Here is the thing about allowing conversation in foreign languages.

No matter how good AI translators are, I can easily use figures of speech, metaphors and slang to break at least six other Subeta rules in less than 250 words, and never get in trouble for it, because I can say that the translator didn't read my real intent, and that I absolutely wasn't planning to break the rule. That it's all about interpretation.

You can't rely on computers to know someone's true intent.

So, foreign conversations should not be allowed in public areas of the site, that rule is perfectly fine, and I don't think people are upset about foreign conversations not being allowed. I think that most people understand why that's a rule.

It's allowed in sMails, and I'm pretty sure it is allowed in private forum groups.

The problem is with a couple words being warning-worthy, and considering that some Subeta NPCs use more foreign language than what warned users used, that's the problem. That's what needs clarification.

I'm French, I'm used to not being able to having to use English when I communicate online. That's not the bother to me. The problem is with how the rule has been interpreted lately, which is a zero-tolerance policy.

Listen, zero-tolerance cannot be enforced by UAs. It's impossible to do so. It's discriminatory towards foreign-language users that might slip up, or don't know how to explain things in English!

What I, and most of the users here want, is more leeway concerning the usage of foreign language.

Definite support, at least for things like mentions of foreign language in posts, song names, etc. We can handle tidbits with no trouble. I'd hate to mention an artist or art piece that I like when the name is in another language (especially when it's stuff that doesn't translate well), only to be warned for it; that seems... expressly silly. Having entire subforums for specific languages/non-English discussion is a bit much due to how it would be difficult to moderate, I totally get that! But as said before, if we're going to be inclusive and have political posts, having conflict about tidbits of non-English language seems very ridiculous.

The whole "protecting the kiddies" thing falls kind of flat when there's official non-CW wearables on the site that are flat-out kink gear. At this point, I just see this site as 18+ because there's no other way to justify some of its content/what it allows otherwise. That's just my thought on that reasoning, though.

No support for this. One of the great features of Subeta is the unity and cooperation among the users. That includes a common language in order to communicate. Since we are (remember, guys?) in the USA, that common language is and should be English. End of story.

i've been wanting to say something on this topic, but couldn't figure out how to express it without sounding hostile. the whole thing leaves me feeling very frustrated.

but these are my general feelings on it, too. honestly this site feels very inconsistent in a lot of things. hell, i'm still salty about the debate subforum being removed. it all just feels very insulting to our intelligence and babying. we can have 13 year olds see those kink items, but not a discussion on political events? that one harlequin zombie skin isn't offensive, but a person speaking spanish could be, so it's not allowed?? i don't want to come across as an edgelord, but more and more i feel wary of voicing my opinions on things because i don't understand the tone of this website anymore... if a topic about allowing languages besides english is this controversial... i mean...

Like I said earlier, it's less of a matter of "children cannot see this" and more "they could use this loophole to evade other rules" like harassment, glitch abuse and targetting in plain sight.

I don't see why it got reduced to "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN???" because...it's not just profanity. Not everyone is honest.

Site moderation isn't just about keeping things PG-13.

Not going to lie this “using foreign language to break rules” excuse is a pretty convenient disguise for what appears to be a pretty blatant discrimination with this rule.

Especially when people elaborate on their intent with specific foreign words or phrases.

I.e “I’m not a native English speaker but we have this phrase in Korean (insert phrase here) which kind of means this, but I’m not entirely sure how to translate that.”

And we’re just gonna reprimand them for that? Yikes....

Communication actually becomes easier when people are given more ways to express themselves. Maybe the word they want to use doesn’t even exist in English!

Not going to lie this “using foreign language to break rules” excuse is a pretty convenient disguise for what appears to be a pretty blatant discrimination with this rule.

Especially when people elaborate on their intent with specific foreign words or phrases.

I.e “I’m not a native English speaker but we have this phrase in Korean (insert phrase here) which kind of means this, but I’m not entirely sure how to translate that.”

And we’re just gonna reprimand them for that? Yikes....

Reprimanding for a couple words goes against the spirit of the rule itself, and this is something that, in the short and long runs, can't be enforced by UAs. It's literally impossible to establish a zero-tolerance policy towards foreign language as a rule without contradicting other rules.

