Hellow!

I was talking about cws to (quite a few) many people and it seems like the main subject is always 'cws are dying' - I hear this rather often. It's not really a secret to anyone that there are very little artists left and not so many customers/buyers either. Direct proof of this is barely being able to fill 1-2 batches whereas it used to be 4+ back then.

I'm not saying cws are dead (I mean, RCW is proof that items are still being submitted!) but I feel like we're slowly exhausting what is left of them.

I don't even have any specific ideas myself, but perhaps we could brainstorm a few ideas that could help put cws back on the map. The first one I can see is the appearant lack of new cw artists - there's really just a few of us left and it stops cws from expanding with different styles/ideas (I know, I draw a lot. I should stop one day lol). There has to be a way to make cws appealing to artists who've never dabbed in cws before.

It would be lovely to see a new official cw contest, too! I know that they've been a bit messy in the past and there's probably a bit of fine-tuning to do, but those contests attracted new artists who were trying out! If there is a thread, I'm sure many cw artists (myself included) would be happy to help out & give advice (:

I don't know if it is staff-implemented, user-implemented, promotion, contests or just sitting with our arms crossed and waiting, but I remember cws when I first started, nearly 5 years ago, and the market was far more blossoming than it is now. I'd personally love to see the cw market more active!

Any thoughts? x3

Ideas so far! sorry if im missing any!

1. Official CW shop w/ recolor polls | Read more

2. CSC priced regular shops | Read more

3. Deleting CWs for csc (rather than using pawn shop) | Read more

4. CW help thread | Read more

5. Friendly CW introduction guide | Read more

6. Buy-back pawn shop | Read more

7. Deleting pawn shop items after one month | Read more

8. Lower submission prices | Read more

9. Sticky cw thread (intro, refs, livestream etc.) | Read more

10. Size-related cost of submission | Read more

11. Official Hustler CW shop | Read more

12. Daily quest for CSC (please no ads!) | Read more | + questing/daily ideas

13. Monthly SubetaBox (exclusive user-made items) | Read more | in the works by users!

14. Official billboard on the cw page to advertise new cws | Read more

[small]Please keep this thread and your responses open-minded. Every idea is worth mentioning ❤️

ps im sorry for the broken english, I realize that I repeated a couple words often. I usually speak/tpe in french!

This is a great thread idea!

I definitely agree that the CW market has been suffering in this period of time and I believe a lot of it has to do with treatment of commissioners and artists. A lot of people have been leaving and less motivated to release because of this treatment. The CW market in my mind has always fostered a sense of mistrust within people. People are able to report each other so easily for slight cw issues and staff is so willing to give warnings which artists and individuals must then defend. In my mind, this is so annoying because staff never bothers to hear the other side of what is going on from the artist or commissioner.

In addition, I totally agree that the lack of new artists makes it extremely hard for the CW market to ever grow. There are only maybe 4-5 (at most) truly active CW artists that are opening commissions and putting out artwork. I think that the site should do some promotion in the art market area with some contests that allow these artists to explore the CW market. This would definitely bring in more revenue and followers from main art channels into the CW market. Its not secret that the CW market is one of the main ways that the site brings in revenue and the site should dedicate more time to it then other areas of the site in my opinion.

Ehhhh that's a hard one, but I do agree that the CW market has been quite... empty lately.

I have been around for almost 4 years now and indeed batches used to fill so easily. During all this time, I have seen many people leave the website because of what stated; the way reports are handled. Sure that users must follow the rules, but it's pretty easy to get a warning over really silly things.

I will disagree slightly about the "staff never bothers to hear the other side" because, having gone through some warnings myself, staff who handled the issue for me did hear my side and even removed the warning I had received since I could prove them otherwise.

However the way people are so willing to screw others over just because they don't like someone (let's be honest; unless someone's attitude is harming you, I seriously don't understand people who report others just for "funz", even though they might have broken a lil part of the rule here and there). Like, please, just stop trying to find any reason to report people you dislike. Ugh.

