cost per item to submit. That's not something we can control and is something that has been brought to staff attention already many times. We want lower costs too, believe me :( b) You know, you're right. It's why we have been asking for lower submission costs so WE can lower the costs on our end too. Again, as I said in a), it is not something we can control :( Also, DtS submissions are unlimited items only. c) While you and I share that mindset, it is not a popular one. Pushing an item to the shop after you slot is releasing more batches and you would need to announce that you are releasing multiple batches in order to do so. You would otherwise be warned for scamming. There is a lock feature that prevents you from releasing more batches than you indicate when you first submit the item. The problem with it is releasing more batches means your limited item loses resale value. It may not be important to you if you are keeping it anyway, but to many buyers, this can matter.

:( I know. I share your mindset!!! Please. I'm just... acting as a dartboard here. I don't think that is really the attitude most people who have limited items have, but I'm sorry that is the impression we can give off.

Ok. I'm not 100% sure I can agree with your last statement (as far as the lower cost of entry goes) since all we can do is speculate but yes - I have hopes that CW culture can be less exclusionary with the help of all the buyers that care about the less exclusionary environment. It is exclusive because the current (people who are actually slotting) seem to like having access to limited items. If enough purchasers supported only public items - these artists / releasers would be able to release more and could eventually take over the predominant culture. What I have been trying to argue is that instead of trying to ask the handful of releasers to take a huge financial /emotional / whatever risk to just swear off private items / limited batches and lose any incentive to continue releasing, is for those who are purchasing to purchase intelligently and understand who they are supporting.

<3

And I'm sorry as well - actually, right after I made the post, I went to ask others if it sounded a little too stern (and I added that edit at the end since I was unclear). I don't mean to be terse, but I can be over text; I really wish I could have this conversation face-to-face, since tone is so hard to imply. I admit that I got frustrated hearing you repeat that it's not all CW submitters, but I do appreciate you being here to have this discussion! I'll try to do better in this post.

I am actually an artist. I've my own non-CW shop to maintain, so I know the work it takes, and honestly, I draw CWs for fun! I find it relaxing, because the guidelines are simple, the base is provided, and there's a clear size restriction. Not that it can't still be frustrating, but there's a lot I don't have to worry about when I'm designing and drawing fake clothes, which I appreciate. If you are killing yourself to make clothes for this site, really, there are other things you can do. I don't say that to be mean - Subeta should be fun, not a nightmare. :/

I do know you guys want lower costs! Like I said, I know this isn't entirely something the CW submitters can change all on their own. Subeta has some of the most receptive staff I've ever seen, so I do hope that something can be worked out.

And I'm so sorry! You're shouldering the weight of the CW community right now on a very controversial front. It's very nice to hear that you're of a similar mindset when it comes to limited-release items. I do know about the warning system - I was mainly thinking of items that are limited specifically because the submitter doesn't think they can fill multiple batches. That's a crummy reason to force an artist to limit their batches, and a crummy reason to give someone a warning when they felt they had no other options. It's not a good situation to be in. I know there may be some submitters who use the system to abuse their buyers, but I'd hope it would mostly, overwhelmingly be used to allow submitters to submit more of a high-demand item. (Although I don't think it's true that DtS is unlimited only; someone screenshotted the interface to clarify it for me, and you can change the number of items for sale, can't you?)

I'm not sad that the pawn is closing, because it's clear it was hurting the CW community, even with all its faults. I do hope we see a change in the CW community on both the side of the buyers and the submitters. I do hope that the Subeta staff works with buyers and submitters to create something more sustainable for submitters in the long run.

And again, I'm so sorry! You are a dartboard right now, but I wasn't intending my post as a personal attack against you.

-snugs-

AH I REMEMBER YOUR POST. YOUR BEAUTIFUL WIG + DRESS AH YES. :)

I think most artists do find it fun - but there's just a limit when your fun also becomes really expensive to when you stop, is what I was trying to say :)

"That's a crummy reason to force an artist to limit their batches, and a crummy reason to give someone a warning when they felt they had no other options."

It really is. But unfortunately it's the environment we have :(

"Although I don't think it's true that DtS is unlimited only; someone screenshotted the interface to clarify it for me, and you can change the number of items for sale, can't you?"

I meant that when you submit, you cannot dictate the max number of batches of the item that you can add to the shop. When you click DtS, the batch number question greys out. After it's in your shop, yes, you can change the number of items for sale, but according to the rules, the item is unlimited and you can technically release as many you want even if your initial number goes to 0.