If warnings were given for a couple foreign words, they should be retracted - and hopefully the UA that did give these warnings get a stern talking to because that's an ugly precedent.

Again, full foreign language conversations are better suited to sMails, but a couple words - especially when you're explaining something? That's absolutely fair game.

This rule exists for one thing: the staff speaks english. They can't moderate words they don't know.

Now you might suggest they hire moderators for those languages they don't speak. This can get dangerous fast because they would have to trust someone's judgement for a situation they know very little to nothing about.

It's not about protecting kids nor discrimination. It's to keep people from breaking the rules. And yes, that happens a lot. Just check other games with international players; you'll see swears and slurs being thrown around frequently.

I've had a pet for almost a year with a foreign phrase name - however, it is the title of a well known song by a band from the UK. They speak English. The song has one verse that's in a foreign language, the rest is English. Am I even allowed to have that on the pet's profile? Or is it okay because that's a pet profile?

I started making an elaborate TC spelling out the lyrics with items. Is that okay because its items? Because its on a pet profile? Or is it worse because its spelled with items?

This rule is so confusing and so difficult to follow.

People might be overthinking this rule...

I'll say this: It's not about any random word. It's about certain words.

I feel some of the people posting here could use some context - this specific thread was created because a user received an official warning for posting (and translating) a couple of Chinese characters in a thread discussing the Chinese language in the context of Shengui Guo's name, and everyone else in that thread felt that this was incredible BS (especially given the xenophobic comments in the same thread that were completely ignored by staff).

Nobody is seriously talking about throwing open the forums to other languages that can't be moderated. Obviously we can't expect the mods to sit there using Google Translate for full conversations to make sure everything's okay.

Just that the existing rule should be modified slightly in the name of common freaking sense and people should stop getting warnings for crap reasons like the above.

The pet name digression is just people pointing out the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the rule.

I got my first official warning as a newbie because I had four Latin words in my signature and I'm still a little salty about it.

Thanks for the context

Knowing this now...maybe the staff hasn't changed it yet because they don't really know what to do about it? I'm giving them the benefit of doubt because...people don't like change and will resist it (even if it could lead to better things). I do agree they shouldn't give warning for small things, though.

I... I'm a poc who grew up with lots of poc. In fact my middle school to uni years MOST people are Hispanic, Asian, etc (for the Asian side lots of Trans, Parks, Nguyens, Chens, Huangs, etc etc). This is really long but I... I hope what I have to say gives you guys a better idea of why this rule should at least by slightly modified or we get more clarity!

all I gotta say is one of my friends was born in Malaysia and he went to Australia for university. He's a musician but he is also an artist at 27 years old. I feel like he'd adore the art on this site and YES he speaks English but...? I have another Malaysian friend who goes to Canada once a year for family and she's entering university. She is a very kind person so say she were to post memes in Mandarin because she speaks it. There's... not going to be any harm I would think? I agree with bringing up the issue, "hey it's okay for children to see the kink items," (this friend I've mine I've known since she was 15) but not... to make a few memes in Mandarin? Again, tidbits are what I mean generally.

To definitely add, one of my best friends can't display some lowkey Tagalog? My other good friend who knows some Greek and lives in Canada also can't say a few memes in Greek? We have a mutual Korean friend who was born in South Korea and lived there as a child can't make some small posts with Korean in them? I think we have to remember that not everyone on this site is in the US because while most of my friends are in North America, the rest are very far away. I... really wish I could invite my friends here to Subeta but you see. The first friend would just lurk bc he loves art, the second would at some point accidentally meme in Mandarin because she does it on Discord. My best friend used to be a huge Neopets person and dislikes CW drama apparently etc etc. This rule wouldn't just help my friends be active on here; I feel like it's good potential for every country out there that doesn't primarily speak English! We potentially could get friends of friends on here :D

It'd be cool to have it just be oh absolutely everyone can use any language as long as it doesn't break the rules but... I don't think there's a HUGE amount of staff and unless say we hit 8,000 people in one day iunno. Ideally, it would be really cool but at this time we can't have the best option. 😔 However I honestly just want more clarity on this rule for sure that will benefit everyone so this site can be united together. It would be THE BEST if everyone is chill together for upcoming events because October November Dec... the year end holidays are coming so it'd be cool to just have everything be more peaceful and all 👍

Ιf the stated purpose is to "ensure that the site remains safe and appropriate at all times," how does the recent enforcement in the Shengui Guo thread serve that purpose? The censored posts were neither unsafe nor inappropriate.