Now about how to fix the issue. Well... I really don't know. I feel like a lot of potential CW artists don't try out CWs because they don't understand/aren't sure how to do it Subeta style, tbh. I've seen many people wanting to create CWs but for lack of tutorials and stuff, they just end up giving up middle way... :/

When I first started I was also pretty puzzled and had to face around 7 denials for just one CW HAHAHA

What I am not very sure of is... O1. Is the CW market dying because a lot of people left/are leaving the website, and thus friends of friends who left/are leaving also don't feel like playing here anymore or O2. Commissioners don't feel like commissioning always the same artists and thus we need new ones to also join us all and give a wider variety

Being an artist myself makes me wonder, so it'd be also very interesting to hear what the commissioners themselves have to say???

SORRY I DIDN'T HELP AT ALL LOL I just wanted to share my thoughts about this kjfhsdjkfh

Thank you ! YES YOU HELPED, plus I just made this thread to kind of... talk about it, so all the answers are good sdafasdf

I want to add that one of the reasons why people dont seem to hop onto the cw wagon is... we are intimidating? Lots of people told me that cw market looks like a scary part of subeta and well... let's face it, there's a lot of unnecessary drama. Whenever it involves IRL money, there's always something happening. We look like a bunch of teenagers and I'm p sure most of us are adults. If I had to start drawing cws today, I'd probably be reluctant as well just based off the amount of drama that surrounds anything cw-related.

We should also have clearer guidelines on what is accepted nowadays. The whole 'cellshading subeta' standard is far more lenient than it used to (hello yes i also faced 6 denials on ONE cw too lol). Knowing that cws dont need to be 100% cellshaded would likely encourage artists to give it a try - lots of the newer approved items are very soft! More tutorials would also be great (I plead guilty on this one because im a major procrastinator and I always forget to do anything)

I also agree that this whole 'report because you don't like someone' is ridiculous. If a rule is broken and you truly believe it should be adressed, alright that's more than fair. But a lot of the drama/hate/gossip comes from really dumb reasons like 'hey i dont like your face' or 'we used to be friends, now that we're not I'll just get you frozen'. That's one of the reasons why we're scaring people away, too.

People come and go, kind of obvious, but we're seeing more people leaving than we see new ones arriving.

Ah I just meant that I feel like they should directly communicate with the people that are being accused before giving any warnings because had you not went out to defend your name, nothing would have changed.

But yes I agree, people are so petty sometimes, I'm scared to make any mistakes when releasing ever.

Maybe a compiled list of tutorials should be posted in the art market and cw discussion forums so that it is accessible for everyone?? I think maybe this could be stickied along with bean's tutorial which is pretty iconic?

I think its a combination of those reasons along with other things. Lets be honest its always been the same 20-30 people buying cws around the market within this year. I've hardely seen any new faces within the market which is a problem. As a commissioner, I definitely only see you and still extremely active. Yes there are a few other artists, but they aren't producing as large quantities of art as you two. I don't think people are getting tired of your styles, but I do think more diversity in artists would be good. I used to love commissioning new artists even if the art quality wasn't always amazing because it really allowed me to see more drawing styles and encouraged these new artists to create more art! I know this didn't exactly answer your question so sorry, hopefully other commissioners can give you a better idea.

and I came up with a potential idea (dont shoot us down please!)

What if there was an 'official cw shop'. The artist will have the option of submitting their cw either normally (cw shop, batches etc.) or to submit it to the official shop.

Once it is accepted in the official cw shop, every user will be able to poll the color(s) they would like to see (up to x amount of colors, defined in advance by the staff). There could be a limit of items per month so that the shop isnt flooded either.

This would of course come with its own set of rules (ie doing the recolors in the next week, approval by staff, regular standards etc.)

Those cws will be purchasable via sp or csc (possibly at a lower rate than 'regular' cws?). They could also rotate (seasons, events etc.). X amount of profit made would go back to the artist (in sp or csc - usd is forfeited here)

One of the reasons behind this idea is many users commenting or mailing me to purchase a cw because they are too scared to post on the threads. User-run CW shops answered to this issue but I like the idea of a shop where people can poll on the colors.

