Duality Quests: More Context

September 22, 2023 8:38 pm

Earlier today we updated what was once the Cursed Quests to be the Duality Quests. I'd like to provide more context into why that change was made, why it's been so long in the making, and how we can move on in a positive way going forward.

First, users brought up the issues regarding how Mori and Nori were portrayed so this brainstorm thread so born. If you look at the date, you can see it was created well over a year ago and users brought it up before that. It's unacceptable that we took so long to address this. While yes, our team is small and incredibly stretched thin, it shouldn't have taken us the amount of time it did. We as a team have a problem with breaking tasks up into smaller things; we always want to do everything at once. In this case, we really thought it made the most sense and was the most respectful to get everything changed at once. It was clearly not the right way to go about things, and I personally want to apologize to those I put off with my "we're working on it" generic comments.

Now, what was the issue with Nori and Mori?

Quote

"Mori and Nori as well as items relating to them have been changed due to the use of terminology that is offensive to those with Dissociative Identity Disorder. While they were not meant to be a direct representation of the disorder, many users have voiced their concerns that the inherent nature of her backstory alongside it being painted in a negative light opened up a lot of opportunities for offensive language being used throughout the site. Since Mori and Nori are such an accessible and essential part of the site, having things like this at the forefront may reenforce the thought that the usage of these terms is acceptable and normalized, which is not what&;s wanted at all in a site that seeks to be inclusive and diverse."

This was beautifully said by user who has experience with DID and has been a champion for educating the staff and users. I asked them to sum up what the problem for users without having to read the entire suggestion thread.

We've updated the text for the Mori and Nori quests (the intro text, the turn in text, the failed quest, the reward text), the quest shop text, the subetapedia main entry about the two as well as the quick facts listed in the quest givers list, and various items around the site. We've also renamed the achievements associated with Mori and Nori. Did we miss something? Please ping me () so I can adjust it.

In the future, I will actively try to not offer excuses ("our team is small" "our focus is on a holiday") and will do my best to work with users to get things updated in a timely manner. This isn't always possible, of course, but I personally could have done a lot better job with this particular issue.

Why does this all matter? Like 's quote says, we really do strive to be inclusive and diverse. We don't want to have things on site that upset users in a negative way like this. It's one thing to not like an item because you think spiders (or something similar) are scary, it's another to have to deal with an item promoting negative stereotypes to a mental health disorder you may have. By not addressing user concerns about Mori and Nori in a timely matter, we as staff made part of our user base feel unheard and unimportant which is never what we want. We've adjusted items with a quick turn around before (Algonquin Plushie comes to mind) and the fact we took over a year to make these changes was plain wrong.

Why post a new news post instead of just adding another comment to the earlier post? The users who brought up the issue with Mori and Nori, continued to fight for the change, and actively tried to educate users and staff deserve this post. They deserve to be publicly acknowledged for the work they did.

September 23, 2023, 11:21 am by

Is there anywhere that compares the old vs new lore, quest texts, and item descriptions? Honestly just want to see all the differences out of pure curiosity.

September 23, 2023, 10:49 am by

Hi, here to answer a few things before I do all the Autumn things and then back to my shabbat time.

For the title - yes! We're not deleting 'cursed' as a forum title, we're just not having it associated with the Duality quests any more. Oh! I must've thought it matched up with the cursed minion because of the colors. I'll adjust that later. It was important to our users to address this. It doesn't hurt the to own up to mistakes on my part, so I'm happy to do this for users. While this is mostly centered around the issue of changing Mori and Nori, it is also about the fact that it took well over a year to address something that could've been done a lot faster. I posted multiple times things like "Oh, we're working on it" or "We're a small team it's not been forgotten". This is criticism we've had before for things and mostly we've brushed it off but I think it's best to address it and move forward. Thanks! Will attack these when I'm really working tomorrow.

