I completely agree with this. I am usually quiet and the person who just shrugs their shoulders when stuff like this happens... But, I mean it's kind of bad coming back from a long hiatus and seeing that things are still not changed or that the users are still upset about the way the site runs. When I first joined, this site was really fun. But now? It sort of feels like the people who help run the site or whomever have just... stopped caring? Looking at some of the responses, to me, it looks like, "We're giving you a site, and we hear your responses and feedback... but you're still going to get what we give you no matter what you say." And, it may not be those exact words, but over the past few years that is what it seems to be with a few little exceptions here and there. And now these little coupons that will still allow users to buy from the site are going to disappear?

I don't mean to be rude at all, but after spending a few years on this site, buying CSC from the site and having the first year being so exciting and then it all just... goes down hill? And I come back and it's /still/ going down hill from what I see? I'm just so confused. Isn't the point of having a happy, cheerful site supposed to keep people... well, happy and cheerful?

Well, I can tell you that the last time I bought CSC was because I wanted something from the site and decided to get the coupon, thus allowing me to get a little extra on the side. I have yet to use that coupon though because honestly, I have no desire to donate any more money to this site. I'm tired of the passive aggressive comments from staff. I am tired of being told that I am being ungrateful for stuff and I should just deal with it because I might hurt someone's feelings and they can't help it. I'm tired of Subeta having the same problems they've been having for well over six years with out any kind of solution in sight. I'm not counting this imaginary recode because that has been promised time and time again but..shocker.. it has yet to happen.

You want my money? Show me why I should give it to you. Tell me what you have done to improve the site with my funds because honestly, on my end, I see nothing. I see nothing is being done and i see that snide comments are being sent to anyone who points this out.

Its like dealing with a horrible teacher who refuses to change anything and then wonders why the students fail and don't try on their tests. You want people to do well, encourage and help them. You want people to give money to your site, let us see the updates that you are doing. If it is a project that is going to take some time to be introduced to us, then update us on how the process is going. Do you have to give us the nitty gritty details? No. But it might be awesome to hear things like, "Hey, we've been working on the recode and so far we have updated things such as.." Give us small screen shots of the recode. Let us know what you are planning.

I have stopped donating to this site because I feel like there is nothing to come of it. Oh sure, I get this really neat new item I wanted for a few days... but if the site is down, I can't use it. I don't really get anything out of it and honestly don't feel as if I'm thanked or appreciated because whenever any concerns are brought up, staff often disregards it or down right snubs it if its counter to what they want to hear. Don't give me the whole, "they have feelings too and we should be careful or they won't produce" thing either. There are plenty of people who worship everything the staff does. There are plenty of people who put what they dislike in a way that is hardly cruel or rude and is something that needs to be brought to the site's attention, but gets torn down or talked down to over.

Are the coupons that big of a deal? For me, no, not really. But the point is people bought CSC because of it. The other point is the timing. As others have mentioned, more things have been introduced to the cash shop lately, including a new pet. Many users have voiced their concerns about Subeta putting too much in the cash shop and now you are getting rid of coupons. Just- the timing is horrible.

At this point I don't know how staff expects people to spend money without thinking their money is being seriously mismanaged or they're straight up being scammed. And I don't mean it as a judgment on people who buy CSC; I've spent far too much money on this site to be in any position to do that. I'm just giving my uneducated guess that when you're running a business, you might want to put "people feel like they can trust us when they give us money" on the list of goals to look into. That starts with learning how to address concerns in a professional and reasonably transparent manner.

I agree that giving customers an incentive for buying csc is an awesome and maybe even a needed strategy, what puts me in agreement with as to why coupons were removed without something else to replace them. Mind you, I don't mean that we needed to get something else for every purchase right now, but something at all! Bulk purchases, discount "cards", whatever - otherwise people will really just hold off until the next promo comes up and everyone gets some +20% on any purchase, which probably isn't great for business AND also generates the same sort of "loss" the coupons did (a bit worse since coupons were tied to the cash shop?).

It's just... very bad timing. The recode isn't done yet, the site is still broken like it has been for years; it's only natural that people lose the motivation to spend. Then, there's always the CW argument, which is also true. If Subeta could make ends meet before them, what changed now? Are the new servers or the recode costing a lot more or is the company making a lot of profit? If so, where roughly is this profit going? I think these are the questions that go on in most people's minds.