Additionally, there would be no initial cost to submit the cw, which can be a huge deal-breaker to some people who want to give it a try without necessarily shelving IRL money right away. If an artist wants to develop and then sell cws regularly afterwards, go for it! Personally I'd be very happy to forfeit USD designs and submit some of them to the official cw shop if it stimulates the economy!

yayyyy ;o; <3

I also want to maybe touch on the intimidating part which is completely true. I like to think there is less drama, but in reality there is a lot of behind the scenes drama that goes on. I've dealth with my own share of drama with cws and it is really damaging to an individual. With the existence of things like subetaspeaks and cwgripes, I just don't know how people would want to even make/sell cws. Its just so discouraging in general. If there are ideas on how to combat negative perceptions of the cw market, I'd love to hear them ( besides ppl acting better cuz psh who wants to do that right?).

As a commissioner and a buyer, I believe the CW Pawn Shop has also added to the slowly dying CW market.

I have a hard time understanding why someone would buy a newly released item on Monday then turn around and pawn it on Monday night or Tuesday morning. They receive way less than had they made an effort to sell it to another user. First of all this causes the CSC to go back to the site, who, in effect, is absurdly collecting on the same item twice.

Additional issues created by the CW pawn shop are the mindset of "why should I pay 700CSC to slot on your batch when the item will soon be in the pawn shop for 500 or 600?"

If users were to be less dependent on the pawn shop and more willing to expend some effort to sell to another user, the CSC would keep circulating among buyers instead of the site and we might not be as CSC poor as we are now.

I personally feel there is too much dependence on the r200 advertising board. Not all of us have the time to search through pages of items and wishlists to find something we would buy. I feel certain there are items for sale on the r200 board I would buy, but I'm not inclined to go hunt for them. If the same items were in trades and were to show up on my item search, most likely I would buy them.

In summation, we are not doing enough to keep the CSC circulating among ourselves and are freely handing too much back to the site.

2 cents worth from nobody important

I think there are a lot of things to consider when you look at how cws are filling now vs before.

I've only been active with CWs for about a year (buying, releasing etc) and I suppose being somewhat newer to the scene than others it was 100% true that the cw community is intimidating. I originally wouldn't slot on anything even if I saw it - and bought from shops or other users even though I followed the NewCW thread and loved seeing things added on site. I'm not the most sociable of people to begin with, but at times I still find cws an intimidating process.

As for the drama, I don't have much insight on that. I mostly talk to a handful of people and I tend to stay away from conflicts and only find out partial things way later. I try to treat everyone with respect and not judge anyone based on opinions but on my own interactions with them anyway. I know some people can hold grudges but at the same time you have to realize this is an online pet site and if you come here for fun, then why make it something not fun? : We can only be responsible for our own actions. I've never reported anyone and I'm glad I've never needed to. It's sad that people can be targeted through reporting - and perfectly understandable that it would make people cautious and paranoid given that they could unknowingly leave a loophole capable of reporting. Headache inspiring.

Anyway, a lot of users who previously would slot on cws are people who would purchase CSC with sP earned on site, and the price of CSC never really deflated after the Luminaire period. Also Subeta removed a form of csc payment buying that was the only way for some people to purchase, I believe? So csc is harder to come by than before. Not to mention that it's coming up on vacation time here and a lot of people avoid spending so they can enjoy more things when they take trips.

I personally haven't been buying as much CSC because I was spending way too much on it and I don't commission many things because I basically get things I want regardless of whether they fill well or not.

Taking all those things into consideration, even if I like a lot of new things being released, if I already have something similar (and there are a lot of similar things around) or if I am not sure I'll use it then I'm less likely to slot especially considering cws aren't cheap.

I know you are going to spend more on custom wears vs site wears but I think if the submission prices were a bit lower more people would consider getting involved. Not to mention odd things that don't fill now might fill just because the price isn't quite as high. I think users are afraid of getting new things for fear that they won't fill or be profitable enough to justify the purchase.

I'd absolutely love to see more artists get involved in the CW market. Not just because it'd bring more styles in play but also different preferences and tastes. I love seeing odd or different things that I personally would never have thought of in design sales.

I think the events and things artists do for the cw community are nice and I'd love to participate if I had the time. I think a lot of new faces could be pulled in if they were exposed to the events I sometimes see done but it's unlikely that they will if they don't already follow the artists and cw community in general.

What do you guys think? ^o^

everyone's opinion is important, pshhhh!

