Bless you for writing that post. Your last point was spot-on.

Maybe I am whack'd to think this, but if I go to the Cash Shop and purchase with real cash, say a 1 Month Gold Account Medal... I should I get 1 FULL month of Gold account privileges/services that I PAID for, not 27 or 28 days. NOR should I or anyone else who has paid real cash, have to endure a laggy/errors left and right, site!

BUT HEY 2013 WAS A GREAT YEAR FOR BATTLERS and those CWs! :P

P.S. The end of subeta is nigh tho ( just my 'belief' ), so what does it matter.. [edit]Oh and don't forget tomorrow is Tuesday: Get your FREE Pizza @ Bob's Salmonella Pizza Barn.

I'm confused why some people are screaming murder and fire for sharing financial information, because OMG THAT IS PRIVATE. Euh, yeah maybe for you usa people it's hard to imagine, but here in belgium every year every company has to put down their financial result visible for everyone. And with everyone I don't just mean shareholders/stakeholders, i mean: everyone.

And I saw people say: we aren't shareholders so we have no business with the financial state of subeta. We aren't shareholders, we are stakeholders, in case you missed it, without our money subeta is poof gone and people would need new jobs. A game without players is worthless. We do have the right do demand explanations.

The 'Things have improved' is getting so fucking old. Of course things have improved since the moment the site started. It's like saying from a website: look it's modern, it's web 2.0, while web 2.0 is like 5 years old by now. Just because it isn't as rubbish as it used to be, doesn't mean it's not rubbish, it's just less rubbish.

Some people can be quite ethnocentric. With the sheer geographical size of the US, I wouldn't be surprised if some users have never even left their own states let alone traveled to and have enough knowledge to be open-minded about other countries.

Been wondering whether I should post or not, seeing as I have no personal stake in the coupon loss, but here it goes...

What amazes me is the little response users end up getting when they work themselves up to actually care enough to post feedback.

Damage control shouldn't be a small post that says sorry promise you guys we got this under control by offering other things for you in the future. Users are not mind readers. In fact, how about preventing damage instead? Why must I see subeta do damage control over and over (if it can even be called damage control at this point)? Why not have just posted that upfront in the news post and save some poor people who still care enough to get riled up some nerves? By the way, the future is already an unknown, scary place for most people irl, add to that some classic that's subeta for you expectations (or lack thereof), and you have to realize why some of us are not buying the concept of "in the future" anymore? I mean. Surely. Someone on staff has some savoir-vivre? Because the reason behind removing the coupons may make sense, but the execution of this bit of news wholesomely trumps it. I'm going to end this with quoting My Fair Lady, which I hope you'll see as to what I'm getting at.... "You see, Mrs. Higgins, apart from the things one can pick up, the difference between a lady and a flower girl is not how she behaves, but how she is treated. I shall always be a common flower girl to Professor Higgins, because he always treats me like a common flower girl, and always will. But I know that I shall always be a lady to Colonel Pickering, because he always treats me like a lady, and always will."

And here's where I step in - late, but here.

DISCLAIMER - I am not Keith's mouthpiece, and refuse to be, so I won't be able to answer any questions about progress on site features, bug fixes, etc. That's just not my job, sorry. I am, however, the one who does a lot of the back end stuff when it comes to the actual business. Here I am, a real person, not some secret Swiss bank account, so to speak. I can speak definitively that our business IS, in fact, incorporated in Virginia (where Keith started Agoge), and our current mailing address is in Illinois (where I live). One of my tasks for 2014 is getting reincorporated in a manner that makes more sense for our business set up, so that may account for the confusing results when using your Google-fu.

As I have said in the past, all I can do is ask for you, some of our most dedicated and loyal players (some of which I have met in real person and consider to be friends!), to remember that we are a small staff of relatively young people, none of whom consider themselves to be a finance guru or a business magnate. We have come a long, long way since I started in 2008, and we are far from perfect. This is a constant learning experience for everyone. Whether it is obvious or not, or concentrated in the areas YOU feel are important or not, there are people here on the back end that are working every single day to maintain and improve this experience for you. I can promise you that your hard earned money is not being swindled, stashed, snorted, or smuggled. It is, frankly, keeping us afloat. I have seen a lot of assumptions and guesses thrown around as to what people THINK our profits are, and what we "must be" making every month, but these are very one-sided thoughts that do not take into account the big picture of what we're actually working with. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. I know that's not the black and white answer everyone wants to see, and I'm sorry I'm not able to provide that for you.