September 23, 2023, 10:41 am by

thank you for listening to users on their frustrations and doing this overhaul. there's always going to be at least some complainers but I'm comforted that the reception to this change is for the most part both positive and respectful. <3

also for those that can't remember where it is, the block list is hidden in the friends tab here: https://subeta.net/friends.php?act=blocked

September 23, 2023, 10:36 am by

Anything changes here and the jerks come out of the woodwork. Jist because something isn't about you and you "don't get it" doesn't mean you can't afford some respect to the people who it did have a negative effect on. If it didn't bother you before, cool. You don't need to say that to try and minimize or devalue how good a seemingly small change can be. Not everyone is the same. Yes, some things are hurtful to some groups of people. Yes, changing our language as time progresses to accommodate and help people feel safe is a good thing. Some of you must never have been discriminated against and it shows. Ignorance isn't a cute look for you. I appreciate subeta making an effort to be inclusive. It's never a bad thing to learn and change our behavior. Some of you could take a lesson from staff and make any effort to learn something new without being an absolute turd about it.

September 23, 2023, 9:30 am by

thank you for this! <3

September 23, 2023, 9:27 am by

I feel this was well said and thank you for being here for me.

September 23, 2023, 9:15 am by

this is such a good change. makes me feel positive about the future of the site :) thank you so much for the work and thank you for the post!

September 23, 2023, 8:52 am by

I don't use to write on the news, but I want to celebrate Subeta giving a new step on the right direction again. Acknowledging the minorities and respecting their spaces is fundamental. 💜

And for those of you that feel that "Everyone is getting offended by everything now", you may want to read patiently the comments, the original thread, and all the reasons people had to raise their voice in favor of this change. Nobody is "o f f e n d e d", people like to be treated with love and respect. You may are not affected by the problem, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Inform yourself, listen to others, practice empathy. And, if after all that, you still think that treating people with respect and dignity is wrong, well... I'm sorry for you.

September 23, 2023, 8:40 am by

Thank you, Subeta!

September 23, 2023, 8:28 am by

I have DID and this is a HUGE, I MEAN ABSOLUTELY MASSIVELY cool move on y'alls part! I use this website to let my alters get a chance to express themselves through the wardrobe and this website has been a safe haven. That fact that you all care for people with 'scary' mental illness and... Just this is so amazing and kind and how everyone should respond when told their being offensive.

September 23, 2023, 8:18 am by

And I thought it would be better to separate this into a individual post. Any ideas for a forum signature? I don’t think it’s possible to take and change “Cursed___” to “Duality__”. Of course, technically this can be done. But if we consider the signature separately from the character's history, it has a particular unique meaning that is important to many players. Remind me how you could get this achievement? Do a total of 1000 of their quests? If so, then at the moment, the following option comes to my mind: make this signature as a reward (for example) for 500 general quests, and Duality for 1000. Because at first Mori and Nori thought it was their curse, but then they sorted themselves out and all that. It is just a though. Maybe someone (even staff) already figured how to make all that. Kinda reminds me a quote: Aziraphale: "Well, I'll be damned." Crowley: "It’s not that bad when you get used to it." (c.) Good Omens =)

September 23, 2023, 8:11 am by

Okay, in general, I kinda fine with all these changes. This site has always seemed very inclusive to me. But there are a couple of things that I can’t help but think: “am I really the only one with that? o_O”

It's a little strange for me to consider fictional magical creatures solely from a human point of view. And apply human laws to them, etc.
For some reason I didn’t consider Nori and Mori as one whole being o__O Perhaps I didn’t delve too deeply into it? (I'm generally not the most attentive person. For years I thought it was Marelia instead of Maleria xD). Don't know. Over the years that I have been on this site (almost 15 years), I have somehow passively formed a certain opinion or rather a feeling about them. That they are more like siamese twins, but not literally? Like it’s not that night comes, Nori falls asleep, Mori wakes up and goes to dye their hair and change clothes. No. More like that these are literally two different beings who are forced to share one vessel? And, of course, the change happens magically. And okay, if you think about it like that, I guess, it looks like a Dissociative Identity Disorder. But I thought that initially they were separate creatures, which, through magical manipulations, became conditionally one. Due to the fact that they constantly quarreled, fought, and perhaps almost destroyed the world a couple of times. After which Shinwa (or someone else. maybe Shinwa along with Maleria) joined forces and punished them in this way. Like, until they learn to live peacefully with eachother, they will not separate back + as long as they “appear” in the world one by one, they do not pose much danger to its well-being. Something like that.
Just in case, I would like to add (I came across something on this topic): I never thought that Nori was good and Mori was bad, because in my understanding, Light does not equal Good, just as Darkness does not equal Evil.
Well, since we are here sharing our experiences and mental characteristics... xD As a person with ADHD, high anxiety (and autism in question), who does not cope well with sudden changes in the picture of the world... This all stressed me out a little. About the same as, at one time, a very global change in the style of depicting characters. Something like: “ahh! help! They’re changing something here! O_O” So I don't mean that these are changes for the better or for the worse. It’s just that the very fact of any changes is a little “O__O!” and sometimes it takes time to adapt. p.s. Just in case: english is not my native language. Sorry if some of the sentences sound a little confusing and crooked ^^'

