As a linguist and lover of languages, this is the rule that I've had the most issue with during my time on Subeta. I thought I was pretty much alone in being bothered by it, but a recent post showed me that others find it problematic as well. Given that, I figured it's time to address this rule.

The rule as it currently stands states:

This may seem straightforward, but it is anything but, and it doesn't allow for nuance.

Problem 1: What exactly is not English?

English is a mutt of a language that borrows words from anyone and anything. Some of these are so accepted as the English word that it would be awkward to get around them. For example, can I only say I have light brown-colored trousers or can I use the much-used word that comes from Persian? How many words does it take to describe a policy of government non-interference if not using the accepted but very French-sounding term?

You may look at these words and think, Written, you're being hyperbolic. It's true I used words that are typically very accepted as being English these days, but there are two problems with this: first, how am I to know that the mods are aware of the "Englishness" of these words? Not everyone uses the same vocabulary, even those who speak the same language, and I don't want to risk getting in trouble for something that, really, I should not be getting in trouble for. Secondly, language is constantly evolving and as stated above, English is continually adding new words to its vocabulary that may have already been words in another language or dialect (more on dialect in a second). At what point are these words "English" enough to not break the English-only rule? How are mods supposed to make that determination?

And then there's dialects: English is not a monolith - it's more of a three-dimensional spectrum, and it's spoken differently all over the world. How will the mods know if a word I use is not "English" even if it is widely used by English-speakers in Scotland, Australia, India, Louisiana? It's like another facet of the vocabulary problem: mods do not know all the vocabulary of all the world (of which English has something like 400k words, last I checked), and they may not recognize a word as being "English" and unfairly discipline a user.

Problem 2: What about words that are clearly not English but everyone knows?

In daily speech, we English-speakers are comfortable with casual foreign language usage more than we may realize. (Or is that just me?) Can you say the French or Spanish words for hello? What about the Hawaiian one? How about the Italian word for goodbye? When you take a nap in the afternoon do you sometimes call it by a word that rhymes with another word for party? Do you like the melodic sound of the Mandarin phrase for "I love you" and like to throw it into a conversation - or maybe the Mandarin word for "thank you"?

These little phrases, mostly greetings, are ones that most people, even those who've never learned a foreign language, would easily recognize, but in truth they are not really "English" per se. Posting on the forums should be like a conversation, and being afraid to use certain words for fear of being warned - or worse, frozen - really makes it stilted and unfriendly. It's kind of analogous to Neopet's strict no swearing policy, which is what brought many people to Subeta in the first place. People do not like to feel stifled for arbitrary reasons.

Problem 3 (or 2b): What about the names of things?

The post that got me writing this one had someone post the Mandarin word for "China" to compare it with the name of Shengui Guo. Many of my pets have names that come from foreign languages. As a linguist, I would like to be able to talk about them more on the forums but I'm afraid to because I don't know when a word stops being my pet's name and starts being a non-English word that I've now used in a public Subetan place. It's a definite gray area, and I don't think it's clear to the mods or to users how to handle it. The result is that, again, it stifles conversation and in turn damages the community.

There's currently a suggestion that Subeta allow letters with accent marks and diacritics into pet names now that browsers and the system are better able to handle them. It's even been suggested that we could use non-Latin characters, such as Cyrillic. While Keith sounded optimistic about this, and it's something I very much want, this gives another nuance to this problem because if implemented, pet names would look even more non-English and therefore be even harder to talk about on the forums (or even in comments).

Part of this problem is that mods do not differentiate between demonstrative usage of non-English words and conversational usage. By "demonstrative" I mean that you're using it to explain something, for instance if I had used any of the words alluded to earlier in this post, or on the Shengui Guo post when people were trying to explain what the name of a Subetan land means, or on another post where I simply had Russian words within some coding that I posted asking for help. In all of these cases, these words aren't actually being used as intended but are being referred to to explain something else. I'm of the opinion that in such instances a lot more wiggle-room should be given even if Subeta wants to hardline the English-only rule. It is not the same as using the words in a conversation that is either wholly or in part in another language.

Problem 4: Users whose first language is not English

Subeta talks a big game sometimes about wanting to net more users, but by having this rule the way it is, it is not particularly friendly to people who don't speak English. I've seen users post for help in the forums who admit to using a translator to get their point across. Which is all well and good, and sometimes that's the only option, but what if they could post the problem in their own language and get a clearer idea of how to use the site? What if another user could answer in their own language? Making a site more accessible for users will also make it more appealing and get them to come back.