While I can't give you numbers, I can reassure you that we're real people, and definitely not in this to rip anyone off. We're in it for you, and we're working to give you our best. I hope that you'll continue to see improvement in what we're bringing to you, and see the sincerity behind it. Everyone has a choice in where they spend their extra cash and their free time, and it's never lost on me that you choose to spend some of it with us.

Final note - I am usually more than happy to answer questions or explain things where I am able. I don't read the forums very often, but I'm online every single day. Don't be afraid to mail me or ping me if you have a legitimate question that you think would be appropriate to ask me, or just chat with me (I'm in the IRC channel most days). Even if I can't give you specifics, I'll give you as best an answer as I can. Again, REAL PERSON. :)

Incorporation records are public. I knew the original is Virginia, that's why that's where I looked first. It appears, by all means and sources I can find, to be not current. It auto-terminated 12/31/12, so unless it was fixed this week (or again, is under a DBA - no longer Agoge, Inc corp -6) I have to lean towards it having expired. The 2011 annual report is also the last report posted (which means your 2012 status is questionable on that basis alone, but I'll admit I'm not 100% on Virginia's deadlines) AND it still has Lascara as the registered agent, who I know resigned (although I'm getting conflicting info on the date, so if it was after 2011 that would still be good for that year).

Even if the Virgina registration is somehow still current (against everything in the Commission's database) it's a misdemeanor to not have updated Keith's address, unless he is still leasing it. I hope that it's unlikely that someone getting their income from Subeta is leasing two apartments for no reason, but there could be personal stuff there so I'll certainly defer on that one.

I checked it because I was curious, and it had been a while since I checked it last (when I had some questions about jurisdiction regarding privacy policy/affiliate marketing). BUT I do feel that those who still spend money on the site deserve to know who they're giving money to AND I do feel that if you're going to use the "we have to act like any other real business/company" line you should, you know, actually be one.

Link for others to see (be warned, it's MDOS level crappy): Link, click the 'Clerk's Information System', IE recommended but I get it to work ok in Chrome

This really isn't to beat you down (though I could see you not believing that), but if it was an oversight it's a pretty darn large one, so worthy of discussion (to me).

I don't think a single person here has overlooked the fact that there are people behind Subeta. We are a still a smallish community and we understand more than most communities that there are people who put their heart and souls into Subeta. I know that's why I haven't left. It's not just the money I've sunk into pixels, it's the memories here and the fact that, over the six years I've been here, I feel wholly positive about this place. The problem is the last couple years, I'mre saying we don't feel like we are viewed as people. Even right now, there's a selective response from staff. A glimmer of hope in a little red bar. You're toting around the fact you're a real person -- that's acknowledge! That's why I've stayed and why I continue to love this site past my better judgement. But to be hushed and downright ignored makes a person feel like a credit card instead of a REAL PERSON.

[edit]

Lalala, I apparently can't spell any better than I can bracket.

I normally don't open my mouth on this type of thing. But I guess there's a time for everything.

I don't mean to be blunt, but if Subeta wants to be recognized and function like a company, they should act more like one. I realize you guys are privately owned. But you can look up financial information to at least have a comprehension of what's going on for almost any legitimate company.

For example, here's the financial statements (no hard numbers, just graphing) for Neopets: https://www.google.com/finance?fstype=ii&q=NEOP And a brief company overview including revenue and employees: http://www.manta.com/c/mtr8g1z/neopets-inc

Saying numbers can't be given, but then stating that we have no idea what's going on - give us an idea. Let us see for ourselves what we're missing out on. Yes, we're not running Subeta. Yes, you guys are privately owned. Yes, there are certain business numbers that are private. But there are some that are not. Revenue (not profit, revenue) and number of employees are often public knowledge and quite often touted as basic information for a company.

Now I can see from your LinkedIn profile you state 11-50 employees - which is a rather large margin at that size all things considered. But at least it is a number to work with. However, that's the ONLY number tie-able to Agoge Inc out there - that is if you're looking for the game company, not the at least two other Agoge Inc found for airline solutions and other random things.

I'm not trying to dismiss that money isn't cut and dry - I've worked some time in business, I understand the numbers have strings that aren't apparent to those who aren't inside. And I've had a fair hand in IT - I understand there's maintenance costs, equipment upkeep, etc etc. and that a recode is neither easy nor cheap.