September 23, 2023, 8:10 am by

I never viewed Nori or Mori as negative. This world is very frustrating. Everyone is offended by everything both online and offline. I'm not whining about change, I simply never saw them as something negative.

September 23, 2023, 7:17 am by

This is the Subeta I know. It took you a while to get here, but you got here and that's what matters.

September 23, 2023, 7:07 am by

This is not the most important thing by far, but I do appreciate that the new name hasn't affected the alphabetical placement in the list of quests.

September 23, 2023, 6:47 am by

very glad for this change, and hopeful for better communication in the future - thank you amber and team

September 23, 2023, 6:32 am by

"Oh no, can't believe I'm expected to be nice and learn new things!"

Go find a safe space to whine with your fellow bigots in peace, if you can't be bothered to make the effort to act like a human being.

This is a great change for the folks who need it, and does not affect the folks who don't need it in any way whatsoever except by maybe teaching us something.

Also great to see the staff acknowledging, apologising for and explaining things they didn't handle as well as they could have. It's really respectful to the playerbase in a way very few games manage.

September 23, 2023, 6:19 am by

As someone who is a system/has some form of DID, this is amazing to see. Nori and Mori have been favorites of mine since I first joined (I'll admit, being a bit on the goth side, mori was a favorite especially.) Don't listen to the people complaining about the changes, keep up the good work!

September 23, 2023, 6:03 am by

Guess we gotta go burn all the doctor jekyll and hyde books now cause they're outdated in a world of increasingly labeled mental disorders. Every day we seem to have a new one pop up, along with another new gender or sexuality. I'm so confused with the world now that I can't keep up with anything anymore. Everything anyone can say now can offend someone in some way. Our daily social lives have become walking on eggshells. Everyone wants utopia, but if it comes with fear then it's not a paradise it's a prison

September 23, 2023, 5:51 am by

I don't think you did it wrong, in the sense of "tackle everything at once" yes, it took time but it is a better aproach than change one item today, another tomorrow, only the ones that pops up in user conversations, being pointed in each actualization "what about this, this and another item?" That breaks the work flow AND give a confusing results by having old lore items mixed with new lore items So, yes, do things right, even if it takes a bit more of time, for rushing incomplete stuff there is the rest of the internet actually

September 23, 2023, 5:05 am by

Thank you to subeta and everyone involved for making this change happen.

September 23, 2023, 4:32 am by

Thank you for your hard work and the effort in making this place as inclusive as possible!

September 23, 2023, 4:29 am by

Wow, I've never seen a post that made me instantly want to block a bunch of people on subeta of all places.

Thank you for the update and change, Staff. I hope to see plot better explaining their situation in the future.

September 23, 2023, 4:28 am by

Hiya! This is so incredibly wonderful. I have many friends who are plural, and I had to share this news with them (even though most of them aren’t Subetans, lol). As requested by [], I’d like to point out the following items that still reference the old lore:

Mori and Nori

[item2=Mori and Nori Trading Card] • Description refers to the old conflict between the two.