"I'm not sad that the pawn is closing, because it's clear it was hurting the CW community, even with all its faults. I do hope we see a change in the CW community on both the side of the buyers and the submitters. I do hope that the Subeta staff works with buyers and submitters to create something more sustainable for submitters in the long run."

Me too me too!! SINCERELY ME TOO. In the meantime, I'm just hoping to ease some immediate anger and negativity against the CW community.

It's ok ~ Perhaps just sensitive from responding all the time and such as well so I am also at fault :) <3

I'm glad we had a chance to talk about this! Really. Also, best of luck with your future releases and feel free to contact me anytime if you do have any questions!!!

I'm just gonna address some of this and try to help out (you my hero right now, because I am running out of energy for these discussions really fast).

This is already a thing. You cannot have a public blacklist or share your privately kept blacklist - it's considered part of Targeted Harassment. Releasers do not go around saying "don't let X slot on your stuff" for whatever reason. I'm sorry that there's ever been anything that indicated to you that this was a thing people did - we really do not.

All Custom Clothing was intended to be private. That was the original design behind it - and then the market exploded. Someone making something for themself and/or friends does not hurt anyone's gaming experience. And having a single item produced immediately means that most people couldn't submit because they're required to provide a copy to their artist at least 80% of the time as part of the commission cost. I don't even know what you mean about the wrong kinds of control - custom items are, and have always been, something where the submitter has absolute control over how to distribute (and it's on the custom clothing submission page:

And a final thing that I'm not sure anyone has quoted, for anyone who has been asking about what the plans are in place of the Pawn:

This is from the thread that has restricted access, which I have 0 control over, but figured I could at least post this for you guys to see what was said to anyone who can view it.

(who's probably going to beat me to this)

"Direct-to-Shop" has to be submitted with a flat rate of (1300/1400/1500/1600) depending on the category, out of pocket (99.9% of the time). It is set to unlimited by the system and cannot be changed.

Separately, there is an option to "Move CW to Cash Shop" if you had performed batch slotting previously (filling or submitting a batch of 10 copies of the CW). The # you are alllowed to sell in the shop at that point will be limited to your batches set out on the main CW submission page.

-sends cookies- /flops on <3

Yes! And again, I'm so sorry. Thank you and for the clarification on the DtS! I do recall seeing that there was no way to remove an item from the shop, you just had to keep an eye on how many had sold so you could set it to 0 when the correct number had been sold if you'd set a certain number of batches.

CWs were originally meant to be for a smaller market. I just hope Subeta will move quickly on reevaluating the way they're sold and submitted now that they've become so popular.

You've basically said what I said. And yes, the direct to shop price DOES affect the amount of batches, simply because creators don't want to pay for it beforehand on their own, thus, slotting. If people are not comfortable with/find the forums too hard to navigate, then the interest on said item isn't shown until after it's already on site.

I feel like there's a disconnect there between selling items and buying them, and creators would rather have a single batch to guarantee it filling/have the notoriety of having an "exclusive" item, than put out 2-4 batches for those people who discover it later on.

And quite frankly, despite your efforts to make CWs not sound like an elitist clique, you're doing quite the opposite. Unless you plan to keep an item for yourself/just a couple friends, ALL CW's should be open and accessible for everyone. You claim that without creator there wouldn't be any CW's in the first place, well without us "average users" you don't feel the need to cater to, there wouldn't be anyone to help fill those batches. It's a give and take system, and right now the system is catering to only one side.

I agree with that entirely too much power has been given to the creators. I agree that there should be a single set of rules that everyone abides by, and that "private" items should be single items only. All other items should have a way to be open and accessible to whomever would like to purchase it in some fashion.

I've been lurking this thread for awhile, and I really appreciate all of the effort and patience you've put into explaining the market and discussing options and changes with other users. ❤️ You're such a sweet person. ; u ;

--

I don't really have much to add right now since I need to head to bed, but since it's been brought up a few times . . .

Not a fan of the idea that private items should be single items only. I have CWs made for my OCs that are private, and I need several, several copies for tcs + wardrobe + copies for my artist. I made those items because I wanted to dress like my gay lil shark boy, but also because there weren't items that fit what I needed for his TC on site. I know a lot of people make privates for their OCs like this, and I would hate to see the ability to have multiple items for instances like these taken away. Not only that, but some people make private items for their friends as gifts for holidays or birthdays, and I don't really think that's a bad thing!! Privates aren't only made for the sense of elitism or exclusivity. : (

Hi ~

Just wanted to add in some of my experiences as a releaser/how I am currently "operating"--this of course doesn't apply to everyone else.

You're likely correct that releasers prefer to have smaller number of batches in order to fill them. I personally do this myself.