I agree with the pawn shop being a part of the problem - people pawn things very easily, very quickly. We receive basically half of its worth just because it is a convenient and easy way to make csc (to pay for other slots afterwards)

Reading the r200 reasoning, I'd love to see a new type of shop implemented - one where users can sell their cws (just like regular shops - except csc priced). There would then be a button on the wishlist to make those wl items searchable (it functions just like a trade lot I suppose, except no one wants to make 20 lots for 20 different items, only to have to re-lot it after the 2 weeks expiration ;; )

This would more or less be an easier & less time-consuming method of selling existing onsite cws without having to make a thread all the time. People can still haggle if they'd like by commenting but the core of the 'r200 threads' where people sell their cws would now be in regular shops (again, csc priced rather than sP priced!)

I think raised a great point. People do think "why should I slot when it'll be in pawn eventually?"

I wonder if it would be possible for subeta to make an option to delete items for csc rather than pawn. Almost like a recycle program. It'd rid the site of excess copies and keep more csc among users?

I AGREE. Sometimes I feel like, besides the CW market being intimidating in regards of drama and all, I also have this feeling people are intimidated by artists overall :I I have had people telling me before in other websites that they were scared of talking to me and all, and I'm like, wut LOL

And yes. I have seen a lot of soft shading on CWs lately. It's really hard to know what will and what won't be approved by staff tbh. There are things that I push through and I'm like 'damn, this won't go through'. And it does. So gotta give it a try. Not to mention that if your CW is denied like 2, 3 times, staff also tends to add a constructive critique on how to fix whatever issue it may be having.

A compilation of art tutorials that mentioned is also really interesting! I have been trying to do more tutorials myself, in hopes it might help anyone who may have been having trouble with CWs. :P

I also used to care quite a lot about drama posted on SS, but tbh LOL now I turned the wtv mode on. Like, people trying to literally make you feel bad for every little thing. Please grow up haha.

I like the idea of an official shop as well. It's quite interesting. I guess the main issue we have is that, although we may come up with a lot of ideas, it's highly unlikely these ideas will be put into the website. Keith does listen to users overall, but there are stuff they are not willing to change, I guess? It would take a lot of effort to create new features to be added to the site and everything.

It'd be nice to come up with things we could possibly do for now as well that doesn't depend on staff itself! Remember that thread that once existed, where people helped others with denials?? What if we created one to help people who are having issues with CW creation? I know some users ping us on individual threads, but if we created a big one just for this purpose, it could also be some kind of a motivation??

EDIT:

is right as well. I also love 's idea. Deleting a CW for CSC would be awesome. The fact we have so many copies on the pawn shop for CWs that were submitted as 2+ batches is really off putting and it does affect the economy overall.

Also, many people do 1 batch for these reasons. So the CW won't be devalued and that makes sense. But for a commissioner who paid 20usd+ on a CW, I'm quite sure they would like to profit off of it and get the money they spent back, in form of csc, which is completely understandable. But for that, they'd need to do 2+ batches, and usually those always end up in pawn shop haha

you and I both then! Lots of people tell me that I sound nice but still intimidating and I dont really know where that comes from ;___;

The shading standard has greatly been softened, I just... don't know up to which extent either. I'm kind of on the same boat as you - I test it out and to my surprise it almost always gets accepted. But I don't know where to draw the line whereas back then, it was cellshading and well.. that's self-explanatory so it was an easier-to-follow guideline.

We should make a tutorial compilation! I also like the idea of this big 'help for cws' thread. I know there are a few ones popping in the discussion subforum of cws once in a while but tbh if im not specifically looking for that section there's a big chance I won't notice it at all.

As for suggestions - well... it's true that ideas vs. reality are a stretch but considering cws do net a lot of money and they could greatly stimulate the economy, im hoping maybe some of them will be atleast considered / looked at! The csc-priced regular shop one shouldnt be very hard to do and I feel like it would help with the overflowing market of people under-selling or pawning.

thank you for posting! I'm glad you were able to stay away from drama in general - trust me, this is not given to everyone. I've myself had my damn share of drama and warnings, I left for a few months a while back because I was so fed up. Cws are intimidating for many reasons, I'm trying to pinpoint -what- exactly makes them intimidating though.

