I'm really interested in seeing whether Gunter's fear is tied to that event as well.

That's a very mature way to handle this situation.

Agave Syrup being used as a sweetener is a fairly recent fad - the main use of Agave is fermentation for the production of Tequila. It has been an issue for a long while, but it only got worse with Agave Syrup being commercialized as a sweetener.

Again, I'm totally fine with the item existing, but I still would rather have it as a restockable in Liz's shop.

Note - There are other health foods that are a problem, but my other pet peeve isn't in the event (It's quinoa - people importing quinoa from South America are contributing to quinoa price inflation, meaning locals cannot afford it as easily. Buy local quinoa, people!)

It reminds me of the time people tried to advocate the use of those light bulbs that looked like they fused with a screw. Everyone was ecstatic about saving the environment by using these lightbulbs until they found the light bulbs contained chemicals that could not only harm the environment but also human health.

And why do people import stuff if they can buy it in their own backyard???? Makes no sense to me.

Thank you for the background info. And, omg, Gunter is a vegan and his brother eats humans? But, Anne seems to have forgiven Gunter, so there must be more to the story, as you said. Fingers crossed we learn more this week!

I’m off to buy three of every food item. And more feedback (or maybe a suggestion?) can the milks and other appropriate items be added to the options for Fantine’s baking thing?

South American Quinoa is cheaper than Canadian Quinoa, from what I remember. So, a lot of people buy imported quinoa because it's imported in large quantities, and is lighter on the wallet.

I am pretty sure Anne doesn't know Gunter murdered her father. She knows he drowned, but she probably think it was an accident.

WE KNOW IT WAS NOT, THOUGH.

I'm really glad for the inclusion of vegans when we already have TONS of meat all over the site (we even have foods catering to those of the... uh, undead variety!) but I personally think 5the start-of-the-holiday items should have been mixed up between meat-eaters, vegans, and also vegetarians because I know there's a pretty big difference~

What really saddens me is the backlash. There were better ways to point out how the items came across and to explain the feeling of disappointment/anger about the overhaul of the holiday. I know people are upset but it's a matter of civil communication because I wouldn't think the staff would ignore people who present their opinions with respect. I believe in the staff, that the intentions were meant to be good, but it wasn't done in the right way. People have mentioned building on German traditions in general, fantasy-esque themes/items, farmer's markets, and the idea of dedicating the holiday to various alternatives/healthier foods/methods and such that are better on the environment. I think all of those could easily be combined to rebuild this holiday into something people could look forward to and have interest in. The old version and the new version both are lackluster to most users from what I've seen. The artists did a good job and I appreciate their efforts a lot. As pointed out though, there was only so much they could do with the old version of the holiday. The problem with the new version... is it's going to just repeat that same monotony each year. You can only do so much with vegan-related content too. And there's no cultural style to inspire clothing like there was with the old version.

I'm hoping that staff will consider maybe updating the holiday again to expand it into a concept that will continue to be exciting through Subeta's years! An all meat, all vegan, or even a mixed holiday just doesn't seem like a feasible thing to be doig every year, again and again. You'll have to overhaul it again sooner or later or even cancel it.

That's just my thoughts for the holiday itself. I won't even touch down on the politics and the news comments in general because... that was a roller coaster I am not riding again.

BUT thank you to everyone who provided information with reliable sources about the various foods/alternatives! You guys are the real MVP's for trying to educate without attacking others. Some people just don't know so there's always a chance to teach someone something new!!

I don't like vegan/vegetarian foods, but I'm not eating it my gourmand is, so I'm fine. LOL I don't care for poop food either, but still fed it all to my gourmand! (and no, I'm NOT comparing those two types of foods, just saying there's lots of foods onsite I don't like).

I didn't feel particularly attacked by the theme, but can certainly see why others felt that way.

But I have to say I'm very disappointed by the lack of clothing. Sure I already have 24K items in my wardrobe, but I can never have enough (except t-shirts, we have too many of those)! More books would have been nice too - recipe books anyone?