I don't want a financial report breakdown. I think this would be highly intrusive on the lives of people who try their best at their work and honestly couldn't help on making the site more stable even if they wanted, haha. Actually, I don't think it's decent to request payment information from any staffer at all, all people want is knowing "for sure" that at least SOME money is being reinvested so we aren't hanging on empty promises. Again.

Side note: I entirely disagree with "fire artists and hire programmers", mostly because I don't even think we have so many artists for the amount of art required. Also, we got three new artists? But we also lost one PLUS the director, so there shouldn't have been such a major impact on the payroll. Of course all staffers are hired on different conditions, some don't even get paid cash, but, considering the CW argument, there should be enough money to invest on programming. Of course all these are conjectures, but the truth is that Subeta is small enough so that some information about staffing comes out anyway, and that's partially why some things could really do better with clarification, which could definitely happen without hard numbers being thrown out.

Yes, people are tired of complaining. They're tired of being in the dark, because we don't know a whole lot about what goes behind the scenes. We can't be by staff's side to know whether they're working hard on the rewrite and just got nothing to show yet because it's all so damn messy until it gets done, or if they just skipped a day and went to the beach :/ There can't be an official "promised" timeline for us, but is there even a timeline for staffers? Or "when it gets done, it gets done"? Is it x% ready, has there been much progress? This is a bit intrusive, yes, but that's mostly because people will only trust others for so long... that's also when the CW argument, now with the addition of pet overlays, CS pets and the lack of coupons comes in. Yet again, these are concerns that I believe could be answered without getting too much into staffing procedures. I don't even think people are interested in technicalities at all.

I have to agree that if we don't do anything, nothing tends to get changed. However, this is a business, and as such, people are eventually going to do something: they're going to quit purchasing, sooner or later. Guys, don't count on it being "later". Don't ever count on newcomers 'replacing' old members. I haven't seen any statistics, but the way the site is right now (and considering what little observation I did), I don't even see many newbies sticking with the site. It's really hard to be new here, it's actually demotivating if you don't get friends quickly. Also, don't count on CWs generating this sort of revenue forever. I have been there since pretty much day 1 and the market has changed so incredibly much... that I would take the money and hurry up with getting things done, before that handful of people gets tired of buying pretty pixel clothes in bulk.

I don't know, I actually think this site has the best userbase I've seen... like ever. Either because of sunk costs, or because they can play for free, or whatever reason - I still see a very big amount of players logging on everyday and supporting the site regularly for years, when they could've just moved on with their lives. They may not be spending a lot right now, but they love the place and could feel motivated to do so again, at any point. Don't push these people away yet again. Don't make it look like staff is getting greedy without offering anything substantial in return. Having cash shop ideas that aren't CWs is actually great, for whenever the revenue from these start decreasing, but maybe it's time to push some of these ideas for later :/

So I just spent forever writing out this nice long post then you went ahead and said a good portion of what I was going to write in a much more articulate and much less "I'm tired bluh bluh bluh" way. xD

Also, , I really appreciate your post, I just wanted to say that. You're right, Keith has no obligation to give us any kind of financial breakdown, and like Blanche said, some aspects of such a thing would be really intrusive as far as staffers go. But a certain level of transparency would be amazing. In fact, it could put an end to these arguments of where our money is going. I have a ton of speculations, of course, because my father knows a fair bit about businesses, economics, statistics, and technology, and so I expect there are costs we don't even think about that are largely responsible for keeping the site running at the level that it is running.

And it is running better than it used to on some levels. There are higher numbers of users that can be supported on one page at one time, there have been fewer massive shutdowns than I remember there being in other years. I come one here every day, and for the first time, I can actually do a lot of stuff from my iPhone. The site used to lag so bad that it shut down Safari when I tried to do really simple stuff. So there have been some improvements that I think we're all too frustrated to be remembering right about now. If you look back at some forums created when Keith added another server or did something that the user base was excited about, you see some of those improvements being touted. Also, it takes just a few searches to look at what we do know about the recode. As I remember, there was a post in which Keith said that the work on the recoded forums was done, that he was working on the underlying levels of coding for profiles and other areas of the site.

