http://www.icepets.com/newboards/viewposts.php?topic=5882&p=2

I stumbled upon this topic by chance, and it bothered me enough that I read it all the way through. Then I did a bit of digging, and found topics like this throughout other sites as well. What I'm talking about are posts by people who have been treated very harshly, and even unfairly, by Subeta admins. Say it isn't so, is this the dark side of the site that I know and love? Seriously, though... some of the things I'm reading about... "Multiple ppl using the same computer to access Subeta" ... "Logging in on a public computer(Library)" and other circumstances that lead to unjustified freezing or banning... they are very unnerving. I suppose this topic is meant to be more of a discussion than a question. I've been stewing in uncertainty and fear, neurotic and psychotic as I am. I would like to know, however, the protocols that are in place which prevent unjustified or excessive punishment. I would feel infinitely better if there were a nice, detailed process in place. Maybe then I can sleep tonight.

@ Pawprints-in-Sand I don't think any of that is real. Maybe on neopets, but not here. What actually concerns me more is how easy it is for users to get away with things and bend the rules sometimes.

Wow that thread is from 2011. I'm impressed that people who do not have an account on Icepets are able to read their forums. Also that thread was rather convoluted and hard to follow!

I wouldn't put much stock in posts like those though. A vast majority of the time the user is not being truthful and has indeed actually done something to get themselves banned. Not saying that mistakes can't happen, but that story, from what I could gather, just did not add up. If there's one thing I learned from my many years on petsites its that people try everything to cheat the system while still maintaining the public persona of being a golden user.

Follow the rules and you won't get banned.

-in-Sand It's been my experience that the Subeta admins are very understanding and helpful with warnings before going to the extreme of freezing users. I post when and where I can, usually from work, and am frequently on several different computers that other people use. It's never caused an issue here.

I'd prefer it if it wasn't real, and I haven't personally encountered any of these problems, but that doesn't amount to much, since I don't know many people who use the site. What I do know is that these complaints are all too common, and are often very similar. I have seen screen shots and other evidence that this does go on, but again, that doesn't necessarily mean much, since isolated incidents can hardly be assumed to be commonplace. As for the behavior of users, I cannot really comment on that, as again, I know very few people who ever used the site, much less continue to use it. In any case, I would still feel much more comfortable if I was assured that there was a process in place to prevent "instant freezing" and other such nightmarish scenarios. Are there protocols such as interviews and cross-referencing etc. in place to make sure that members suspected of illicit activity are given a chance to defend themselves or disprove wrongdoing? I feel like some details of this process should be posted beneath the RULES section or at least somewhere on the site. It promotes peace of mind. Then again, I could just be a paranoid rogue electron.

people taking stuff like this seriously scares me. if you're not doing anything wrong you've got nothing to worry about.

The rules (link at the bottom of every page) are pretty clear. "Each user is allowed to play on one account and one account only. Do not create multiple accounts for any reason whatsoever, even if your previous account(s) has been self-frozen or frozen by staff. Frozen users may still access the Ticket Center and should use it to request unfreezings. Self-frozen users may unfreeze with the click of a button and do not need to submit tickets. If you have lost any part of your login information, including username, please email us at .net">support.net. (Bold emphasis is mine.) also "If you access Subeta from multiple computers, share a computer with other Subeta members, or share an internet connection or network access with other Subeta members, do not post "notes to staff" in your profile; these are not checked and, if found by a member of staff, will be cleared. Please notify staff by submitting a support ticket via the Ticket Center, and be sure to include usernames and their relationship with you if possible. In addition to this, you should limit gifting and "one-way" trades between accounts on shared computers, connections, and networks to prevent confusion."

Be proactive in notifying staff of potential issues, play sensibly, and follow the rules, you'll be fine.