The thing about cw prices is that I don't see the staff lowering the submission prices anytime soon (if not at all). There's also this whole +100csc profit that has now turned into +200csc profit (and some people attempting +250 or +300 as well) that boosts the price. I don't see this going down anytime soon at all either x.x

One of the reasons why I like collabs is that I draw things I never thought / wanted to do myself. They give me the possibility to explore art styles like you said! I think it's a given that nearly everything you've all seen me drawing so far tags to a certain 'type'. There are things I dont want to draw, others that I dont know how to draw - new artists mean new styles and I can't see this being bad at all. Now we just need to.... bring the new artists here haha ;;

You guys definitely make a lot of valid points I think. I really appreciate your points of view because it brings up a fresher and new point of view on the CW market itself!

The Pawn Shop point is a really great point. I mean people pawn so many great items because they need a little bit of cash. I mean I understand sometimes when things are unable to sell, but it devalues items so quickly.

I love 's ideas on the solution to r2000 and possibly Pawn as well. you really did bring up some good points and you are someone who people do look up to in a way when releasing!

In regards to , I do hope someday submission prices will be lower although I realize that its highly unlikely. Yeah I agree that a lot of things hardly fill and people would rather slot than even release in fear of it being unpopular. It is really hard for a lot of people because they spend usd on all these commissions and they end up with an item that struggles to fill.

IKR? I'M LIKE WHY U AFRAID OF ME, I DON'T BITE!!!

Also, excuse the dumb question, where could we possibly create the help thread??

And yes. I just actually finished reading what said, cuz I'm a slow typer and by the time I post, a lot of other people have posted already LOL. I agree that, although staff lowered the prices for submission, it's still quite expensive to push something through, especially if you are someone who buys csc with real money.

Tbh I never stopped to think of it, because I earn all my csc by doing commissions and stuff, but $50 to submit 10 copies of each item? $5 for a virtual item? :/ It's kinda expensive imo. I believe that, if staff lowered the prices for submission, more people would actually be interested in submitting items and thus, more csc would be bought, because with that same amount, more items could be pushed through, if that makes sense?

The fact CW feature is so expensive is one of the reasons that probably drive people away?? Correct me if I'm wrong :I A lot of people also get CSC from sp which they earned, and with those really inflated prices for CSC cards, damn. I guess that's also a big turn off sighs

U GUYS ARE SCARY BEASTIES

It is extremely expensive, ah I put in relatively little usd compared to others. I can only imagine how much some people put into buying cws. ;-; I feel like they would never lower prices because they as a business want to generate more income. Looking at the bigger picture, it could push a lot more items and make them even more profit, but not sure if they are willing to entertain this. Certain items that are so small fall into more expensive categories when something bigger could cost the same amount. Maybe using size as a factor within pricing would also be more viable?

I used to be a buyer and ready to throw my bucks to the nearest cw that caught my eyes. Nowadays? Not really. Let's say that I've stopped for these reasons (some are targeted only to me):

o1. I've lost a lot of interest in Subeta o2. The CSC/sP ratio is what the flying fuck at most o3. Everything is in the pawn shop unless it's sought after o4. Lack of diversity o5. Price of artist + getting the item onsite (targeting Subeta's here, not artists)

I won't talk about o1 because yeah, we know that a lot of people are leaving/less active. As for the CSC/sP ratio, I remember when 1oo csc was roughly 1m-3m at most and Subeta was much more focused on the Cash Shop. Nowadays, the ratio is pretty much all over the place. While it is easy to make sP here, if you buy a single cw a day ... you must play/rs/snip/whatever a lot. The site needs more people and it isn't positive for newbies so far. I believe that it affects the market somehow when it comes to the amount of buyers (both those that fill slots + commissioners).

I agree with and the whole pawning fiasco. The pawn shop is creating a garbage can of items (and some are very new) and it stays the same for so so long. I think that there should be more flash sale with reduced prices or at the very least, a limit to how much you can dump. I am already hearing the pitchfork and the torch, but it would be interesting to know who's selling their merch and who isn't trying to. I often find myself dumping CWs there because there are ... no buyers literally? I wish we had a "sell it back" option. Example: I as an artist, decided to display 10 copies while I was able to fill one batch. Later on, someone who isn't interested anymore can turn it back for the same amount (or 100 csc less instead of a rip off) and the item gets added to the pile. After X time, if it hasn't been bought not even once, the person that released it gets a notification to either 1) keep the item there for X csc or 2) Delete the entry (which will NOT delete but shelved it for X time)

I'd enjoy creating cws for Subeta and the userbase. But I'm afraid the guidelines and tutorial are just not that helpful at all. Plus, I'm afraid of investing money/sP and losing part of it because of the fact that slots aren't filling (so I cannot make any profits to continue) [Edit] halp?

