Duality Quests: More Context

Earlier today we updated what was once the Cursed Quests to be the Duality Quests. I'd like to provide more context into why that change was made, why it's been so long in the making, and how we can move on in a positive way going forward.

First, users brought up the issues regarding how Mori and Nori were portrayed so this brainstorm thread so born. If you look at the date, you can see it was created well over a year ago and users brought it up before that. It's unacceptable that we took so long to address this. While yes, our team is small and incredibly stretched thin, it shouldn't have taken us the amount of time it did. We as a team have a problem with breaking tasks up into smaller things; we always want to do everything at once. In this case, we really thought it made the most sense and was the most respectful to get everything changed at once. It was clearly not the right way to go about things, and I personally want to apologize to those I put off with my "we're working on it" generic comments.

Now, what was the issue with Nori and Mori?

Quote
"Mori and Nori as well as items relating to them have been changed due to the use of terminology that is offensive to those with Dissociative Identity Disorder. While they were not meant to be a direct representation of the disorder, many users have voiced their concerns that the inherent nature of her backstory alongside it being painted in a negative light opened up a lot of opportunities for offensive language being used throughout the site. Since Mori and Nori are such an accessible and essential part of the site, having things like this at the forefront may reenforce the thought that the usage of these terms is acceptable and normalized, which is not what&;s wanted at all in a site that seeks to be inclusive and diverse."

This was beautifully said by user who has experience with DID and has been a champion for educating the staff and users. I asked them to sum up what the problem for users without having to read the entire suggestion thread.

We've updated the text for the Mori and Nori quests (the intro text, the turn in text, the failed quest, the reward text), the quest shop text, the subetapedia main entry about the two as well as the quick facts listed in the quest givers list, and various items around the site. We've also renamed the achievements associated with Mori and Nori. Did we miss something? Please ping me () so I can adjust it.

In the future, I will actively try to not offer excuses ("our team is small" "our focus is on a holiday") and will do my best to work with users to get things updated in a timely manner. This isn't always possible, of course, but I personally could have done a lot better job with this particular issue.

Why does this all matter? Like 's quote says, we really do strive to be inclusive and diverse. We don't want to have things on site that upset users in a negative way like this. It's one thing to not like an item because you think spiders (or something similar) are scary, it's another to have to deal with an item promoting negative stereotypes to a mental health disorder you may have. By not addressing user concerns about Mori and Nori in a timely matter, we as staff made part of our user base feel unheard and unimportant which is never what we want. We've adjusted items with a quick turn around before (Algonquin Plushie comes to mind) and the fact we took over a year to make these changes was plain wrong.

Why post a new news post instead of just adding another comment to the earlier post? The users who brought up the issue with Mori and Nori, continued to fight for the change, and actively tried to educate users and staff deserve this post. They deserve to be publicly acknowledged for the work they did.

October 7, 2023, 12:48 am by Arcana_Apprentice
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Hey I think the Mori|Nori quest thing this week is still broken, it still says Cursed quests. It says for the weekend quests "Bonus Weekend: Cursed Quests"

October 1, 2023, 9:03 pm by Epic
Avatar Border
User Avatar

It would be good in situations like this to show the new content, as I don't know how to find what has changed.

October 1, 2023, 9:03 pm by Epic
Avatar Border
User Avatar

It would be good in situations like this to show the new content, as I don't know how to find what has changed.

October 1, 2023, 9:03 pm by Epic
Avatar Border
User Avatar

It would be good in situations like this to show the new content, as I don't know how to find what has changed.

September 27, 2023, 7:11 pm by Mod
User Avatar

I don't have DID but I have other stigma heavy conditions and THANKYOU!

September 27, 2023, 4:56 pm by KTRoo
Avatar Border
User Avatar

This is a great step. Now can we also get all the egregious "it's so girly!!" sentiments on a bunch of pink stuff descriptions? Some is whatever but there are like dozens of items reiterating how pink can clearly only mean girl obvs

September 27, 2023, 3:06 pm by Belladonna
Avatar Border
User Avatar

i understand and appreciate the change, however i would like to know where i can find screenshots/records of the old quest blurbs and item descs for archival? ive been attempting to create a cohesive archive of older subeta content but its extremely hard to find them since this isnt a super well known site so not a lot of consistent documentation that ive found. this site means so much to me and id hate to see a part of it fade into lost media so suddenly.