Mori

[item2=Mori Choker] • A bit vague, but implies that anything Mori-related = potentially evil. [item2=Mori Wings] • Maleria is no longer part of creating Mori. (Per the Subetapedia article, she was just a stop along the way for Mono Ri.) [item2=Mori Plushie] • Same vague distrustfulness as the Mori Choker. [item2=Mori Sticker] • Outdated lore reference.

Nori

[item2=Nori Head Ribbon] • Borderline. I feel like the “without hurting you” bit is meant to reference Nori’s previous pure-and-innocent schtick, but it works in a vacuum. [item2=Nori Plus-Fours] • Much like the Mori Wings, this is old lore, since Shinwa no longer had a hand in creating Nori. [item2=Nori Plushie] • o_o This description is…well, it’s very representative of the old Nori. Not that she isn’t still kindhearted, but…yeah. [item2=Nori Sticker] • Again, outdated lore reference.

Oh, one more thing! While searching, I found this absolute GEM of an item: [item2=Mori and Noris Campfire Tales] ↑↑↑ Now THIS is good. I dropped my jaw while reading this description; it is so subtle and makes it very clear that systems and other members of the plural community were involved here!

Overall, while I am not a system myself (and frequently find myself the token singlet, lmao), this filled me with such joy, and to see the change finally come to fruition is a great payoff. Kudos to everyone!

September 23, 2023, 4:07 am by

Everything is offensive on Subeta, this is why I barely play anymore. And before anyone jump at my throat I do have a severe mental disability but I still think this is weird. Staff is apologizing as they killed someone, ugh.

September 23, 2023, 4:06 am by

According to the revised DSM is referred to shortly, 'split personality' or 'multiple personality' are outdated terms for this disorder. However, many people around the world may not know about the change, which is fair since not everyone struggles with mental problems [umbrella term here]. Personally, i think that 'split personality disorder' is a decently fitting term for this disorder, though "multiple personality personality disorder' also makes lots of sense. However, these terms have been used in movies and TV shows, to display the disorder in a negative manner. That is quite offensive [just like saying all ____ people do XYZ which is something bad, illegal], and we all know that can't be true. there are _______ people that are good and hard working people that would never hurt a fly.

Not everyone would be offended by the term you use to refer to this disorder (my fiance is one of them). They will get upset (to put it lighly) if others would say the disorder is not real, that they're faking it. As a sidenote, there ARE folks who would fake having this disorder, but i'm not sure why. That is also offensive.

September 23, 2023, 3:57 am by

What a wild ride the comments were lol Congratulations for the update ♥

September 23, 2023, 3:40 am by

Nice!! I am super happy to see we’re getting away from that narrative with them. It’s always nice to see the staff taking accountability and dusting old cobwebs when necessary! Thank you for the transparency and the hard work!

September 23, 2023, 3:00 am by

Thank all of you for your work!

September 23, 2023, 2:11 am by

I've recently gotten to know persons with DID and it has honestly been a real struggle to try to get my head around it. Nothing I thought I knew about multiple personalities as a mental health condition were to date and it is a very rapidly evolving field.

But the important part I've learned is that you don't really need to "get" it. Just be nice and enjoy the company. Sounds like that's what the Subeta staff is trying to go for, too. Great.

September 23, 2023, 1:15 am by

oh, cool. rock on!

September 23, 2023, 1:08 am by

okay, i understand it better now, i appreciate you taking the time to help me understand better. i dont usually ready anything on here, it just sparked my interest for some reason. i can see where someone would maybe feel a little ill about it.
i do apologize unless things are dumbed down for me or made for me to understand better it dont normally click for me. :3

September 23, 2023, 1:02 am by

Prefacing this to say I don't personally have DID and this is just my interpretation of the linked thread + quote from etc. but the initial complaint that started things was that the term "split personality" used in the achievement name is outdated and offensive to folks with DID. Additionally, the "good vs. evil" elements and "Cursed by an Evil Goddess" backstory was not idael because it feeds into existing stigma that people with DID face, even if Mori and Nori weren't necessarily meant to represent DID. And if you look at the updated Subetapedia entry, the characters are still present but without those negative elements.