There is a certain balance between the desirability of an item versus how many batches "should" exist. If an item is deemed an "average" item that garners only moderate interest, there is no incentive for the releaser to have more than 2 batches in most cases. When you indicate batch numbers more than what you can visibly sell, you risk the mentality of "I can buy this later, because 'enough' people are slotting on it and there are a lot of batches left that I can purchase later".

Do we want more copies of the item to exist so we can make more profit? Yes, of course--this is the best outcome we can hope for, however, it is unrealistic with the current market. You can go into the Questions section of this document, you'll be able to see at what point releasers break even.

I don't deny that CW's should be accessible to everyone--the CW forum does that, but I do understand the restrictions due to ping groups and the difficulties of trying to navigate it.

The ping group restrictions are most prominent in "invitation-only" groups which usually consist a group of tight-knit friends. And one honestly can't fault them for wanting to have their "own" CWs. There are virtually no restrictions, however, in joining any releasers' public ping group. Joining a ping group does not mean you're joining a cult (not Subeta cults, like real cults). It is meant to mean that "I enjoy what this person is releasing and would like to be the first one to know what they release next". It seems like a belief has been popularized over the past couple of days that all ping groups are invitation-only and someone will apparently kick you out of a group if you join it. This is untrue.

In regards to navigation within the CW forum, I agree that if a better system was implemented it would greatly improve accessibility and transparency of CWs that are being proposed.

As has indicated above:

I believe the privacy of an item should remain with the releaser and they should be free to have as many copies as they wish, should it be a private item. This freedom is also given by Subeta themselves.

As has said:

To be transparent, I personally have a singular private item which I have given out to individuals as a Luminaire present, as well as raffled off in my public ping group. I paid for the cost of this CW upfront with no help--a total of 10000CSC. People who have received this item from me have been supportive of my CW journey thus far and is a token of my gratitude to them and is by no means a symbol of "elitism/exclusivity".

PS - Apologies if there are any sentence fragments or spelling mistakes...it is currently 3:19AM and I really should be asleep!

Ahh thank you <3 I'm trying my best.

"You've basically said what I said. And yes, the direct to shop price DOES affect the amount of batches, simply because creators don't want to pay for it beforehand on their own, thus, slotting. If people are not comfortable with/find the forums too hard to navigate, then the interest on said item isn't shown until after it's already on site."

DtS price cannot affect batch number. DtS items cannot be listed as having "Batches" you can only say how many copies you would like to release but they are technically unlimited on the releaser side. Just a technicality - stating otherwise would give a scamming warning on our side.

"And quite frankly, despite your efforts to make CWs not sound like an elitist clique, you're doing quite the opposite. Unless you plan to keep an item for yourself/just a couple friends, ALL CW's should be open and accessible for everyone. You claim that without creator there wouldn't be any CW's in the first place, well without us "average users" you don't feel the need to cater to, there wouldn't be anyone to help fill those batches. It's a give and take system, and right now the system is catering to only one side."

This paragraph made me sad. I'm sorry my efforts are not helping - I have my own biases and I was hoping it could be overcome by reaching out to everyone here.

All CWs (besides private items) ARE open to everyone to claim. The main issue is that people don't want to visit the forums or are too lazy to REALLY participate in the CW system besides browsing through the pawn. (Whether this is because of negativity in the forums or users not willing to spend CSC is another issue.) Of course, there is the issue that the forums are kinda overwhelming for those not already invested in it, which I have tried to address through other posts (to reiterate: Keith and staff are working on creating directories + user priced shops to help).

Ahh I never said that we should NOT cater to "average users" but the truth is that CSC is really a luxury currency!! How can we expect to cater to people who could not afford the cost anyway? Your solution would be to just make all items unlimited to everyone? That wouldn't help anyone but the people releasing the most popular items. People releasing niche items would suffer and newer artists would have an even harder time releasing items onto the site - everyone could just wait it out and eventually a copy or multiple copies would end up cheaper in r200 / whatever new system we ended up having.

The REAL problem with the disconnect between average users and CWs is the PRICE OF CSC. This really isn't something we can control or do anything about besides hold events and giveaways to even the playing field. You will find that nearly ALL releasers give out free things quite often.

"I agree with Evanesce that entirely too much power has been given to the creators. I agree that there should be a single set of rules that everyone abides by, and that "private" items should be single items only. All other items should have a way to be open and accessible to whomever would like to purchase it in some fashion."

