Isn't there some kind of in-between option to tweak the vending system? Are the only options to leave them as they are or get rid of them? I don't vend ever so it wouldn't really affect me, but what if each machine limited you to like ~50 vends a day? Maybe increase the token charge by 1-3 tokens?

I love Vending. However, I still see a HUGE need for their use to be reigned in, not completely shut down but reigned in. I've always thought that there should be a limit of some sort on the number of vends you can do per day. I don't know if it should be a set number for each machine per day or a set number total and you have to choose which of the machines to divide your quota for the day between. The latter would be more interesting. You could also introduce random events that give you extra vends for that day and there could be an option to spend CSC on special vending tokens that give you extra vends on a single day per use.

Everything else has a limit, either a time limit, daily limit or a quantity and competition limit but vending machines have been open season since day one. In other debates on the subject it has been brought up that if vending is limited then restocking should be limited as well but in all honesty they are not the same thing. With vending, you just sit and spend all of your tokens and get a random item with every click at a set price. Whereas with restocking you have to pick and choose which items are worth going for based on resale value and the really cheap useless items get left there and are not automatically spewed into the system. Not to mention the competition with other users for the same limited number of items that come into a shop during restock that are worth buying.

As to users getting ticked off, Subeta is your baby and you have to worry about what is better for it and users as a whole in the long run. Have I liked every decision you've ever made in my 7 plus years here... no, but I know you have the best interests of Subeta and it's users at heart.

On the subject of the millionaire center, crystal shop and recycle beast, I ALWAYS forget the recycle beast and I have tons of items I'd love to turn in but for some reason I can't remember or it's too frustrating to find the items, transfer them to my inventory and then turn them in. It'd be cool if there was a link on the recycle beast page telling me if I had them and where they were so I could click it and it get them and turn them in. As it is now, I have to do an account search on every single item and then track them down if I have any. I also have a shit ton of items that I would frag but they don't take retired /special items and finding the items they will take that are stashed in my shops/vault is sometimes a headache. The millionaire center has been doing good with the seasonal items and that new book thing took a chunk of my money, lol. Would possibly like to see a set of items be put in a chance box or bag type thing for the gamblers among us. They work well in the Cash shop maybe the millionaire center, recycle beast or other places could have their own sp/point risking items as well.

I feel vending machines would be highly unenjoyable if there was a daily limit. Most of the items you vend are barely worth anything to begin with and you usually have to vend at least 100+ times to get anything even somewhat decent.

Plus, there are achievements encouraging us to do it 50,000 times. So a daily limit would really stink for that. xD

I think a lot of players would get really annoyed if there was yet another feature which cost CSC so a free random event for extra vends would be the better option. Limiting the number of vends would have three drawbacks, though - (1) Less Wizard tokens used up so their value would go down (2) People have spent thousands of tokens trying to get the Snow Dusted Bloodred Apple from the Graveyard machine. If vending was reigned in there would be even less chance of getting it. and (3) it would be even harder to get the 45K super shop achievement without vending.

quote=ciannwn it would be even harder to get the 45K super shop achievement without vending.[/quote] said there will be a limit on shops and galleries so I'm assuming that the highest tiers will eventually be retired anyway.

, yes, this is true in the short term but with less useless items being spewed into the system their values would eventually increase over time (or maybe a subetateam shopping spree) and you wouldn't need to vend so much to get worthwhile items. The way it is now is a self defeating system. The limits would be on every one so it would even out eventually as items got bought out/used from user shops.

I'm sure that if the limits were put in place Keith would adjust the rarity of certain items as well.

As to the achievements getting harder to get, they wouldn't be harder, they would just take longer. I agree it would be frustrating but possibly a necessary evil IF this even gets implemented, they are only suggestions.

Caligo and I are trying to come up with suggestions relating to doing away with the vending machines in this topic - The issues with the vending machine? and it's not easy because there are so many different factors to take into account. This could be why Keith ending up revamping them instead of eliminating them.