I would definitely recommend reading the thread if you have more questions because a bunch of users who do have DID weighed in there on what their issues were with the previous portrayal and/or wordings

September 23, 2023, 12:44 am by

okay im confused, so dont come at me here cause im just trying to understand better. so they had a split personality, and and they have been on here since the beginning, and because there is people with split personality disorders, they didnt like that the characters did? question would people relate more to them and like that there was a character they could relate to, i have anxiety and nervous issues while welding depression as a grown adult like many many others alike have aswell. im dyslexic with adhd/bi polar so im not perfect by any means ive got a whole ball game for chemicals unbalanced in my brain. im just not understanding why so many people didnt like the split idea. like i said im bipolar i got be split myself i personally just enjoy and love this site with all the character and charm it has. im not worried about the little things like that maybe thats just me, either way i was going to continue to use the site and enjoy it regardless of this change tht im just now finding out about. im promise im inoccent in writing this just trying understand thats all.

September 23, 2023, 12:29 am by

Thank you so much for being so open about everything and willing to realize what went wrong and how to improve it. You've been nothing but respectful and kind during this transition!

September 23, 2023, 12:26 am by

But how was Mori and Nori even negative at all? I saw them as being two sides of the same person, nothing bad at all. People are offended by everything.

September 23, 2023, 12:12 am by

i will admit i was being very blunt and abrasive about this on the brainstorm thread.

so i want to say thank you for making the changes, and for the accountability as well. this post makes me feel like people were actually heard more than the last post did.

i'm proud of everyone who fought for this without letting it be forgotten.

September 23, 2023, 12:09 am by

Really pleased to see how the staff are responding to the community and following the users' lead on updating their old content. Also, very impressed with the willingness to accept criticism, change approach to conflict, and apologize in the comments in real time! As someone with a public-facing job, I know from experience that it is very hard not to escalate a situation when someone comes in to an interaction frustrated, especially if they put you on the defensive. Kudos to Amber for accepting responsibility and doing everything in her power to correct the situation.

I'm also very happy to be learning new things! I'm glad to hear the perspectives of community members and learn updated terminology. (The preferred collective unit is a System? Love that) I'll be excited to read up on this tomorrow when I'm not so sleepy, lol.

September 22, 2023, 11:59 pm by

I'd also like to learn what's to happen to the "Cursed" forum title, like others. If you change the title, please let us have a different way to obtain the Cursed title for different reasons. I enjoy that title and would be sad to lose it.

September 22, 2023, 11:57 pm by

Do Mori and Nori still share a body, or are they separate beings that rise with their respective time of day? I read the new subetapedia post, and it's a little unclear on that point. I have no experience with DID, so I can't speak on it, so I'll just say that I was attached to Mono Ri's original story and was wondering to myself if she'd ever find freedom... and now she has, so I can feel relief that she lived happily ever after now, hehe.

Can we get a plot involving these guys someday? It'll help us get acquainted with their new story, I feel like.

September 22, 2023, 11:44 pm by

What a strange series of posts. I've seen actual criminals apologize less, and they were on the hook for jail time.

September 22, 2023, 11:21 pm by

I'm also wondering. Buuuut halloween/morostide is over there, so it would be a convenient time to give us a similarly named achievement, but making it unrelated to Nori and Mori.

September 22, 2023, 11:19 pm by

Thank you for this ❤️ my spouse has DID so this is really important to me.

September 22, 2023, 11:15 pm by

Thank you staff, for continuing to be truly inclusive and listening to users when issues like these come up. ❤

September 22, 2023, 11:14 pm by

I have OSDD and I locked onto Mori/Nori a couple weeks ago when I started playing and was just having a conversation IRL with a friend about how I was thrilled to have some semblance of representation that I actually really liked even if it was still problematic. Beyond my expectations you've taken the time to update outdated terms and take responsibility for it, I am so in love with your commitment to changing and creating a safe place for people and the transparency you've provided here. I wish you nothing but success in the future.

With love from all of us<3

September 22, 2023, 11:13 pm by

This site continues to impress me. :) The mindfulness, and inclusivity is amazing in a world that is getting scarier by the day. Thanks you Subeta staff, and for the explanation.

September 22, 2023, 11:03 pm by