Solution 1: A subforum for other languages

I propose that Subeta creates a subforum where other languages can be used freely. It could even come with a warning sign if need be, stating that mods may not be able to spot issues right away, so if a user is having a problem they need to be sure to report it. Maybe each post or thread could have a sign that says which language is being used in it; that way, if Subeta wants a mod to do some casual monitoring, they can simply throw it into Google translate and see what's up. They don't really need to be nitpicking but looking for broader issues - it should be clear even in Google Translate if a conversation has been derailed or is full of vitriole. Again, users could report things that mods may not be able to pick up on. Let's say, for instance, that the word "persnickety" in Greek means something like the n-word in English. Maybe GT wouldn't catch that, but another user could, and they could report it to admin. It shouldn't be that difficult for admin to look up the word on the world wide web (sites such as Wiktionary and Reverso Context make this easier than ever before) to find out if what the user is reporting is true or not.

To ease into it, we could even implement a rule that the foreign language forum could only talk about Subetan things. That way there's less of a chance of things getting ugly as there would be when talking about RL things.

Solution 2: Clearer and easier application of the English-only rule

A foreign language forum may help quite a bit, but I think that we can still improve how we respond to words used in "English-only" areas. In most of these places, we should be able to use foreign words for demonstrative purposes or for casual greetings, as explained above. If mods are not familiar with a word like that, it would be a very simple thing to throw it into GT, and soon enough they should become very familiar with the more regularly used ones.

The Shoutbox should probably still be strict, because that goes much faster and would be much harder to moderate in realtime. In addition, pictures with foreign words on them should probably not be used, unless the user also provides the words typed out underneath (because it's much harder to copy and paste a picture, and typing in a foreign language presents problems). Besides these two things, however, it shouldn't be too difficult to allow words here and there that contribute to the conversation and do not present a problem for mods. This would require a rewording of the English-only rule to be more clear and explain what is allowable and what is not (but frankly, that should happen regardless of what is done about this rule).

What do you think?

tl;dr The English-only rule as it stands stifles conversations and is unfairly applied. It should be changed.

It was made to keep kids safe on here, with intentions of being no different than the word filter for adult language.

Don't @ me on this. This is all I'm saying.

I do know that when I have found a non-English speaking user, it takes a lot for me to hold back, and not try to help them in a way they could understand - in their native language. There are instances where I would like the rule to be a little different than it is.

I'm the one who got the warning for using Chinese characters to type out Shengui Guo's name (with translations, so it wasn't out of context or anything), and I'd just like weigh in.

I entirely understand the no foreign language rule. It makes moderation difficult, and this an English site, after all. However.

I would like if Shengui Guo, as well as any other lands, NPCs, and items to have their names allowed in their own languages. In the case of SGG, an official hanzi transliteration could be provided so that moderators know that the characters are the country. If you allow the name only in English but not in the actual language the name you took it from is in, it feels dangerously close to appropriation- you're only using the name for the aesthetic. If they can't allow that, then I'd rather the name be changed.

If you say that 'well the name is Subetan, it's not necessarily the same as the real world counterpart and maybe has no hanzi equivalent'- false. The lore very clearly states that it is named for a chelon, and 'gui' is very unambiguously the Chinese word for turtle. There is no doubt that Subeta has taken a Chinese word to use, and so it is completely unfair to disallow the word to be typed out in its traditional form.

[edit] I just think that, at the very least, some discretion should be allowed. If a user posts their entire message in a foreign language, sure, that is clearly an infraction. But if a user, on the shoutbox, says, 'Oh, my username is hua, it comes from the Chinese character [insert character], meaning flower', then I hardly think that's worthy of a warning.

you summed it up so perfectly! I agree with all your points. I wish I had anything to add but you pretty much said it all! :)

I think if Subeta officially uses a foreign word for an area, an NPC, an item name, item description, pet species, etc, then that word should automatically be considered "English."

When discussing pets, I feel that if you use the pet code, that shouldn't be penalized. Several of my pets do have French names, but I rarely discuss my pets by name, not really because of the foreign language rule, but mostly because I tend to discuss them in terms of their role - my main battler, my gourmand, my blob army, etc.

sMail is available to speak to users who have trouble in English. While I agree that's not ideal, it is a possible route.

The problem I have with the "think about the kids" argument is:

• Kids use foreign languages too. It is not analagous to adult language.
• Mods can protect kids and still moderate, as I mentioned in my original post.
• Let's be real: most people who use Subeta are adults, and all people who use this site are supposed to be 13 years old at a minimum. These are teenagers and adults.

There may be some legal stuff involved here that I'm not aware of, though, so I'd be interested in learning more about that when I get the chance.

thanks for that! I never thought about using sMail! I just figured it was off limits everywhere, but it is right there in the rule....neat! Feel kinda dopey for not going that route....LOL

I don't think full discussions in foreign languages should be allowed because I just don't see it being feasible to have moderators available who can speak every language other users might want to use. But I do think that the context matters, and a single word or phrase or character in a foreign language in the midst of an English discussion should be allowed.