I'll just go ahead and quote what I said in the news post comments:

I don't have a problem with the theme of the event itself (though I can see how a couple of the items that have been noted here and in the news post can be taken as a passive-aggressive jab at people who eat meat), but I can't say I'm a fan of how far removed it is from the original Alegarten, especially in regards to the wearables. Slogan t-shirts feel like a significant step down from the traditional wear we used to get, in large part because they barely feel like event wearables - while the art for them is nice, conceptually they feel generic to the point it's hard to see why they couldn't just have been regular restockables instead, at least for me.

Aside from what I wrote in my news comment, I'd like to add that I like the idea of a renaissance fair alternative to Alegarten that's been brought up - it's still different from the original brewery/Oktoberfest theme, but it keeps the visual theme the event (especially the wearables), which otherwise doesn't really have a substitute. In my opinion, it'd also work as an extension of the German-influenced theme, since renaissance fairs are also held in Germany (though they're known by the term Mittelalterfest there), so it wouldn't be too far removed.

I'd also like to second the concerns raised about the Agave Syrup item here. As outlined with the quotes in their news comment, beekeeping isn't harmful to bees, but helpful - an alternative for it isn't necessary, and agave syrup in particular does significantly more harm than good due to the amount of waste created in its production. It might not be directly harmful to animals like certain types of farm setups, but it does a lot of environmental harm that still ends up hurting both the planet and the life on it; I agree that it doesn't feel like it fits the spirit of Neugarten (which seems to be intended to garner interest in the vegan lifestyle and vegan food alternatives because they're generally more humane to animals), and I'd even go as far as to argue that its production does enough harm that it shouldn't be promoted at all in an event like this.

Ah, ok, well she’s in for a nasty shock then. (There’s a quinoa farm in my hood! They sell most of their quinoa to Lundberg Farms, but they do sell at our farmers market :))

I'm unsure about that since these items are only available during Neugarten. I doubt people want to spend over 100K on a baking ingredient.

Why did people think beekeeping was harmful to the bees? Bee movie or something?

That’s a good point. I wasn’t thinking as sole options, though, but the nut milks in the milk drop down, for example. But maybe they only have items there that restock in the main shops. I’m a new baker, so haven’t gotten very far.

I think it’s actually a vegan specific thing. The presumption is that bees are enslaved and exploited, their honey stolen by the beekeeper in a harmful, one-sided relationship. Therefore it’s seens as a product of animal cruelty and unethical to consume, and some claim it is unhealthy to eat.

I haven't seen anyone here explicitly mention that they think beekeeping is harmful to bees, but I did see someone in the news post comments say that they've been told by vegan activists that beekeepers burn the hives when they're done with them, and I've seen that sentiment in a few other places discussing beekeeping and honey alternatives before.

As far as I'm aware, while beekeepers do sometimes burn hives (or more specifically, smoke them out), this is never done simply because they're "done" with a hive. Hives are generally only forcibly destroyed if they've become infected with something, for example American foulbrood or a wax moth infestation, and it's done to prevent the illness or infestation from spreading to other hives (which would lead to far more casualties than only destroying the affected hive). That's probably where that misconception came from - people hearing about beekeepers destroying infected hives, missing the "infected" part, and thinking they only do so because they're done working with that hive rather than as an attempt to keep an illness or infestation from getting out of hand and infecting other hives.

Edit: - Yeah, I think that's a big part of it, too. There's a lot of misconceptions about what beekeepers actually do in certain circles, and that leads to those people coming to the wrong conclusion when, say, they hear about beekeepers having to destroy their hives because they've been hit by American foulbrood. It's a dangerous claim to spread, since beekeeping is generally a mutually beneficial relationship (as beekeepers help to combat overproduction that forces bees to change hives - and likely die in the process - among other things like helping to provide them enough food, combatting parasites, or helping with hive maintenance during the winter months to aid their survival), not a one-sided one that's harmful for the bees themselves.