I remember a time before vending machines (vaguely, anyways) and I know that before they were introduced... questing was next to impossible because it depending entirely on people restocking, and basically everything was 20k+.

They also help balance things out for weekend quests (like Maleria's keywords etc). So vending to me is kinda like a necessary evil? But, that doesn't mean it can't be modified.

1. Why don't some vending machines cost more than others? Like what if one had all that glitters, tique, and idk... the apocalyptic apothecary? But vending there costed 50 wizard tokens (approx. 200k a vend). I mean, you might get that 5m tique wig.. or boosters, or you might get a 500 sP dark water potion. Or why not a vending machine that's 10-15 per vend but gives out normal/rares from any shop + a chance of super rare? Though I suppose that'd only be worth it if the SRs were collectively worth something hold new items/potions |D

2. Why don't we have a vending machine that vends holiday items @ Quentin's rising quest cost that's really becoming unworthwhile even with amulets (I like the concept, don't get me wrong, but their quest's cost 10-15k a pop now and the items they give are literally worthless outside of a select few like books... something that could be easily solved if they gave out holiday shop items or idk, the not-graveyard shop items had rarities again.. but that's a horse of another color). There's literally 6k+ r175 items as par subetalodge at this point... I think vending these could be tried.

3. I love the idea of a vending per day cap. 1k tokens = 500 items. So, a 1-2k per day cap seems like, enough considering how worthless most items seem to be presently.

4. To combat the massive deflation caused by vending, the fragger was created. Now, I LOVE the fragger. Love. It... however, it's really mind numbing to hunt down the cheapest restocking items and buy them in mass/try to shift through the mega vending shops for the cheapest items) because if an item is under rare it may or may not give you a crystal. So while I'll pay 1k for a rare item... I won't pay more than 100 sP for a common item that probably isn't going to give me a crystal.

Why not, for a period of time (something like the first week of a month or something) have the fragger give 1 crystal for every item it takes (ie: from r1-99.. no double crystals) and during that period of time fill the crystal shop with items that either need to be put into the system in mass or are useable and will bounce back in price quickly?

Like.. potions for 5k crystals, during fireside burnables for 100 crystals, during vesnali flowers for 100 crystals, luminaire and fairies, bags of trinkets during masquerade for 1k crystals, etc etc. I mean I know there will be people who hoard up 500k crystals but frankly those people are waiting for gods/weapons anyways... and those belong in the battle shop anyways. Or, to be the greatest sP sink, ever, in the MC for 2-3 billion if any of those old school badboys need to be released into the system.

If the economy/prices of items would benefit from that.. then for the good of that those people shouldn't be holding it back. And if it happens once and everything is destroyed... well then at least everyone will have 500k crystals and all the cheap items will die and make vending useful again 8D and people would be capable of earning sP again.

I'd also love for quests to be modeled after Quentin and Mori/Nori, in the sense that they have a theme and while what they ask for might differ... they always give out specific things and only those things. Like why doesn't the Library quest ask for and GIVE books (maybe he has too many copies of them and doesn't need them)? And Pete should ask for and give food, and why doesn't the Geek ask for electronics/home appliances stuff (hey hey could take those lamps and use them for parts, okay)? I mean him giving those out wouldn't be that great as those items don't really have a purpose but hey at least they can be fragged (...Quentin B|...) or turned into other quests like Wiz/Saggi who make sense to ask for everything as they don't have an item theme par say (Saggi has no theme, and wizard tokens aren't a theme XD).

This would be really great for an alternative to vending for new items. New food = Pete, New tc fodder = Geek, new toys = Toy Quest Chick (who should ask for toys, plushies, beanbags, and thimble and co!), etc etc. Then the items people vend/restock would sell because people want to do those quests in hope of getting the new items! And if they don't they can turn around and sell the food they get to other users buying food to try for the new items and so on.

