So. Yeah. That happened. The news comments doth spoil over, but news comments aren't the best place to offer feedback and discussion, I think.

On one hand, I think it's interesting to completely revamp a holiday. Doing that allows you to shift to new themes, and with that, new items; I can definitely understand the notion that you can only make so many Oktoberfest items, even if there's probably a lot of venues unexplored in that vein. Making it into an "alternative food/lifestyle festival" is an unexpected but not necessarily weird approach, even if it seems to have come out of left field compared to what we had before. That adds a whole lot of potential for new themes and items, and hopefully it'll branch beyond just the current theme.

On the other hand... I just hope that staff knew what they were doing when they made it vegan-themed.

It's a can of worms being unscrewed right there. I have a lot of intense feelings about the items that imply "vegan/vegetarianism = anti-animal cruelty!", because I eat meat of all kinds but don't take kindly to the idea of my diet making me care less/actively cause harm to animals. I don't mind the assorted "vegan pride!" and vegan options and whatnot, those can stay and are fun, interesting items-- but when you start casting a shadow on anyone that eats meat, regardless of their personal philosophies and food-related decisions, then it starts getting a little bit rude. And, of course, it's just the fact that the topic attracts a lot of discussion that can easily turn into heated arguments, let's be real. I'll argue until the cows come home when it comes to this topic, I'm incredibly passionate about animal welfare and the environment.

So. Uh. Post your thoughts here I guess?? Discuss? It's the feedback forum and not the debate forum, though, so. ¯(ツ)/¯

edit: also because that happened, please don't compare veganism/vegetarianism to being LGBT in this thread. that's seriously not cool.

man same ;;

i used to be vegan and it was fun!! i learned how to cook a lot of good stuff!! but the "if you eat meat you hate animals" mentality is so toxic and i hate it so much u __ u thankfully none of the items really gave me that vibe though, at most was a bit nghhh but i feel like it can also make sense in a non-vegan context i suppose? so that's nice!

as far as the actual revamping of alergarten goes though i love it!! :' D i think it's a really fun and creative idea! and i think the implementation was good too c:

celebrating veganism = 👍 demonising meat eaters = 👎

[edit] oh i only just saw and i...... don't like this at all D: the description is adorable, but animals can be both friends and food :<

I'll put in my two cents. I am a meat eater, always have been and always will be.

You choose to be vegetarian? Great! You choose to be vegan? Great too!

But then suddenly I am made to feel bad because I eat meat? 'Stop cruelty to animals, go vegan'? No, not cool at all. I always thought Subeta promoted treating everyone on here equally, promoted being respectful, tried to encompass all ways of living, all lifestyles, all choices. I am very disappointed to see one group being targeted for their dietary preferences. There is absolutely nothing wrong with supporting vegetarians/vegans in their food choices, but totally insulting meat-eaters is really, really not okay.

- you say it all much better, and far more eloquently than I can manage :)

I think celebrating veganism is great, and you guys have said everything pretty well already.

Personally, I would have preferred to have Alegarten to have been rebranded to more of a Renaissance/medieval fair sort of thing. I kind of understand staff’s thing about October fest only having so much to play off of, but I don’t think this switch was the best fit. I’d have preferred for the “alternative foods/diet” to have been included in Peak-Boo perhaps? I’m just sad to lose the vibe alegarten had :<

But what’s done is done, right

I thought it was supposed to be a bit tongue in cheek. & I say this as someone who isn't vegan and eats meat, so I could be easily missing a greater cultural .... fight.

That's what I'm kind of sad about. I liked the cool craft brewery Octoberfest kind of vibe.

Oh, i just posted a massive, polite news comment, i'll just put it here as well lmao:

Like i get it, most vegans are vegan because they love animals and/or they believe it's the way to save the environment, that's totally understandable. I just disagree fundamentally, and i think these items/the rebranding of alegarten is contributing to downright dangerous pseudo-scientific ideas, and painting veganism as a perfect solution for environmental and animal welfare reasons, when it's really not that simple. Like i don't care if you don't want to eat animals, that's absolutely fine, i too enjoy vegetables, every day. What i'm against is this soap-box of glossing over any negative aspects of veganism and touting "cruelty-free" when none of us can live truly cruelty-free. Just because you don't have animals on your plate, doesn't mean animals didn't die for your food, your clothes, your makeup, your tech, etc.

Like, Manwar's , plant based honey alternative, perfect, no stealing from animals, right? But when you look into it further, the current increase in harvest of agave nectar is removing that source from the highly specialized endangered bat species that eat that nectar. Those bat species are pollinators and actually fill almost the same niche as honeybees, and the decline of them has knock-on effects on every other animal in their eco-system. Agave is (probably) fine when a small minority is eating it, but you can even find it in health stores in my country, across the entire world from where agave grows. Not only are they harvesting way too much agave to sate consumers' needs, they are transporting those goods over massive distances, which is another problem for the environment. And lets not even get into the incredible amount of water needed to produce , when we are facing droughts. is another, the nuts are frequently harvested and shelled by child labourers in unregulated plantations. Cashew nut shells cause contact dermatitis and potentially permanent hand damage, even possible amputations, after prolonged exposure. It's not by any means a cruelty-free alternative to dairy, and i don't trust a single cashew unless it's traceable every step of the way and proven to not exploit child labourers. And it sucks because i really love cashews.