September 27, 2023, 2:08 pm by Takarama
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Thank you so much for explaining that to me! I didn't realize that terminology was used, and I definitely can see why that would be hurtful. I'm glad they changed it :) Thank you for taking the time to explain it in more detail! I just was unsure if it was the curse part of the story or if there was direct terminology used, so that clears things up!

September 27, 2023, 12:05 pm by WolfieWU
User Avatar

...And before anyone jumps on my case about being insensitive -- I had a protector identity back in high school, and even if I didn't, it's okay to have a different opinion. I liked the narrative as it was, but I'm sure ya'll can find ways to make it interesting even with the change.

September 27, 2023, 11:33 am by WolfieWU
User Avatar

"During the 2012 survival plot Nori quite literally handcuffed herself to a radiator to prevent Mori from awakening and helping Ecks."

... Man, that sounds cool as HELL and I'm sad I missed it! We shouldn't have changed the evil part at all!

September 27, 2023, 1:02 am by Ange
Avatar Border
User Avatar

huh, i never really knew the details as to why i always skipped nori/mori quests come quest time, but this explains a LOT.

glad to see responsibility & accountability take place here.

be well everyone! <3

September 26, 2023, 7:09 pm by Inknote
Avatar Border
User Avatar

i respect the fuck outta yall for not only making this change, but making a SECOND news post like this. seeing, appreciating, and listening to the userbase is one of the things i love most about subeta

September 26, 2023, 1:01 pm by pythonesque
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Thank you for the change! I agree that Duality is a much cooler name and concept, on top of addressing the issues of ableism. I also appreciate you being upfront and honest about this taking longer than is should have to be handled. ❤️ I've been following that thread for awhile and I was excited to come back to Subeta to this news!

September 26, 2023, 10:30 am by Rat
Avatar Border
User Avatar

the threads here have more info from those with DID on why mori/nori and some of the associated items/achievement names were specifically asked to be changed:

https://subeta.net/forums.php/read/925130 https://subeta.net/forums.php/read/925767/MoriNoriMono-Ri-suggestions

most specifically, the phrases "two faced" and "split personality" are considered rude and out of date ways to refer to Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka DID), even though Mori/nori wasn't specifically made with that in mind, thier story was still too close a parallel to continue to be associated with those phrases, so staff decided on a full rewrite that replaced not only the out of date/rude phrases, but also changed the lore to be less similar to those irl with DID

While I can see where you are coming from, I am choosing to take this as Subeta committing to be better about these matters in general moving forward. Users really only asked for a change to one item and one achievement, if you read the threads linked above it was Subeta team that decided to do an entire revamp, but then them taking long with not many updates is what led to a lot of upset, and then hence why there has been such a big apology post for it

As i say in my first post on this news post, I really do hope they are better about all types of sensitivity changes in the future, and I gestured towards the Item Name/Description Update thread to hopefully get some updates soon.

If there is something you want changed, advocate for it and make a post on that thread or a new thread. The only reason this change happened was because people with DID and others who are supportive campaigned for the change :)

September 26, 2023, 3:05 am by Tribunal
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Frustrating that a (fairly niche) change has been met with such adulation when previous attempts at much more common issues got a lot lot lot more derision. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the change and feel it was called for. I just wish it mattered less who was calling for it.

And that wide gap between criticism and abuse is lookin' a little narrow atm. Nothing feels worse than complaining about unequal enforcement leading to unequal enforcement.

I'm trying to put this nicely/calmly. If the issue is just closed for discussion it would be nice if that could be said.

September 25, 2023, 8:41 pm by Takarama
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Thank you for this change <3 Is it possible to have the issue explained in more detail to me? I'm a writer and would love to know what specific concerns were raised so I can educate myself further It's been a few years since I delved into the lore so I'm a bit lost on what was changed haha but if it makes people more comfy then I'm happy with it!

September 25, 2023, 7:56 pm by errant
Avatar Border
User Avatar

This is why I love this site &community.