I'm not saying I'm entirely happy with how things are being handled, of course not. But honestly, I didn't know that there were coupons associated with high amounts of CSC being bought. I assumed there was no compensation, but I realize that even if I had known, it wouldn't have made me buy more CSC. I just didn't, and don't, have the money to be shelling out $50 for CSC. Nothing against Subeta, nothing against anything other than my current financial state. I like the site for the community, for the pets, for the quests. I will pay for another pet slot. I will pay for the occasional GA. I will pay for the benefits that paying gets me, not because I get some money back for that payment. Not having it isn't stopping me.

In the end, I look at it this way: A savvy business owner is going to look to the future and change policies based on cost-benefit analyses, statistics, and the pitfalls that will be associated with a particular move. And that business owner will make decisions that will piss off a few for the good of the many. It’s rare that you get to make a decision that pisses off none and benefits all. And yeah, this decision does piss me off, some, even though I never bought enough CSC to have it matter. But I also understand where they’re coming from, or at least, I’m trying super-hard to understand. It helps that Keith has already said on this topic that he’s looking at his options to reward the faithful:

I guess you can say I still have faith in Keith, in the site, and in the ability for us to get past the lack of improvements. Maybe it's misplaced faith, but I have it nonetheless. Subeta isn't perfect, but it isn't the worst, and the userbase that Blanche praised is a big part of why I think Subeta can and will improve.

- Oh, good. I am glad what I was saying was sensible. Honestly the way I was feeling and am still, I wanted to be careful with a topic like this, but not wait too long and be irrelevant.

I'm disappointed to see the coupons go, but even more disappointed to feel that any conversation on the matter was shut down before it even began by not allowing comments on the news post. And then disappointed further to see that it took significant prodding to get a reason for the removal of the coupons and assurance that other large-purchase-incentives are being considered. This information should have been included in the original news post. Provided that other incentives are being considered, sure, get rid of the coupons if they really are that bad in terms of income loss. But remind users that you are looking at other ways to make it feel like a good idea to buy lots of CSC at once, or we'll assume the worst.

--

And can I just say, I really feel like it's counter-productive to complain about Subeta's business strategies while simultaneously suggesting that they fire some of their staff members. I mean, sure, don't take on any new artists right now. That makes sense. I know the art department is overworked, but I don't think they're the priority at the moment. But to suggest that the solution to Subeta's problems is to make it an even more stressful experience to be an artist here by taking away any existing sense of job security and overworking them further? To think that this kind of work environment for staff will make Subeta better for users is naive. Most customer don't exactly have a whole host of good things to say about service industry businesses where the staff are totally miserable.

And then there are complaints all the time that there's too much focus on cash shop items and less on non-CSC items; won't this only worsen if there are fewer artists? The artists that remain will have to bring Subeta the same amount of money as a larger group, and the only items that actively bring in money are cash shop items... which means a higher proportion of CS items. Or am I totally off-base here? I mean, hey, feel free to correct me, I've never run a site.

I agree with some of the frustration here, but... I'm guessing that this change was mostly to prevent people from.. like, buying just enough CSC to get a good discount and then stockpiling more small amounts of CSC over time, and eventually using their discount to buy a huge amount of items and save a ton of CSC on those items. This is something I've been guilty of myself, haha; I can't remember if I ever bought a whole ton of things at once, but I did usually save my coupons and stuff for when I was buying at least a few items.

Maybe coupons could be kept, but reworked, with more of a limit placed on them? When I see coupons and such given out in stores, or sales and that kind of thing, it's more along the lines of "buy one, get one free!" or a coupon for 20% or so on off on one item -- not "buy credit for the site and get a discount of a certain percentage, which can be used on any amount of cash shop items you want, at any time in the future!" I can really see how this would be a loss to Subeta, and while I was disheartened at the change at first, when you think about the possibility of this being done, it makes sense that it needs to be changed! (Though if I'm wrong about how the coupons worked, sorry omg. I don't usually buy things in bulk except during sales!)

A couple points after reading through this. Again.

1. Do not bring up the hiring/firing of staff. The last time I remember a topic like this being brought up with very rational view (another topic I read through in its entirety) it was closed without warning due to this topic. Just avoid it. Please. Because this topic has some seriously decent points from users.