This is because not many players enjoyed restocking and they still don't. We'd be back to everything being ridiculously expensive again unless we had restock wars every so often to bring the prices down.

Ocean Depths gave out SBQ items in the beginning and people complained because they soon became worthless. We no longer get SBQ items from quests for the same reason. Then there's the Snow Dusted Bloodred Apple in the Grave Digger machine - it's as hard to get hold of as the Riptide from Ocean Depths because some people have spent thousands of tokens without any luck. If vending was severely restricted it would have to be moved to the Millionaire Center otherwise nobody would get one.

My shop sales have always varied depending on what the special weekend quest is and this is even more noticeable now that some quests have been revamped so they give out little or no sP unless they are the special weekend quest. Quentin's quests had to be changed to bribe people into doing them with the chance of the occasion good sP payout and a Mage amulet.

I don't enjoy restocking either? My point was, I remember why vending came about in the first place and that chances are if it was removed the same problem would arise within a matter of months.. causing an entirely different problem (people not having the sP and everything costing 20k and thus quests being impossible to complete) xD;

I know why tique was removed, I didn't say put it back in point blank. What I specifically stated was:

I said 50 wiz tokens PER vend and not JUST tique. If everything that came from the vending machine in question cost 200k minimum (roughly the going price of 50 wizard tokens) then it would be pretty hard for things to become dastardly deflated, especially when balanced with another shop that had a great deal of rare items and a great deal of worthless items. This was also an example, that I doubt would work at face value since tique works a different way now but since apparently some people are incapable of taking examples for what they are my point was charge more tokens for a chance of "Rarer" things to reduce the amount of worthless items being created daily.

Achievements, aren't always easy. Just because someone needs to play 500 games of something daily doesn't mean games should be unlimited, either. If the massive amounts of items being created daily has now replaced the amount of sP being created daily.. that is a problem as there's no means of removing said items in mass? If no one is questing and no one is buying items and no one is fragging items but everyone is vending the hell out of items that ultimately no one is doing anything with ... then the items need to be capped because they've basically picked up where the sP problem left off.

It needs to be capped, or there needs to be a reason for people to buy items to complete quests. In this case, quests being un-fixed to give out sP again would probably be the easiest fix. If the amount of sP going out needs to be tinkered with, that's one thing.. or if some give out specific items which is the incentive for people to do them while others give out sP and such, great. But as it is now the massive amounts of items that no one is buying is sorta the problem.

Can you come up with some concrete examples of things which would tempt people into paying 50 tokens per vend for without any guarantee of success? SBQ items can't be included because of the special invitation system. I can't see many people spending 200K per vend just in hope of getting an Apothocary stat booster because it could work out a lot more expensive than buying them from player shops. I certainly wouldn't be tempted when I can just save up battle tokens to spend on stat boosters in the battle shop or get them from doing Shinwa quests. Then there's the fact that we can now get Mage Amulets from doing Quentin quests - there's only a 1/6 chance of ending up with a tome but I think a lot of battlers would rather opt for Quentin quests now there's an occasional high payout. This doesn't mean that nobody would want to gamble Wizard Tokens like this because some people love chance bags but a Token Sink wouldn't sink many tokens if not many people used it.

People do quests when they think they're going to get something worthwhile from it - this is why my shop sales are always a lot better when there's a popular weekend quest. People also have more enthusiasm for fragging when there are items they want in the Crystal Shop - it doesn't get stocked very often, though, and a lot of stuff just sits there for months because nobody wants it. People after Major Drills quest achievements will do some fragging but Drills quests aren't exactly popular.

What kind of specific items could some quests give out? 'Special items' have been tried and there are a lot of complaints that they soon become worthless junk like the Library's special books, Maleria's stew. Drill's plugs and special clothing items and Quentin's Graveyard items which have now ended up as game prizes which are ridiculously devalued.