But there's one thing many companies do that is not being done here: clear communication about what those numbers mean. We don't NEED the cut and dry "here we spend x on this and y on this" - it's been said those are intrusive and are obviously private to the company. But most people can look at the stock and see a company is doing well, etc. and that stock forces a company to be transparent.

There is next to no transparency on Subeta. You tell us when you're working on bugs, when they've been fixed, etc. You let us give feedback in forums like these. Sometimes you even reply! But when on issues as large and glaring as this, the communication just disappears. Think about how other businesses handle huge directional changes and how they transition their users. That's not happening here.

You guys might not be business moguls and no one expects you to be - but business goal 101 for almost every top company is be transparent. People need to know what's happening and how it affects them. Companies need to be open to that feedback and explaining what they can, within the realm of realism. When many companies go through a large change or having difficulties, there's a Q&A/FAQ relating to the change to give people full disclosure, as well as a forum (like this, but monitored and answered by a representative) where people can ask more questions/express concerns and have them recognized, not dismissed or ignored simply because they are uncomfortable. Everyone asks about the recode, but there's no new information regarding it.

GIVE PEOPLE THE TRUTH. A message as simple as "hey, it was a rough year - had to replace malfunctioning servers, and those we contracted for the recode weren't doing the best so we had to cancel on them and we're back to square one. This year we plan to do x and y, and we will do our best to keep you updated" GIVES PEOPLE HOPE. It tells them that you care enough and trust them enough to admit hardship and move forward, not cover it up. That's what a company does when they blunder. If it's too small to just glaze over, they acknowledge it publicly, learn from it, and move forward.

I know you guys are trying to do your best - really, I do. But the way this is being run - even if you are a company in the sense of title, you're not running yourselves like one in terms of how you interact with those you rely on. Have some faith in us to tell us the truth - I can almost guarantee it will do you more good than you can imagine. Just read through the pulse news page on Linkedin and you'll see the same message bear repeating - transparency and communication are the top necessities for a company in the social media age. And you guys have done so well with it in the past - don't squander it when you need it more than ever to compete.

PS edited to say just seriously feel free to ping me back and correct me if I'm wrong or something because I know I'm no expert on Subeta. Just my observations in the time I've spent here and what I've noticed. And I really do know you guys are trying. This is a suggestion of what you might want to try that could work in your favor, given precedent of successful businesses.

Gone for the weekend and the board grows by two pages! I haven't been ignoring you guys, I just haven't been on my computer at all :) I'm going to be responding to a lot here, so I apologize if it seems formatted weird, because I'm going back to a lot of posts and trying to figure out what to respond to!

The recode is already happening. Instead of doing it in one big move like we've planned and talk about in the past, we've been trying to take smaller parts of the site and break them into manageable pieces of code to rewrite. Unfortunately a whole site rewrite from the ground up isn't really possible (just take a look at a little bit of our site map) because we have such a small team and need to be working on the "main product" as well. We have to have events, holidays, and new features. We're always working to improve the site and it's just a really slow process. I know that sucks to hear and it sucks to say, but we've been working on ways that we can work around that and get "new stuff" pushed out quicker (which involves a lot of shady things like iFrames, blah). Things like the new vending machines are a great example of us using rewrite-code on the current site, without many complications. (Just a JS library change is required for the 'rewrite' site). Or a better example of something that we don't use for the cash shop (like we've been able to use vending machines for) is the new gift center. There was a lot of feedback in the first day and we were able to implement a number of changes within a few hours of the launch because of how much cleaner adding to that code is.

As far as the new layout / what is connected to the rewrite - we got a lot of really great feedback on it and we've done additional user testing from off site and I'm just not really happy with the way that it turned out. I don't really know what that means right now besides it's not the direction I want to go in anymore (feedback that a lot of you provided!) and instead of trying to make it work for today and tomorrow, I want something to work for next year and the year after. So we're reexamining that starting soon. It sucks to have invested so much time and energy into working on it and working on features fitting into it, but I think that it's better to scrap it than going forward with a product that no one was really excited about. I wish that I'd been able to make that choice earlier.

That site map I linked to earlier is the majority of my focus right now. We've got a lot of features that aren't necessary and don't really make sense / could easily be folded into other things. We've got a lot of games that just aren't fun and either need a revamp or added complexity. We've got a million quests that just aren't interesting to complete but are required to make any sP / progress on the site. We're working on all of those things right now. I agree with a lot of the feedback on this thread, our goal in 2014 is to be less of an "item of the day" site, and more of a content company. Unfortunately that shift is going to be really difficult and is going to require a lot of patience from you guys. I hope to have a lot more on that (and our goals) starting in early 2014 (which was already my plan to post about) but it's a lot of stuff that I'm personally really excited about, and I hope that we can get you excited about it. It does mean that a lot of the things we've done / have been working on are probably going to be thrown aside... but it's still really exciting.