September 25, 2023, 12:08 am by Galaxia
Avatar Border
User Avatar

I am going to be hiding most new comments to turn down the heat and that button automatically comes with a request to review the community guidelines. It is not an automatic strike against you or judgement of your comment. Just take a breath, maybe do some quests for the midnight turnover.

September 25, 2023, 12:02 am by Sprinter137
Avatar Border
User Avatar

What is the point of bragging about how great your life is? That's called privilege so maybe you should read about the struggles of others and get over yourself

September 24, 2023, 11:57 pm by Frankenchokies
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Also uh, how the FRAK did I violate community guidelines by posting a pic of Professor Farnsworth not wanting to live on this planet anymore in reaction to a news story argument?

How the... it's just because I'm me, right?

September 24, 2023, 11:46 pm by Frankenchokies
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Hey guys, hey! Raise your hand if you're a cisgendered heterosexual of average body weight, not over or under at all, with zero mental or physical problems, no childhood trauma, and have always had enough money to live comfortably.

Anyone?

September 24, 2023, 9:53 pm by Tribunal
Avatar Border
User Avatar

It's only cool to hate on people bringing up potential inclusivity changes if you're popular and/or staff.

September 24, 2023, 9:37 pm by Galaxia
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Comments about DID being fake WILL be treated as community guideline violations. Don't do it.

The...unpleasantness in the punchbowl is being handled. Other comments from the same source will be similarly flushed. Everyone else, while I appreciate your passion for calling out a bad take, please let it go now.

September 24, 2023, 9:32 pm by Duane
User Avatar

Thank you to everyone who blocked me

September 24, 2023, 7:39 pm by InSaNe
Avatar Border
User Avatar

September 24, 2023, 7:01 pm by Serena
Avatar Border
User Avatar

September 24, 2023, 6:54 pm by demon
Avatar Border
User Avatar

It did not!!! Mr send this thread to the principal's office and have it expelled!!!

September 24, 2023, 6:53 pm by eye
Avatar Border
User Avatar

This thread ruined my dream journal!!!

September 24, 2023, 5:24 pm by demon
Avatar Border
User Avatar

fr tho let this shit die, thanks subeta for the change anyway heres wonderwall

September 24, 2023, 5:21 pm by demon
Avatar Border
User Avatar

does anyone in this thread smoke weed

September 24, 2023, 4:52 pm by Serena
Avatar Border
User Avatar

I've held my tongue up until this point because I don't really like conflict, but seeing as this is still going on I'm going to try and nicely explain the issue because I've seen you say a number of incorrect things:

  1. No one "bitched and cried" until they got their way. If you read the original thread, you can actually see a number of users who have DID just wanted the achievement changed originally as it was an outdated and offensive term, and were displeased with the turnaround time on that caused by the rewrite. Everyone who replied was also extremely respectful and constructive, even if the tone was sometimes harsh during later pages (after promised changes were repeatedly delayed). No one held staff hostage and forced them to rewrite Mono Ri.

  2. Until this point, Mori was unambiguously evil. She was a servant of Maleria and her page blurb said "Evil will always prevail." During the 2012 survival plot Nori quite literally handcuffed herself to a radiator to prevent Mori from awakening and helping Ecks. There is an item further down this thread called the "Staff of Good and Evil" that has Mori and Nori's wings on it. The only major lore change that's been made is that Mori is no longer evil. Nori and Mori are still functionally the same.

  3. It's not a matter of "hurt feelings" or edgy humor, it's a matter of it just being plain ableist with no punchline, and people were not wrong to call that out. You're a veteran, would you be maintaining this energy if Subeta made a character that read as being hateful or insulting to the troops or the disabled?

I don't intend for this post to be rude, but I don't think you truly grasp the issue people are complaining about here. If it were just petty whining, staff would have just ignored it like the many other items that have gone unchanged on the suggested revisions board. I understand and am sympathetic to the fact that you do not like this change, but it was a necessary one. Like you said: it's a game. Everyone deserves to be able to have fun, and Mono Ri's story previously impeded that for many users. I hope you can better understand why people fought for this after this post.