Which brings me to another point: i live in a country with mostly mountains and poor soil. In most areas here, it's more effective to let sheep and goats graze on the wild grasses and leave their poop to fertilize it, than to bring in artificial fertilizers and monoculture the mountainsides to will kale to grow, thereby increasing runoff of fertilizers and contributing to soil depletion and erosion, and contributing to eutrophication of lakes and fjords. It would also require killing mass amount of animals that lived in the area and tried to eat the crops, and even accidental deaths when harvesting. Like most fruits we have to import because it's cold and barren here. Historically, our diet is heavily meat, game, fish, and whale based, because that's what's been sustainable and possible in this area. And it's not like we're an outlier, most of human society has relied on animal sources of food. Just because we now have the science to force plants to grow doesn't make it a sustainable or environmentally friendly method, when there's so much we need to do to make those plants grow. And a sheep or a deer grows itself.

There's also the petroleum issue. Synthetic fibres like acrylic, polyester, fleece, and nylon are mostly made from petroleum, a fossil fuel, and are known to shed non-biodegradable micro-fibres constantly. If you remember the micro-granule stuff in soaps a few years ago, synthetic fibres are currently doing the exact same. This is an area most people, vegans and non-vegans, don't know about, but it's a huge problem; plankton eat the fibres, fish eat the plankton, fish starve to death because they get impacted and feel full from the acrylic fibres. Simplified. Synthetic fibres also do not break down if you stop caring for them, not for potentially centuries, unlike animal hide. The production of these synthetic fibres can also be extremely toxic for the people making them. I don't know enough about plant-based fibres to comment one way or another, but i suspect there are similar concerns with some types of them as with the other points, ie. some of them take an inordinate amount of resources to produce when you could just let a sheep out to graze for itself, and shear it in spring.

I will say that i'm very glad there's no quinoa added in this batch nor on the site at all, as that is the poster-child of fad diet ignorance. As an aside, there is so much more to bavarian cuisine than just sausages and beer! You could expand it to all of germany/surrounding countries and have a ton more potential already.

I really wish this event was more about sustainable, farmers markets, nature, good food choices, cleaner diets, etc etc instead of just veganism. If this was about cleaner eating, cleaner living, and shedding light on the growing number of dietary restrictions in our current era it wouldn't have felt so "vegans verses the world".

Like, yeah factory farms and fisheries are absolutely a massive problem regarding both the animals welfare but also what eating that meat does to the body (both human and our companion animals) and the environment. Instead of just damning it all, shedding light on grass fed, humanly raised, and organic it maybe would educate some people. I understand Gunter is vegan, which is great, but if nothing else Oatmeal is a grain consuming animal. Dogs, cats, fish, spiders, reptiles, and hell even birds love a good bug-- these animals by nature eat other animals. It feeds the growing number of people who force veganism on carnivorous companion animals and that bothers me a lot. Just a "Hey if this lifestyle doesn't work for you that's okay! But maybe consider switching to humanly sourced meats, here's some pamphlets! Let's make the world a better place for all".

Not to mention a lot of the vegan alternatives alienate others. My coworkers step son is deathly allergic to nuts. A lot of these milks would kill him. My Boss actually can't eat vegetables that aren't fully cooked. If they have any crunch, they make her sick, so I couldn't imagine her trying this lifestyle.

God and soy. Soooy. One of the major GMO plants in America, along with corn, that are so mass produced and have so much pesticides dumped on them they're not only killing bees but the run off from the Midwest states seeps into rivers that feed into the Gulf of Mexico and cause an ever growing deadzone each year. This kills so much aquatic wildlife it's unbelievable. Google it, Gulf of Mexico Deadzone, be sad.

Tl;dr I know this is the first year of the new change but I really hope in years to come this evolves more into am educational event that explores the agricultural world we live in, the bad shape it's in, and tries to educate more than giving the vibe of condemning others for not being vegan.

Also I hope one year there's a mini plot that involves us breaking into a pet testing facility and fighting mutated pets and evil men in lab coats to save the poor pets.

I feel that meat eaters are being bashed by this, especially the items. I certainly don't like that , it's really wrong. It's making me wonder who is behind these items, and this event in general. I kinda feel like that particular item is some vegan's personal attack against ppl who eat meat. Because I seriously don't think a non vegan came up with that. The other items are okay I guess, but any item which blatantly disrespects a group of people has got to go. You wouldn't have a shirt item which says something like (as an example) 'ban the burka' or anything else that is directly targeting a group of individuals. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that someone has slipped their own personal agenda into this event? Like, why even do this? They knew it would create controvesy. Also, this item right here: Go vegan or go home? Yeah, definitely a vegan's personal dig at non vegans. I'm calling it for what it is. Pure discrimination.