What too much power? Why should Subeta dictate all the rules over how we use OUR art? It's like saying profile / graphics makers can only create art that is open-access to everyone. Does that make sense? I'm not really sure where this idea that we have a ridiculous amount of "power" but as you said above, it is very much a give-and-take system. (As for a single set of rules: we DO have rules. We have many rules - including submission standards + thread specific standards. It is part of playing on Subeta that we must adhere to. The only rule that you and others are pushing for is to take away the rights of artists and releasers to control how much of an item that they PAID for is on the site.)

Average users / Even CSC owning users are not participating in forums (our MAIN release format) = Slower Slot filling = Less items on site = Increased losses = Releasers lowering batches + increasing slot price

It's really quite simple. Taking away the control is very much a one-sided solution as well. What I have been TRYING TO SAY over and over is to ask that those of you frustrated with the system try to change it from within - choose who you support. Choose those that represent what you would like the whole system to look like. Choose intelligently and if enough do so, you WILL see the change you want. I imagine it as a seesaw effect. We, as releasers, can only control our thread.

Staff have been thinking, along with us, about solutions to many of your frustrations - but because there are so many people invested in such big decisions, change is slow. A recent idea was to create a sticky thread where current slots could be updated so everyone could have a main thread to browse through to find things they liked.

I'm literally just one person here trying to help by outlining the "other side", however much you may hate us. T^T

<3 <3 <3

Please, I love you all and I don't want to anger anyone - let's have nice conversations so that we can both better understand each other.

IDK if this is slightly off from the current discussion, but talking about dislike for CW threads - I have no idea why people don't put the items they're currently slotting on into their first post. The amount of times I've been drawn in by a thread title only to have to search around through pages of posts just to find the one containing the item is ridiculous. You can edit your first post right? Whyyyy are these shops so un-user friendly? D:

As a releaser myself ... I get pissed when I can't see what you want to slot (gentle pats to a friend of mine whom I've helped out). Some shops aren't perfect, we know it, I know it. Don't we all? So yeah, that's a very good point. Unless you want to slot something privately (you ... have a private forum for that), don't slot your things at page 125 lmao. The sheer amount of people posting after said post is crazy. Nobody got time to do that. I've lost a lot of opportunities in slotting on an item just because of that. But each releasers have their style. Which is why I'm not defending nor firing shots at anyone. But I get your point.

---

On the elitism sidenote: There is elitism everywhere on this website; not just on the Custom Wearable side. As far as I stand, privates should remain a thing but the RULES should be much more strict.

Pika, no offense but I take exception to you saying that casual users are too lazy to browse the forums and participate in the CW system. Sorry, but as a customer, I don't think the onus is on me to do all the work. You guys as sellers should make it easy for us to find YOUR products. The fact that you haven't, is why we circumvent the boards and were using the pawn shop. Laziness has nothing to do with it.

My biggest problem with the CW market, is that it operates on the assumption that the sellers/creators have the power, and that it's up to the customers to do most of the work/should be grateful when they are accepted for a slot. Any other situation, it's the customers with the power - you cannot operate without their spend. But for some reason, it feels like the CW community doesn't give a crap about their customers, and I've always gotten this "I, as the creator have the power, you must grovel to me" vibe from MANY CW threads. So, as much as artists and releasers don't want to think that elitism exists, it obviously does if multiple people are telling you that we've had this experience.

I feel like ff you're doing it as a hobby, and because you love it, then you really can't complain about lack of profits. If, on the other hand, you sell CW's to try to make money, then you have to be more strategic about attracting and retaining customers. And saying that what you're doing is fine, and it's the customers that are the problem - that just isn't smart business practice. And that is the vibe I get from many CW sellers.

Anyway, just my $0.02

I think the wording was a poor choice, but I don't think that's entirely how Pika meant it (but I obviously don't speak for her).

The thing is, there's a very easy way to be pinged to new public releases, there's a forum group for it. The only things you have to do are join the group, then click on the pings you receive. Most people ping the group with the item in their post. Some people say "check the first post" so you have to click to the first page of the thread. Nobody expects you to scroll through every post on a thread to find the release. Granted, with the current forum errors, this is not necessarily functioning correctly at the moment, but in general, it's pretty easy to find people's releases with minimal effort. You can also join the public ping group (usually linked somewhere on the first page within the first few posts) of people who frequently release items you like/like the style of. Then you get pinged to their public releases typically before they ping the giant CustomWear public group.

"that it's up to the customers to do most of the work/should be grateful when they are accepted for a slot. "

I....don't get how this feeling comes across? Like, most people are not going "nope, you can't have a slot" unless an item has filled all of the batches that they said they were having on a given item (and if it fills, they literally cannot take anyone else as it then becomes scamming to add batches after they posted there are only going to be X number of batches). I don't expect folks to be grateful, if they want it and ask for a slot and there's a slot, cool. I typically thank people for slotting because that puts me one step closer to getting an item into the approval queue.