On cults - Yeah, I know I've dropped the ball here. It's really hard to plan a feature that the entire goal is to move people from the main discussion points of the site and instead converse with a much smaller pool of people and ignore the rest. I know that isn't the goal of cults, but it's a very complicated game to play when people who are in cults post on the forums much less. I'm not stalling or looking for more time (because I still haven't set a timeline) just letting you know why I haven't been moving especially full speed on them.

Coupons - They just weren't working to actually keep people buying CSC. We're working on rewarding people for buying more by changing our pricing structure (more spending = higher amount of CSC) which is something we obviously should have had from the start. The coupon system is also something that we can use any time, and give coupons of any amount, and we plan to do that, just when we figure out how to give them out without it being every purchase. If that means building some sort of cute stamp that gets stamped every time you buy CSC or something with an awesome reward at 8, that'd be really cool. Something that pushes people to buy more CSC instead of it just being a passive bonus on top of their purchase.

I actually really appreciate your number five point. I think it's easy to forget that we have such an engaged userbase that wants to help. When we ask for items to be helped tagged we get 100 thousand items tagged in a few days. When we post brainstorming threads, we get a lot of really useful feedback. A great example of that is both of the most recent pets have been picked from user suggestions. I hope that the rest of this post points out that we actually really listen to all of the feedback and ideas, and I recognize that everyone is asking for more transparency which means actually discussing this things above a lot sooner than this (or at all).

(Also I appreciate you saying that because soon we're gonna be asking you guys to organize all of the minions like we asked you to tag items and that has been a hassle for us :P)

ANYWAY, I'm keeping an eye on this thread. I'm not trying to sweep this under the rug (otherwise we just wouldn't allow these kind of topics / outreach) and I'm hoping that we can keep the conversation going!

We were working with third party freelancers for some code, but we've never hired another company for programming. I think in my previous posts I've said that we hired freelancers (which we have/did! Majong/some other newer features were written by them) but for the most part the rewrite has been us working on it. The goal now is to see how we can fit that code into the current site (like I said, blah iframes) because of the differing javascript libraries and mostly abandoning the 'new layout' ideas. It's all written in a way that the 'look' (aka new layout) stuff is isn't very important and is separate from the actual programming logic.

Thank you.

I don't know if I'm just terribly misinformed or not, but I thought we were still going with a whole new look-and-code rewrite. I had no idea that a full rewrite wasn't possible. Hearing the other side and having some communication expanded into the options we, as a site, have is phenomenal. I was thinking that these patches and fixes were basically to keep the site duct taped, when in truth, it seems they are actually to transition the site into new code. It makes a lot more sense, and having been on a programming end, I understand the delay. (Especially after seeing that site map. Yikes.)

I'm not bending down to kiss your toes, because while you may have been gone all weekend, I think of the times this has popped up, and there is still some doubt in me. Expectations of the past, if you catch my drift. But just reading that, of knowing what is happening to the site, is a crazy amount better than it was. One of the reasons I think most people haven't completely given up hope in Subeta is because we do see places like the two new pets where our suggestions play heavily, if not completely. I can't coherently think of how to word everything, because that was a lot of information to take in, but I do want to thank you for taking quite a few moments to be the site that I know Subeta can be. ❤️

By the way, the best way to get us riled up is to give us a busy-work challenge. Sorting minions? Bring it on. 8D

I just want to link to it again because it's INSANE. Site map CLICK CLICK, and that only includes /explore/ and stuff that is currently accessible through that part of the site.

I don't want to go TOO MUCH into it because it's a discussion that I'd really rather have on its own (and it doesn't have anything to do with the cash shop or coupons or really anything outside of how we see the site going forward) but just take a look at that map and think about all of the features that could be folded into one feature. Why do we have vaults (because neopets had a SDB) - why isn't that just part of the inventory, with better sorting and moving in and out? Why do we have random events that steal items from user (because neopets did) why don't we just get rid of those so there isn't even a real reason for vaults. That is one example in a massive list of things that we could get rid of or move into other features and just make Subeta smaller and sleeker.

Not going into the business part or anything since some other people touched on those topics amazingly well.