I'm a bit confused about the size as factor? Like, don't they do that already? Regardless, like, I guess it's something they should try and see how it goes LOL Idk, my logic is that if submissions were cheaper, more people would be interested in buying CSC, since it would be affordable for a lot more people than it is now. Not everyone can spend $50 monthly on a website. But what if they could submit their own stuff with like $5? I may be wrong tho :(

WHAT IF YOU DO BITE, LIKE ALL YOUR ADORABLE PUPPY CIS. (wow if we're going to compare ourselves to our CIs, I guess im made of ice cream, cupcakes and icing because that's nearly all I do... lol)

I like to hear cw commissioners posting because let's be honest, you and I probably never spent a dime on csc. I often feel really bad for the amount of csc I own when I hear people saying they paid $5 USD to get their cw (which is why I gift like crazy & host super expensive giveaways because conscience yknow haha ;;;; )

At the moment, the market is 100% oriented towards the artists - they are the ones making pretty much everything. I think a part of it should also be shared with the commissioner because who wants to pay $50 for a design and THEN to submit the cw and THEN for recolors if they're not going to be profitable in the slightest? Lots of people told me they dropped buying cws because they were essentially losing money more than they were making some.

CWs are expensive but... I can't see staff lowering that at all D: SP to CSC conversion is also a problem because holy heck csc is so expensive nowadays o.o

Also for submissions - if someone can fill a whole batch, they dont technically shelve $50 right? They even make a slight profit off the first batch. (I might be clueless on this one because I have csc to cover batches, someone help me pls)

hi I got a ping from sonatine u___u

I think there are a lot of factors you can put into place for CWs "dying" or just not being as popular of a feature that it used to be. firstly, there's the obvious CSC is getting pricier and pricier for people who can't afford to buy CSC with USD. (I often see people reminisce in the shoutbox how CSC used to be like, what, 3m per 100CSC?). In no time, 100 will be 10m in the shop search which is a turn off and there's really no solution for that because if people did try to sell CSC cheaper and try to get the price down people will just buy, hoard and resell it for super high later. some people just can't afford CSC or they can't sell things fast or expensive enough to make ends meet when it comes to slots Or even submitting their own items direct-to-cs which is mostly the case since yeah, most items rarely fill a batch nowadays.

also there really are a lack of artists for CWs and points were made that people just don't really get cell-shading and there should be more tutorials aside from the video bean has posted. denials can be really frustrating and most times they can be extremely vague when they give you those generalized responses they have and since they can't technically discuss your CW with you, even in a ticket, it makes the promise even more discouraging and easier to abandon.

then there's subetaspeaks and cwgripes which makes people feel more intimidated to even POST in forums. I want to also say that's part of the reason that sometimes more sales can happen if people just put their CWs in trades with a CSC price tag in the description. some people just aren't into the social aspect of subeta, because people are mean and they have better things to do than submerge themselves into the drama. as for intimidation and resolving the negative perceptions, I'm not really sure. because while a lot of people are nice there are a lot of people in their cliques which is kinda ridiculous to be able to say for a pet site. ... and that also makes people wanting to participate either by making/selling CWs more discouraged.

as for what said !! I can't speak for others but I personally don't mind commissioning the same artists over and over because I actually happen to love their style of drawing, although it would be super nice to see some more artists! && from personal experiences I have had a lot of moments I've been so done with this site and know if I stopped releasing/collecting CWs I'd quit tbh because it's the only thing that prevents me from boredom here.

also I think the "Official CW shop" is a good idea to work with but I also feel like theres a lot of things staff has to focus on first on site to make the site better so while it's probably not plausible for the near future, and even the kinda distant future. honestly, I think CWs is low priority in general on here u___u

idk just my two cents!