just my two cents, but i also agree with a lot of what has been said here. i feel like this holiday is rather pointless now? a lot of the items could have been added to main shops and it's weird to me that there's like .. two different areas? there's still the old alegarten shops but then all these 'neugarten' shops with other npcs. overall, it just seems very pandering and tokenistic almost with little to no thought gone into it at all.

this is perhaps a radical thought, but i'd rather see this holiday removed entirely. that way, other bigger events like vesnali, masq and morostide can be better spaced out and for longer durations. vesnali is one of my favourite holidays and it only lasted a week, but then this gets at least two? there's so many holidays crammed into the beginning and end of the year, it would make sense to better space them out by removing something like this, where all the items could easily be released and transferred to main shops (or just make a new main shop for this specifically?).

i'm all for a world free of animal cruelty and i'll admit that some of the items do look really good. but again, just don't feel it's necessary to have a whole 'holiday' dedicated to it. or i'd rather see what other people have suggested, and have something that incorporates different diets, even more emphasis on different cultural cuisines. like a celebration of all types of food, regardless of where you come from or your choice in diet.

I never knew I needed this in my life so badly. I kind of love drunk filters.

[edit] I would also like to add on about the event format - Alegarten was kind or boring in that once you buy everything you need, what is there left to do? Neugarten isn't changing or shaking anything up aside from stirring up the drama. Once you buy everything you need, again, what else are you going to do? At least Keelhauliday has the benefit of competition to keep things interesting.

Provided that everything from the shops can be moved elsewhere, I wouldn't care all that much if it was just gone, especially if it's not going to be all that interactive or interesting. I like the idea of extending the duration of other holidays to fill up some space.

I don't feel as strongly as other people do about this holiday, but in general I do feel like I'm being.. meat-shamed. I'm very pro-sustainaility and already feel bad about my meat consumption, but I'm working on reducing it.

The holiday comes across a bit too much like "BE VEGAN. PREVENT ANIMAL CRUELTY".

As I previously mentioned, a more general holiday(/festival) about making more sustainable choices would have been better.

What the shit happened here, bruh.

I'mma just throw in that I hope next year mixes the old with the new. I like that this year focused on the new more because the artists could put more effort on some items we needed. While I will throw some shade at a few of the items, I ain't going off because I know the artists and staff didn't mean what was implied. Next year I hope it's mixed for a few reasons. First this will get just as old as the old Alegarten real fast (which is why it was changed from Oktoberfest to this). Secondly it's more inclusive and broad (which the old one lacked too !). Third because I already miss the old one like some others.

The artwork is amazing, by the way. Some of the items (FOOD) made me so happy. And hungry. So hungry. I want that berry cheese so badly give it to me right now. And the coffees. NOW.

Also I'm going to throw in that no one chooses to be queer in any way shape or form and anyone that thinks that needs to read up and quit spreading that obvious hate you've got festering in there that only hurts people.

ANNE DESERVES THE TRUTH!

I'm not going to get into too much of the other aspects

I just find Gunter's change deeply ironic when he still murdered his brother for the brewery, like. Gunter my man you need to face some kind of justice, for Bubble's sake, and Anne deserves to know the truth.

Food looks absolutely lovely though, even if I personally, am allergic to chickpeas so anything in it makes breathing a wee bit difficult. My pets don't suffer from that, tho.

I saw this post by someone in the news, and wow am I glad I did, because it was extremely informative

I pointed out my issues with Agave and Quinoa earlier, and a lot of people who are more experienced than me with bees have pointed out things about how beneficial beekeeping actually is, but oh boy am I learning things.

I wasn't aware of the amount of water that Almond Trees actually needed, but wow, this is eye-opening. I actually use almond milk for some recipes, and I might reconsider my choices because droughts are srsbsns.

Same for cashew nuts - I didn't know that cashew harvesting could cause that many health issues during harvesting, and while I know my dad loves them, I might find him other gift-snacks, now.

Seriously, this event opened my eyes, but not in a "GO VEGAN" way. A lot of these "cruelty-free" solutions aren't improvements at all, and might be damaging to all spheres of our ecosystem.

So, thanks staff, I probably wouldn't have learned all of that without that event.