Аnd that's a problem: giving a stated justification for a rule, but then enforcing that rule in an imperious way that doesn't comport with that justification, undermines the justification. The staff actions taken in the Shengui Guo thread didn't help to make the forums more "safe and appropriate" -- instead, they created an obstacle to meaningful and educational discussion. I was learning a little bit about the Chinese language until the moderators started removing every Chinese character they could find and shut down the thread.

І think the foreign language rule itself is unnecessary, but I think a more serious problem is the unwillingness of the moderating staff to use the "safe and appropriate" intent of the rule to guide their moderation. It would be trivial to write a script to filter out character codes in forums outside of an approved Unicode range -- you were hired as moderators presumably because you could exercise wiser judgement than a script. Why do you treat this rule as one that's not subject to wise judgement?

yeah... to add more on my part, osterizer is right. I DO think that some mods were just trying to also abide the rules and do their job, because they don't have the permission to modify or change the rule. I think some are innocent, some are neutral, but... whoever made the rule either just did it because at the time it was needed in some way, or they... just didn't realize how terrible this rule is in practice.

Again, if children are allowed to see items, posts, etc on the nsfw side, why not other languages aside from English? Don't see the harm in any language using different characters in-text ESPECIALLY if they are tidbits

I am very much hoping that the mods with permissions to modify or change the rule are discussing or brainstorming bc... this is kind of a big deal

I wholeheartedly support finding a method through which non-english speech can be allowed on the site for ESL users and for the rules to be less blindly enforced devoid of context.

I think the context of the discussion should be taken into account when enforcing this rule. It makes no sense that people got warnings because they were explaining the name of a region in Subeta that has a Chinese name. It also makes no sense that not a single mod in that thread addressed the xenophobia in that thread. If the mods are going to warn people about using foreign languages and delete their posts the least they could do is address the xenophobia too.

I see both sides of this issue. Contextually, I think that the warnings given for the thread about Shengui Guo were unnecessary. And historically, I don't think that generally the English-only rule has been enforced for singular words or even common phrases that people use in English (e.g. c'est la vie). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I suppose my biggest concern is, how are a bunch of English-speaking volunteers supposed to fairly moderate conversations in other languages that they don't understand? There could be abuse happening that online translators don't pick up on. Or, what if it's a complicated interaction between users where nobody's truly in the right or wrong, but it's just a heated discussion? Should we expect unpaid mods to do the extra research about potential slang/insults in other languages, or is that beyond the scope of someone who's working as a volunteer?

Other users have brought up the Shoutbox, which frankly could be the most concerning place. If someone's posting abuse or glitch abuses in another language, or having an inappropriate conversation for Subeta's community guidelines, I don't know how a mod could catch that in time to dole out justified warnings.

I understand and appreciate the spirit behind allowing languages other than English on the forums and shoutbox. I agree that the English-only rule will fundamentally other users who do not read English, and does make it harder for those users to find a community or help here. I just don't know how other languages could be fairly and consistently moderated. Certain languages--largely ones from Europe--also have more robust translators available compared to languages from other parts of the world, so users speaking French or German might be able to have conversations that are more fairly moderated than, say, one of the 23 constitutionally-recognized languages of India. That's another element to keep in mind, too.

I dunno if mods would be able to/want to provide some input, but I'm curious about what they have to say about how a rule change would affect their ability to moderate.

In my eyes- you're right; back when I was a minimod/UA, it wouldn't have crossed my mind to send a ticket, or to warn someone for a couple words in not-English. That's just common sense; some of the userbase isn't fluent and they're gonna use words in their own language out of ignorance. That's not warning-worthy.

Warning for every not-English word really goes against the spirit of the rule.