2. - I'm glad you agree with changing denominations for more purchased CSC, but I'm curious how that differs from the coupon codes? If you're taking 20% off 5000 CSC how is that different from giving you an extra 500-1000 CSC? The items idea I like, though! I always have. It also gives the crystal shop, free shop, etc. an item pool to pick from. Because a few years down the line those items will be terri-bad to come by.

3. I'm curious how waiting over two years (I've lost track of time at this point) for a recode is something that isn't outlandish considering Subeta is apparently a real business and this is all of your jobs. People have deadlines all the time. I don't think I've run into a company that's been in business this long by making a name for itself through disappointing its user base consistently.

4. I'm just posting this again because, as usual, it was completely moved over by staff after they thought the phrase would dig them out of something:

   Quote by Tribunal

   
   I think my opinion of the site, it&;s business acumen, and management is pretty clear, so I&;ll just say this: last I checked, Agoge isn&;t actually legally incorporated at a current address. The Virginia registration auto-termed, no record in California (one address pop, but no actual encorp), no record in Illinois, Delaware, etc. Unless there&;s a fairly new DBA in place (and even that would pop in some searches) or the incorporation has been moved to an unrelated state or country (that isn&;t Delaware), Subeta doesn&;t appear to be kosher at the moment.</p>
   </li>
   </ol>
   <p>I could certainly be wrong, but I did do pretty fair due diligence. I even searched a paid copy of D&amp;B/Hoovers.</p>
   <p>I think that speaks to everything above and then some.
   
   5. My final point, I promise. Because as said before, I really dislike beating dead horses. It's sort of past that point and I feel like the whole of Subeta's user base has just trod into animal cruelty from how severely this horse has been beat for years. Something that hasn't been pointed out as explicitly: We, the user base, are extremely willing to not only wait, but help you in whatever you need. This has been proven time and time again. We obviously help support you financially -- whether we're buying a product or not; ever wondered why people boycotting a certain product is ridiculously effective? Because people can live without it. Always. We, especially comes to mind, are more than willing to come up with ideas to fix a site. We come back in the sheer hope that things we've been upset with will improve. We make boards like this to let you know we aren't happy. You can literally sit there and wave at us as we walk out when we're frustrated. We walk you to the trough, point to the hole in it, offer you duct tape, and nudge you towards it. We can do nothing else and yet we're avoided, pushed around like a hockey puck, and told to enjoy what we get because it is better than it was. And why? Because there are things you're uncomfortable about replying to.

   Well, lovey, I'm uncomfortable about putting an excessive amount of money into a bottomless pit. If you're looking at the comments here and thinking nothing other than "you're buying a product," then there are larger issues. You said that you lose money on every item that isn't a CS item, yes? Then aren't you still technically losing money if only half of that CS items gets purchased as opposed to what you expected? I was on Arvee's So Fetch today. Regular wearables have twenty-two 1,000 item pages. Custom wearables? Nine 1,000 item pages. We have almost half of the amount of on-site wearables as custom wears. I'll say that's 8,000 just for the benefit of the doubt. 8,000 items times 50$? That is 400,000 dollars. Minimum. And how long has this custom wear project been going on? I just. I see things like this and I sort of crumble, ya know?

   If were doing bad financially? Cut back on the events! Andrea suggested it and I think it's great! Tell us that you're putting all your efforts into the recode. That you have something giant planned for when it's done, but until that point we're having simple, easy-going activities. For six months. A year, even. One whole year of simple site events. Even typing that out, though, just reading it again, I scoffed at myself. Because I don't even believe me when I make a suggestion like that.

   This topic was created because your users feel under-appreciated. If the number of thought out, coherent, help-based, and all-around respectful replies here doesn't tell you something is wrong, then I don't know what ever will.

   [edit] Lalalala, I suck at brackets. ❤️

Bless your post

This! I might not be willing to donate to this site again because I constantly feel as though there is no communication or improvements.. but I do not think users should be demanding people get fired simply over money.

While I share your view, I said that in regards to the fact a separate topic was brought up and shot down due to having traveled into discussion about staff. I said that in hopes that people would avoid those topics so as to refrain from being locked again. ❤️

Oh, I agree completely with that. I really think demanding people lose their jobs is just foolish. I also remember that topic as well and I remember the reaction. ^_^; Sorry if I sounded sarcastic.

Maybe they're taking the coupons away so they'll have more money left over to donate to the animals.