September 24, 2023, 4:28 pm by Jess
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Can we please have this news post locked or at least moderated to make sure the community guidelines are being followed? It’s veered beyond its original intention and it’s painful to watch at this point.

September 24, 2023, 4:14 pm by SaboKat
Avatar Border
User Avatar

because hes da jokah babey

September 24, 2023, 3:25 pm by Duane
User Avatar

I could careless about the change it's the point of the change to cater to a few people and I am an American I belong to the American Party I support America I am a 100% disabled Veteran but I don't bitch and cry to get my way cuz I got my feelings hurt over a game that has nothing to do with their real life if it does then step the fuck back and reevaluate your life

September 24, 2023, 3:18 pm by Sprinter137
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Why is being kind and respectful SO angering and upsetting to you? You've posted like 86 comments about this. We get it, you're a jerk and enjoy seeing people suffer. I wonder what political party you support 🙄

September 24, 2023, 2:50 pm by Rat
Avatar Border
User Avatar

i cant believe being nice to people and being respectful to people is so controversial. these comment sections always bring out the assholes quite frankly, whether its bringing in more pride items, updating stuff for sensitivity or to just even update from the past cringeyness, why do people cling to rude shit so much???? like does it make you happy to see stuff that you think is dunking on others for no reason? go back to truth social or whatever it is you people like now

September 24, 2023, 1:44 pm by Darkrai
Avatar Border
User Avatar

"Oh no a change was made so a marginalized group is no longer uncomfortable. What is this world coming to T_T" Cope. What is wrong with some of you.

September 24, 2023, 12:55 pm by Narshe
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Sounds like you care a bit too much considering you responded so often here. It's understandable it makes no sense to you because you're not being affected. This is not about how YOU personally feel when you aren't the targeted audience for this announcement. It was announced however to everyone, because it was a site decision that would be noticeable for daily users. Please try and be at least a bit more understanding when there are multiple discussions from users that were affected and their further insight on the matter.

You could try and be more engaging on why you disagree on the decision instead of being determined to push the narrative that this was an insignificant problem.

September 24, 2023, 12:49 pm by ChatLunatique
Avatar Border
User Avatar

While I was previously almost completely uninformed about DID, I was personally annoyed by the whole darkness/night = evil defamation..., so I applaud these changes for my own personal reasons.
I find myself very thankful for all the Subetans who brought this issue up and fought for it, not only because it brought abought a change that I can appreciate, but it educated me about a disorder that I had not thought about much previously. Thank you for all your efforts!

...and please let's be civil to people with differing opinions. We may not agree with them, but everyone should be able to express their negative or positive feelings over changes on the site equally. (no matter how wrong-headed the way they worded their comments may sound)

September 24, 2023, 12:33 pm by Duane
User Avatar

I wish all of you would quit crying about your disorders if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen ... I don't understand y we keep bowing down to people's feelings this is a INTERNET GAME, not real life 😭.. just to reiterate what I already said I don't care about the change the point is it changed for the wrong reasons, and again WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS WORLD COMING TO, when we cry and complain to get what we want and everyone else is supposed to care about how feel ... What percent of users complained about this 1% to 1.5% if that so change the whole game for them it's ridiculous

September 24, 2023, 10:45 am by They
Avatar Border
User Avatar

I can't say this is something I ever would have thought about or drawn parallels to, but I'm glad a needed change was made, and I'm touched at the amount of care and compassion for your userbase ♥

September 24, 2023, 4:55 am by Higanbana
Avatar Border
User Avatar

A touch late to the party, but still wanna throw in my two cents. Thank you to the team for updating these characters and the quests surrounding them to be more inclusive and less reliant on well outdated tropes. While Mori and Nori's situation isn't a one to one parallel to DID and other dissociative disorders, it's easy to see how people with these disorders saw themselves in the characters. You guys could've easily turned a blind eye to this, but instead you not only rose to the occasion of rewriting gods knows how many things, AND you also apologized for the fact that you hadn't been able to tackle the issue.

I myself don't have any dissociative disorders, but I'm good friends with a few systems and seeing this change warms my heart. Mori and Nori's quests are some of my favorites, hella looking forward to doing their quests and seeing the new changes.