I've been a buyer way longer than I've been a seller, and aside from the first couple of years (which yes, did have folks who had the attitudes I've seen described, and did have people bidding for slots and begging etc), it really hasn't been like that. The market is a two-way street - sellers for the most part rely on the community to help them fill slots so they don't have to shell out even more money to get an item on-site. Buyers rely on sellers to keep providing new content. Most sellers are also buyers. It seems like the disconnect is happening with folks who haven't ever submitted a CW and have a misconception of how it works/how the average releaser thinks/feels. We're not sitting on piles of profits, we're not cackling behind closed doors about how elite and special we are. We're typically going "man I hope people like this enough to fill a batch. Dang, I really hope I don't have to cover empty slots."

As for the whole notion that we're making profit - it's a myth. Profit is a long since gone thing of the past. We release because we want the items, or because someone asked for a recolor, etc. Obviously we're fine losing money, or we wouldn't bother commissioning items, because to be profitable you've basically got to be a wizard. But when people start calling us greedy because we got 500 csc back on a batch (which, by the way, is not profit - it's a slight mitigation of the deficit we're already in - when you spend $50 on a commission and get 500 csc back, you can pretend you only spent $45 but in reality you still spent $50 because you can't take that csc and turn it back into USD).

The entire situation with single batch items, despite people who don't submit arguing that it's to create a furor and force people to slot, has come about because slotting more than 1 full batch is nearly impo9ssibe for most of us 90%+ of the time. And once something is posted as one batch limit, no matter how many people might want that particular item, they cannot change it to more batches. Subeta has absolutely said this is scamming:

That is on the submission page and has a checkbox next to it that you must click in order to submit an item. If you have said anywhere publicly (ie, public forums, group forums) that an item (or an item and all of it's recolors) will only be a single batch (each), you have to abide by it or you can be banned from CWs.

[edit] Oh my god, I forgot to link the damned giant group that anyone can ping for public releases, which I meant to do.

CustomWear Ping Group

I would respond specifically to your points but at this point I'm tired of repeating myself.

So what would you like us to do about it? You have simply restated what everyone's problems are with the CW community, which I have tried addressing in many of my previous posts.

It is not all on you to do the work, of course not, but it is not all on us to make it the easiest thing in the world for you all either. It seems that your mentality is that creators should be the ones "groveling" for attention for buyers.

I'd be happy to hear what you believe individual sellers can do.

As an aside, and not directed at anyone in particular, how exactly has this "vibe" from the community been established? Have you all spent days in the forums? Have you all tried slotting on multiple threads? Have you all joined a few ping groups? Because my experience starting out as a buyer was really very different than what I've been hearing here. I'm very confused as to how this came to be when even I, as a relatively new artist, joined the forums and it was fine. Please explain in friendly and concise terms. :)

<3

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Thank you :) That is all. <3 It is not how I meant the phrase - I specified in the following sentence as well but alas, poor word choices haunt me. :(

I, myself am the same--I prefer to be able to easily see what's happening within the first couple of posts in a topic for CWs, and I've made the effort in my shop to lay it out that way. It is unfortunate that some releasers may not have the time to do so--even if it's just clicking edit on their post.

(Not sure why you're weren't pinged...)

I agree and disagree with your statement of onus. As much as it is our responsibility to make an item available to you in an accessible fashion, we are by no means to spoon-feed you. We are not required to go door-to-door ask if you would like purchase our CW--I'm sure that kind of harassment is that last thing that anyone wants. In and 's discussion above, I do believe that topics should have information for their current releases readily available on the front page. does this, does this, and so do I, along with a lot of other individuals. If someone doesn't want to click into the CW forum and then browse a topic, we can't do anything about it.

Seller and creators are allowed to have power because those CWs belong to them and Subeta recognizes this. They purchased the art with their own money, and in some cases will have to fork out even more to even get it on site. I'm not sure who (or whom) you had these experiences with, but I for one am grateful for every person that slots on my items. If a releaser has made you feel unwelcomed and treated you unfairly, you should definitely let them know that.

To be honest, the only reason why I think "profits" was ever brought up in this entire discussion is because everyone thinks CW releasers are sitting on a mountain of it, when in reality it is quite the opposite. And when we have tried to explain that we in fact don't make a profit, people change their tune and say that we're complaining about not making a profit. Again, us "not making a profit" is a statement and not a complaint. It is a fact that people have now twisted into a source of argument.

I raise you a penny--but Canada got rid of those, so it'll have to be a nickel.