Caligo and I have been trying to come up with ideas in that Suggestions topic I linked to but it's not easy. There's no point in having a fix which could cause a new set of problems in 6 months time because these would require another fix. I'm guessing that Keith hasn't got rid of the vending machines yet because he's trying to figure out new ways of using Wizard Tokens etc.

Correct me if I am wrong but from your comments you are trying to find a solution that keeps vending the way it is now, unlimited and adjust everything else to compensate for the unending influx of useless items. I honestly don't think there is a solution for what you are looking for that hasn't been tried or thought of already. The only thing left that hasn't been tried is to cap/limit them.

There's a topic about doing away with vending machines in the Suggestions forum - The issues with the vending machine? where Caligo and I have been discussing finding other uses for Wizard Tokens, adding something new to Omen Islands to replace Ocean Depths and the restock algorithm problem which resulted in Orange Sunscreen ending up at over 4 million sP in player shops because it didn't vend and went through a period of not restocking as it should. (It's not the only item which the restock algorthm has taken a temporary dislike to)

Having a machine which costs 50 tokens per vend for the chance of getting certain items is a nice idea in theory but which items would tempt people into using it on a regular basis? The Snow Dusted Bloodred Apple got a lot of people vending at the Gravedigger but they are getting really fed up because it's as rare as a Riptide and they've wasted thousands of tokens - how much longer will this act as a Token Sink while flooding the market with Gravedigger junk? I've been trying to think of items for a 50 token vending machine - SBQ clothing is out because people complained about devaluation when they could be got from Ocean Depths and we now have an invitation system. Some pet colour potions like Graveyard and Nightmare would tempt a lot of people but there's the problem of not making them so rare that people give up trying while keeping them rare enough so nobody complains about devaluation. This just leaves Millionaire Center items but some players make a profit selling popular items from there due to the time restriction so there would be objections to that as well.

EDIT - I've made a new suggestion in the Suggestions forum - Vending Limitation Experiment. I think this would be an easy and practical way of finding out what would happen if vending was done away with.

What about the issue with the games? If I played Matlal's Jewels and sent my score in, I usually get around 20k, or more if I do better. Subeku on Very Hard w/o any mistakes, I get 15k. And the max amount of scores to send is 10.

While I doubt anyone would send in the max amount per day, that's still a lot of sPs generated into the system opposed to sPs being deleted. I hate to bring on the comparison to Neopets, but I think I see the reason why users can only send a max of 3 scores per day (or 5 whenever Neo's having that scores galore weekend/their birthday), and the highest reward is 1k NPs (2k if it's "the game of the day").

Granted, Neo's economy is on a much larger scale than ours, so the comparisons may not be as accurate. But after reading through the various posts on the Dying shops thread--seriously, people should go read this too--I think things are finally beginning to make sense as to why quests, RSing or re-selling items just isn't profitable anymore.

TL;DR: I'd slash the sPs rewards on games. Even if few people play them, just one sent score alone can be damaging. 20k sPs reward for sending in a single score (depending how good people are at some games. Matlal Jewels doesn't require much when you play on Endless mode)? If 50 people played and sent a score in, that's 1 million sPs into the global economy. I highly doubt the sPs deletion rate is able to counter that.

on the topic of the vending discussion:

I think the only way to keep vending the way it is, is forcing people to spend their tokens on something else? If people blow all their money on the token shop (legendaries, anyone?) then they can't vend, or they vend less. I'm obviously not talking about a couple restock with 50 token items, the average user probably owns quite a few tokens, so i'm talking about bigger items. Also the oracle shop used to take wiz tokens I think? Not too sure, i've never been there when it restocked and now it has been taken of the map. Restock the bhh more frequent and with items that require more tokens.

more tokens out of the system > less tokens to vend with > less items getting in circulations > less deflation.

But it's not something you can do constantly :s it's a temporary 'fix'.