Once again, thank you for listening to your community and stepping up to make changes. You all are awesome.

September 24, 2023, 4:05 am by Malachi
Avatar Border
User Avatar

This will be my final comment on this news post because quite frankly, I'm going to be taking the massive L here regarding my talk of diabetes. I apologize immensely for not realizing just how intertwined diabetes is with mental health and social issues (I never thought anything of people checking blood sugars or using insulin or the likes, so I wrongly assumed most people are the same way as I am, but they unfortunately aren't), along with using very harmful terms such as "diabetic" and "control" in relation to diabetes. I had already understood things such as managing your diet/portions and that people with diabetes face physical issues, but I was very uneducated about the matter as a whole and for that, I am very sorry and I understand if I've further hurt people with diabetes because of my ignorance.

If anyone would like to talk further, whether about diabetes (I'd be happy to hear info firsthand tbh) or about the original issue (Mono Ri & DID), please feel free to comment or mail me. Thank you.

September 24, 2023, 3:37 am by Malachi
Avatar Border
User Avatar

Since I see my comments on diabetes have upset some people, I'm going out of my way right now to read more about it. I apologize in advance for anything I said that was insensitive but my point was not that "diabetics are less important" or "diabetics are perfectly in control of their illness". I intended it as a way of saying "mental illnesses like DID are much more uncontrollable than something like diabetes" and "candy is a choice you make when you know you have diabetes" — however, I'm also aware that it's a matter of portion control, and I did not convey that I knew that.

Like I said, I'm reading up on it now, and I heavily apologize for any misinformation/incorrect statements I said.

September 24, 2023, 3:23 am by Dandelion
Avatar Border
User Avatar

I would like to know why the same usernames are still able to spew the same tired, pathetic attempts at hate on every single post about inclusivity. For years, in most cases. Mods, please. Can we just stop these few certain people saying it now? They've had more than enough chances.

September 24, 2023, 2:57 am by Roadkill
Avatar Border
User Avatar

can we please not spread very easily debunked myths about a disease you blatantly admit you haven't researched literally on a news post about not spreading bad misconceptions about a disease?

September 24, 2023, 12:37 am by Rarface
User Avatar

I appreciate this opportunity to learn and have empathy for people I never considered needed it. Thank you, to those who fought for this, for the learning lesson!

September 23, 2023, 11:39 pm by Malachi
Avatar Border
User Avatar

The point went absolutely over your head in this case. Physical illnesses are no less serious and not always the person's fault — not once did I put blame on a person for having diabetes. It's the fact if you know something will hurt your health severely, why would you do it? Having diabetes is horrific, no matter which type it is, and I would never say "well you did it to yourself". What I am saying is "you have to be careful about your health so why would you purposely choose to do something harmful".

That's like saying my best friend's shellfish allergy is their fault. lmfao no But they... you know... choose not to eat shellfish because they know about their allergy and that it'll badly hurt and possibly kill them?

September 23, 2023, 11:24 pm by bonecrivain
User Avatar

Making a super long post talking about how physical illnesses are your fault for not finding ways to simply control it and be healthier is really not the win you think it is.

Mental and physical illnesses aren't a contest and that post left a SUPER bad taste in my mouth.

September 23, 2023, 10:21 pm by Estinien
Avatar Border
User Avatar

As one of the users w/ DID, thank you SO much for making this change--it really means a lot to us. The change to the lore is very welcome as well--both including dissociative rep as well as separating Mori and Nori themselves from their previous version. Thank you again for taking accountability, it's very nice to be acknowledged like this in a supportive way.

We also love a lot of the item description updates! As [user=TheGhostHybrid ] pointed out -- I think this was like this before the update, but this is SO sweet, it really nailed one of the positive sides of our condition.

summarized our feelings SUPER well on this. In addition to seeing language changed on the site, it's also just a huge confidence booster to see "no, actually, people with dissociative disorders aren't the monsters society at large makes them out to be. We [as singlets/non-systems/etc] WANT to and SUPPORT this change" from both staff and a majority of the users. 💖

Leave a Comment

Use @username to mention someone. Supports markdown formatting.