Keith, you miffed me with your excuse about not getting to cults. You do realize most cults use forums OFF subeta, right? And the only time they really do cult chatting is on the Subeta cult sections in their own cult threads. And really, there are what less than five large enough cults to make a difference if you lost those threads?

Big deal.

You'll lose 5 threads or so in ONE section on subeta. It isn't going to stop people from posting in the other sections they always do, it will however perhaps entice people to come back from off-site forums (although you'll have a hard time making a cult forum as bad ass as the one we've got going on) to subeta and at least get your more traffic in that portion of the site.

That's it, all I had to say.

Wow, thank you Keith for actually responding. It is just unfortunate that even after years of the userbase begging for communication and transparency, we still have to essentially beg for updates. I don't think that it is out of line for us to ask for information about the progress of the site. It is obvious that we care about this site, otherwise we would not bother to complain.

I find the explanation for cults to be a little.... lame. You shouldn't have made a big deal about working on it if you didn't really want to. I also find it weird that you don't like having people in cults essentially because they use the forums less? There are far more users of Subeta that likely don't use the forums at all, and honestly I think that being in a cult unites users and makes the game a lot more fun.

Oh for sure, with cults in the state they are in now that is absolutely how it is. If you didn't need to have your cult forums offsite though, I think it'd be a different story. I also worry about cliques (which cults absolutely are) to a lesser degree. I'm not trying to excuse cults not being a thing because there have been a lot of factors, but these sort of social things have been on my mind a lot. We've also talked about incorporating more general groups that you join that are big groups of users, instead of being small cults. An idea that we've played with / wireframed, but I'm not convinced I like it.

Thank you so, so much for posting! Things are a lot clearer now, it's good to get an update. I dearly love Subeta and like you a great deal, I just feel frustrated sometimes.

Two things, if I may - the site lagging/going down during events. Is there anything that can be/is being done? That, I think, is the number one most frustrating thing about Subeta.

And about the item tagging. Could you possibly explain why it was helpful? What was/is the tagging being used for? I loved doing the tagging, by the way - it was a way for us to help Subeta, and it was fun and felt good! I would do it all again, for free! If we can help Subeta more often in little ways like that, it would be awesome.

I honestly can't say much on the server front right now because we're currently pursuing our options. We got locked into a long (2 year) contract with a company that provides part of our infrastructure that hasn't really worked out the way that we wanted. I hope to have an actual update on that soon, but I'm not sure how it's gonna turn out yet :).

Ok, what I may say next probably won't sound all that nice so in advance I say: Don't take it personally. I love subeta and that is why I have been here for so long and I do appreciate the work a lot of people have done here.

Your post in all honesty makes me think of someone who doesn't think we should have cults at all - in other words, you're starting to build up excuses not to have them.

I am lucky though, I found a cult which is like a second home and they help keep me interested in subeta. When I get bored of doing tedious quests all the time (and I like tedious things so that says something) they host SP earning competitions for quests to add some excitement. They keep me interested in trying to do my best in events, etc.

We're also very UNelitist, in fact as long as you're a nice human being (I sometimes wonder how I got in...) and love to chat you can join our cult. Are there elitist cults out there? Oh hell yes, but you're going to get those anywhere. Even if you did without cults a lot would still hold together because of the family made and all the sites already off subeta. But that could prevent future members from finding those amazing places.

If we had no cults or you stall on the revamp even more due to this concern - it won't matter in the end. I've seen so many boards just for friends to chat with on Neo pop up it was insane. They'd ignore anyone else who came in or mark snarky remarks so people wouldn't stay. Completely within the rules, but alas elitist none the less. I've seen it, I've been in it, and I hate it but it's how life works. There are always "those" people.

Do I think a cult revamp should be top priority if there are bigger and better things in play? No, but mostly due to already being happy with how our cult is running and already sort of given up on subeta in that area. Should maybe some small things try to be done for the cults for those who DO use the stuff on subeta? That would be nice, or at least give more credible reasons for not doing it after saying for sooooo long how the revamp was coming "soon." I think this is the first time I've ever actually seen you mention them and the desire not to do them - you may have said it other places but unfortunately I don't watch the videos anymore and the news don't really touch on that stuff. Now that you're being honest about it though great - at least people won't be holding their breath anymore.

[edit] Not sure if you added more to the last post or I overlooked it. The groups idea isn't a bad one, but I also just like the idea of being able to join multiple cults better :)

[edit 2] Oh and don't feel like you need to reply to this. Mostly just absorb it as another side to things and maybe keep it in mind :)