I also think sending verbal warnings about the language rule is fine, but official warnings that are actually a mark against your account is a bit overkill, whether anything about the rule changes or not (It's not really my business what kinds of warnings went or go out, but just throwing it out there that I don't love the idea that people could potentially get official warnings because of a language barrier or just confusion or something)

yeah, the rule applies to public areas of the site. sMail has never been moderated, but a lot of people don't really think of it. One is also free to use foreign languages when writing to Oatmeal, since its not recorded anywhere or read by anyone.

Agree with Darkrai here, as someone who does translation work, Google Translate and DeepL can only do so much and can cause so much misunderstanding if you don't speak the language (esp context-heavy languages). A very live example of loose/machine-reliant translation activities are from V-Tubers (example of a big mess was Rushia crying over being "forced" to end her stream as she was "conflicting" the debut schedule of ENHolo but it was actually Rushia just feeling confused and frustrated about untold no-streaming-if-there's-debut rule). Any full discussions of foreign languages should be disallowed to prevent any loopholes with talking stuff against TOS, anything inappropriate or misunderstandings since I expect majority of the people here can't speak more than one language.

If both users prefer to talk in foreign language (like, fully) it should be on sMail! (If allowed?) examples or just one word to give context to something. (i.e. explaining my pet Uomi's name being Fish Sea + how to write it correctly in kanji) should be allowed at least! It has no malice nor any intent to exclude others.

cute avatar

As the person who suggested being allowed to use the Cyrillic alphabet for pet names, I support this potential change, it'd suck to give a pet a Russian name but then feel like I'd have to watch my back every time I talk about them

I agree with those who say monitoring full conversations would be difficult and therefore should probably not be allowed. I'm well aware that GT and the like are not perfect! :) Plus they would require more time on the part of mods to do research.

I still like the idea of having a foreign language forum as maybe a "wild country" with the understanding that it's less moderated. Maybe that's not feasible, but it would be nice in theory.

I also think, and it seems like most of you agree, that there should be a restructuring of the rule around the ability to use foreign language words in a English-dominated conversation.

Subeta has or has gotten a couple of rules I don't fully agree with over the years and the foreign language rule is one of them.

It's strange that Users in theory have to fear a warning if they, let's say, post a Hindi song title in "Which song are you listening to" while on the contrary we have this sticker:

[Item=Namaste Sticker]

I had to google the name of this sticker to understand its meaning, just like I would google a Hindi song title.

Sure, there are broadly known international words in the English language but who judges what's well known enough and what not?

Yeah, this, pretty much. Context matters a lot more - it's not a black and white issue.

My first language isn't English, but still, I don't think it's really feasible right now.

We barely have enough staff to moderate the site in English, I don't really believe that staff really should deal with foreign language policing as well. Yes, it sucks, but manpower shortage is very real - remember that the site is running on a skeleton crew right now.

Because, while the incident that spawned this topic happened on the forums, the real issue is with shoutbox moderation - moderation that has to be done in real time, and I think that the same rules that apply on the shoutbox should apply to the forums. Having to memorize two complete sets of rules sucks.

There shouldn't be a forum that's "less moderated" than others - because that would penalize people who can't use it. All forums should have the same level of moderation, that's common sense.

If staff can't moderate a foreign language properly, it shouldn't be a thing in the first place.

I think that the rule should be checked at by the user support crew, but yeah. Having a foreign language forum isn't the best of ideas right now.

I agree for the part of misunderstanding in a forum language and not everyone speaks the same language so no support for me

Just a question: under this rule, can I have a line in another language in a pet story? (I'd put a translation at the end, naturally.) And if that's allowed in a pet story, does this mean it can't be copied and posted to the forums?

i get why full discussion in foreign languages isn't allowed and don't really have a problem with that

but idk man, i don't think me putting 3 lines of poetry in italian on a pet profile warrants a warning (not something i've done but something i wanted to do before seeing how strict this rule is) ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

☝ sums up my thoughts tbh

I'm not going to be able to keep up with this thread this weekend like I wanted to, but I did want to respond to one thing real quick:

It is my understanding that foreign languages are allowed on pet and user profiles. You can see in the rule I quoted that they're not explicitly mentioned like other parts of the site are as being forbidden. I know I've had this confirmed in a way that was satisfactory to me, but I don't have anything to point to atm.

[Edit]I realized when rereading this that the second quote below actually does indeed confirm that foreign languages are allowed on pet profiles.

Which makes me think if I really want a foreign language forum, I can totally create a group for that purpose.

I also found in my tickets when I asked about creating a thread for available non-English rw names (back when that would be relevant to unique pet names). The answer I was given included the following:

The wording of that is troubling and again makes me wonder just how much I can talk about/mention my foreign-language-named pets on the forums.

This will probably be my last post for the weekend unless I get some unexpected free time, but I'm still interested in continuing the conversation (and also watching how it progresses without me). Indeed, there are things already said which I would like to address when I have the time to give them the attention they deserve. So if I've ignored something thus far, don't read too much into that. :)