I can't see the sense in taking sP away from quests and replacing it with sP from games. I've made a lot of sP from my shop this weekend because Wizard quests are giving a good payout so people are buying more expensive items for it. The only way for player shop stock to shift is if people do quests.

PS:

BHH did restock more often for a while and people complained that BHH items were being devalued. This is why it was changed back.

if there are plenty of items in circulation at high enough token prices they shouldn't devaluate crazy.

I've seen a bunch of people mention more frequent restocks of the Crystal Shop, since each crystal basically represents three junk items being deleted. But it seems to me that a lot of times, Crystal Shop restocks just mean huge shops that tend to accumulate large stacks of junk (I hover between 25k and 50k items in my shop at all times) sell huge numbers of cheap items, but many cheap items don't actually increase in value.

I suspect this has to do with the difficulty of buying multiple items at a time from the Shop Search. I suggest a massive Crystal Shop restock, coupled with, for a limited time, clicking "Buy" on the Shop Search make the purchase without taking the user to the shop (perhaps ever a Super Shop Search, so that users who prefer the current setup aren't bothered). During this period, it would be easier for folks to buy up huge amounts of junk items, pushing their value up and clearing out a large portion of the market of junk.

Shortly after (or at the same time as) the massive Crystal Shop restock, set the Crystal Shop to automatically restock items like any other shop. It would take some tinkering, but the idea would be for there to be a fairly regular demand for Crystals, keeping the price of Crystals constant -- right now, the price fluctuates between 2,500 after long breaks in restocks to 7,000 when something in high demand restocks. Also, perhaps the longer an item sits in the Crystal Shop, the lower its price, so that there's a constant flow of inventory.'

In order to prevent excessive devaluation of presently highly rare items, I would also suggest that after Custom Wearables sit in the Pawn Shop for a length period of time without being purchased, they be moved to the Crystal Shop and included it whatever the limitations on the flow of Crystal Shop restocks are planned. This way, items that are clearly just going to sit in the Pawn Shop get moved to an alternate location without having too large of an impact on sales of CSC.

People honestly didn't enjoy the traditional money-making method of restocking? I've been growing more and more distant from Subeta because of how pointless restocking has become, so that really surprises me, I thought restocking was way more popular.

Also surprising is the statement that all users are not supposed to be able to get all items - I love that, but it feels like getting rid of super-retired and rare holiday stuff worked against that 100%. I used to make all my sP by investing in items I felt would soon retire, but there are now way fewer items like that. It seems like if you wanted more user-to-user sP flow, bringing back those nearly-impossible-to-obtain items would be a good start.

I agree with you fully. The games are great, and even though there isn't too many of them, it's nice they actually HAVE added more, and a majority of them pay excellently. I play games as well as do quests, and it's a great way to get a little bit of buffer before going into the quests that don't reward, or barely reward any sP at all. A lot of the games go by quickly, too. And I agree with you about the CSC, too. Though I am an artist and writer, I choose to not do those things for CSC. Hell, I don't even buy CSC and I'm doing just awesome. The only reason I'd need CSC is for a Gold Account Medal every so often, and I prefer to pay sP for those.

I absolutely LOVED restocking on Subeta when I first started out. I became successful with it, unlike on Neopets. 6 years later, I only check some shops to see if there are any stat boosters stocked or anything that, in theory, would bring in big profit (Ornate floral Pitcher, for example). Now even things like are difficult to resell. I end up losing out on a potential good profit because of the competition with other user shops.

I can't understand why anyone dislikes restocking. It's super fucking easy compared to Neopets. Although I believe the main issue is having to sit and wait for good stuff to show up. Patience is a virtue people. :P When a good item does show up, nothing feels better than that adrenaline rush. It feels great knowing I was the fastest to grab the item everyone wanted.

'cept now I pretty much dread trying to resell it. No one wants to pay a measly 3 mil anymore. Everyone wants it cheaper, like, 100k. I think that's what might be contributing to the economy issue on here. We're all greedy fucks, like Old Scrooge. xD