I'm a meat eater and I didn't see this change as something against me or made me feel bad.. I actually really love this change, it's fresh and interesting.

First of all, I don't take Subeta too seriously, it's a game at the end.

Second, Subeta is a mirror of life and doing attribute to everything, so even for Veganism and Vegetarianism and it includes the "don't eat meat!!" side of this, I don't think Subeta should hide it from anyone, it exist and it exists even here and if it's offending you in some kind of way, just don't buy the item/participate/learn to live with those item somehow..

Third, I don't think Subeta needs to exclude vegans and vegetarians from the site or from the lure, they also have a voice and should be heard even here.

So my conclusion, I'm very happy to see another side of Subeta and I hope this holiday will be a new tradition!

Man, I was cringing when it was announced Alegarten was going vegan. I don't care what someone eats, as long as it's cruelty free, eco-friendly, or not an endangered species. However, when ever this is brought up, there's always the bashing. No side is better than the other. All you do is push one side to hate the other side. (Dude, 's tl;dr, yes please.) By all means though, it's okay to include vegetarians and vegans, just please don't bring in the "bashing" or "better than you" things.

With that, I'm just going to buy the foods to stuff down my pet's throat in anticipation of any achievements.

This and the eco-friendly packaged foods already out imply that Subeta has a problem with factory farms and pollution from agriculture. Our fantasy petsite world has the same problems as ours...

I have some opinions with regards to environmentalism as an individual choice vs a system-wide adoption of better practices but...

I thought about this holiday being Gunter getting his buddies together to make vegan merch that mirrors the real world, so I didn't take it personally.

As someone currently studying plastic waste in the marine environment, I totally agree with .

I think the holiday would have come across better if it had been themed as a sustainablity festival. Metal straws and everything. :P

Maybe the Subeta staff should consider having focus groups, or people they bounce ideas off that aren't staff? idk how these decisions get made.

I'm not gonna touch the vegan-other diets dispute with a ten-foot-pole, others already pointed out what's wrong with that.

Alegarten never was the most eventful event, but at least it had really nice wearables. Supposedly, the move to summer was to relieve the artists in the most busy time on subeta, but also to be able to make Alegarten even better. And so, last year we got zilch, this year... the tshirts are more than disappointing. And food - if someone doesn't have gourmand pet/pets with food TC, there's really nothing to do for them during the event.

There were pretty great ideas about expanding/changing Alegarten in the news comment section and I'd love to see some of it happening. Cause if it's gonna be like now, then maybe let's scratch it altogether, have artists get a proper break and avoid going militant about what we eat at each other.

I like the idea of metal straws, and eco friendly bags, as well as other things like clothing, etc. In regards to the focus groups idea, that is also a good idea. Also, they should be getting ideas from a general amount of people, and not just a minority group or a single person, because with that, they're only going to take their own beliefs into consideration like they've obviously done with this event. We need people who aren't as blatantly biased, and will think about all of the people on the site. Maybe they could do a site-wide poll which would be anonymous, to get a general idea of what people would like? Maybe even a poll when the event finishes.

I like the vegan theme, there was nothing like this on Subeta before. I see no problem with the t-shirt, i'd wear that There are many vegans (and im just transitioning) who look for cruelty free products (clothes etc) and are dedicated to this lifestyle. A cruelty free world is possible, if enough people put in the effort

tbh its a game site so i dont take things to heart, for me its just not worth getting upset about. Even if i was on the other side of things i'd still feel the same way

I also agree it would have been nice if the holiday was branched out in other ways like suggested above

I do find it a little strange that we've ended up with a site event which is just vegan stuff. Not even vegan and vegetarian (I similarly find it a bit strange that we have three vegan NPCs and no vegetarians, even though in reality the latter is much more commonplace). I agree with the other suggestions that it could have been about broader dietary/lifestyle themes (and the numerous reasons why people adopt them) with extra sustainability/eco-friendly aspects. We could have had clothing made from different fibres or recycled material or upcycled stuff, rather than generic T-shirts. Something altogether more inclusive and community minded. Instead we get "Go Vegan or Go Home".

Is this an annual event now? Are we just going to have another round of only vegan stuff every summer? Because we can have vegan stuff any time. It's not much to look forward to.

[edit]i wasted my time u.u like always

LOL, I don't know what rock some people on here have been living under but this is a can of worms I'd rather not partake in so excuse me while I don't. Petsite or not.

oh no sorry i didn't mean i felt i was being attacked! i was just saying that in general it's very much possible to celebrate veganism without throwing shade on meat eaters. i actually do like the vegan theme, i just think it could have been done a bit better c:

anyway please don't compare a lifestyle people choose to a sexuality people are born as (which is actually criminalised and persecuted in certain parts of the world). it's very disrespectful

w o w

Please think before you speak. Comparing veganism (a lifestyle choice that works for some people and doesn't work for others and that's okay) to being gay (NOT a choice, that results in death and persecution and shame and fear for people who have done NOTHING but just be who they are) is tactless and disgusting.