...No, but in all seriousness, I'm just..ugh. I don't know anymore. I feel like at this point almost nothing on this site surprises me anymore. I've almost gotten to the point where I honestly could not care less. It would have been nice to at least have been given the opportunity to respond on the news post, but as per usual, we're just blown off. This is really nothing new, just another way for them to yoink a couple extra bucks out of the site. It kind of makes me sad to see this site gradually reinterpret it's users into being purely customers. This really isn't much of a "free" site anymore, it's a business, in for the cash and not much else. What else is there to say? Subeta as per usual these days, I suppose.

Haha, yay then! Yeah, we did have coupons, I can't remember / wasn't here to know how they were before, but until... two days ago we'd get 5% for purchasing 2k, 8% for purchasing 2.5k, 10% for purchasing 3k and (the now famous) 20% for purchasing 5k! I don't think most people cared about 5 or 8% anyway, though ^_^;

I do think there were some improvements happening, yep! I just think we're all craving a major overhaul so much, because the site keeps crashing every event and it's so disheartening that it never changes considerably ;-; However I agree with you, it's likely that there are hidden costs there that we never imagined, which is why the idea of a general expenses breakdown could still be nice, even without very detailed numbers ^_^ If we suddenly find out (for example) the site has to spend a major chunk of money to keep new servers (and related technical services) that will eventually be able to support the new code properly, it would make it more clear that maybe staff just hasn't been throwing cash parties all this time. xD (Or, like the more popular version says, that Keith isn't taking all the cash on his vacations!)

Props to you terrific users for posting on this thread with suggestions, replies and just generally thought out posts. Props to everyone on this thread for expressing an opinion that a lot of people would not even think of posting. Users that know the truth but won't stand up and say it. So I thank everyone on this thread for getting riled up and not just shaking our heads like we're so accustomed to. We're sick of it subeta and we want change

I'm honestly starting to feel like a milk cow, but the kind that is being milked but not fed. I feel like i'm being milked out of my money, but all i'm being fed is empty promises.

If you want more money, how about starting to give us things (not talking about cash, i'm talking about working features), then we'll start giving back. I think, many of us currently feel like our money is being taken, and just disappearing into people's pockets. Because it's been two years since cw's came around, even the small guesses at the profit of cw's show that there really is enough money to change things, but guess what? Nothing changes.

The site still consists out of broken pieces constantly being taped together, the magical recode (just like many people predicted from the start): surprise surprise, still hasn't happened and it sounds more likely that we'll all have a unicorn in our backyard than we'll have a recode anywhere soon. Those magical servers that were supposed to solve the lag problem on events, again, we'll more likely to have a living breathing unicorn than an event on subeta without lag. It says much about the quality of the website/service that when shit goes wrong people say: well, that's new not. And that people start doing a dance worshipping the subeta gods when finally something actually works like it should.

Before taking away more of our money for profit, maybe consider showing that you actually do something with the money already taken from us. Because milk cows that aren't being fed die. And as someone who actively referred people to the site and tried to convince people to stay, I can say: no you won't find a replacement for your current dying milk cows, because subeta is too damn complicated and people don't stay.

When I purchase CSC I am exchanging money for different money. That is all. I get what I paid for. I don't know why I'm still surprised when people feel entitled to freebies and such. I could understand if I clicked a button that said, "Give us 100 and magical recode will appear!" but I don't. I click the "1000 Cash shop Credits" button and lo and behold, thats what I get!

Yes coupon codes are nice, everyone enjoys a good discount, but logically thats not really how shops work. Yeah, some things may be on sale, but rarely will you get a" X% off your entire purchase!" and generally if you do there is a set monetary limit ie: Spend 40 and get 5 off!

THIS IS AN FYI POST. I have ONE 10% Cash Shop Coupon just lying around. If you should need it, feel free to mail me!

20% off is my only incentive to go for the 5000 right, so if you take it away i'll probably only buy csc when there's an item promotion or a low amount when there's a cw i want. no big deal there, because i'd still be buying but just in smaller amounts. but say a promo item is being given w/ the purchase of csc, then if i wanted 5000 csc i might as well just buy 10 lots of 500, when there's a promo, and get 10 of the promo item instead of 1 item and a coupon? wouldn't that be a bit of a problem? or is that when the coupons would be brought back in to give incentive to get the 5000 and not get 10 promo items?

does that even make sense urp