I've read the rules. The issues I've read about are regarding supposed rule breaking being treated as actual rule breaking, with little to no investigation or proof. And yes, I can see how some, maybe even most, and possibly (though quite unlikely) all of these allegations could be false. It is actually quite soothing to read all these positive responses, though. I truly appreciate it. I remain, however, curious about the steps that are taken if foul play is suspected. The only information that I can find on it is basically that users who have been frozen may contact the staff to appeal their case. Okay, that's a given, but how does the staff decide whether to freeze you, and how does the staff decide whether to unfreeze you? Obvious (visible/recorded/etc.) rule-breaking such as foul language or behavior in the forums is usually unmistakable, but do users receive warnings or get put on a "watch list" or "probation" period or something? Are there varying degrees of offenses which result in different levels of punishment or perhaps a "strike system?" Are there levels of punishment, or is freezing the go-to response? Is a user who has committed an offense "searched" to see if there is a pattern of behavior (opposed to a sudden change which may indicate a hack)? I'm not even sure if questions like this can be answered in a public forum, or if it's supposed to be a "behind closed doors" type of operation. This is a business after all

That thread was really convoluted and totally reeked of BS. Also what's that line from Shawshank? "We're all innocent here"?

-in-Sand There's a warning system in place. There's verbal warnings, which are just like "hey chill out or we'll have to get serious" and then there's official warnings, which if you get three of them, you get frozen. I believe there are insta-freezable offenses, but they have to be pretty blatant rule-breaking.

And really it makes sense for them to freeze you (general you, not specifically you) and let you plead your case as opposed to carrying on your suspected rule breaking. Keeps other accounts from getting involved through item trades or whatnot.

But anyway, I access Subeta from anywhere and everywhere (school, work, home, family/friends' computers) and I've never had any trouble.

It may be a bad example, but it was the first of several, which set me into Paranoia Mode. That's a personal flaw, yes, but addressing it has made me feel infinitely better. More specifically, the responses. Thank you especially, Archer. It's kind of a no-brainer, but hearing it (Finally!) takes a load off my mind. And now, perhaps, if anyone else is doing an internet search and comes across those unnerving forums, this one will pop up as well, and they don't have to panic for too long. (I'm not the only one that gets all panicky about virtual pet sites, am I? lol)

10 out times out of 10, these reports from banned/unjustly frozen users aren't telling the whole story, and done purposely so to make them look like an innocent victim shot down by the big bad admins.

Or they're butthurt when the community makes them realize they're BS may work on other pet sites, but it ain't gonna work here.

I never listen to those bullshit sob stories for those exact reasons.

So why exactly are you posting a link to a drama topic without proof made by a child 3 years ago? It even looks like some of those people got several pet sites mixed up and it seems like they are talking about neopets and not subeta. I wouldn't take anything there to seriously.

[edit] How fucking hard is that topic to read? Some people write an entire paragraph without "." anywhere and it looks like they talk without breathing holy crap what is air who needs air anyway I was going to keep going to make my point but this is driving me nuts.

I can't name a single person that I think was frozen on Subeta unfairly in my years of being here. And granted, I'm not a social butterfly so I don't know the exact details of every single freezing over the years... but literally no one I'm friends with has ever been frozen unfairly, and I can't think of any acquaintances either.

As a fellow worrier, save your energy. If you're concerned about a behaviour of yours setting off red flags, make a ticket and chat with one of the UAs. As an example, I'm on vacation in Florida right now -- I live in Canada. So my IP address moved from my hometown to Toronto, then to a city in Florida, then to another city in Florida, then back to the first city... I've logged in on public wifi, private networks... and I didn't have to notify anyone.

Unfair bans may be a big ticket issue with other sites, but personal experience suggests that they are not a problem on Subeta.

And as a well-intentioned piece of advice, I wouldn't rely on years-old drama topics as a source of either up-to-date or accurate information ;)

For a while there, I was worried about setting off red flags! I have logged on using library computers, and a friend of mine has logged on using the same computer, and that's what really got me worrying to begin with. "Whoa, all these ppl got frozen for this stuff, I'm next! OMG what do I do?!" LOL... The worst part is, I couldn't find any info about it on Subeta, so I wasn't sure what to think. This link is old, yeah, I should've shared one of the more recent ones, but in the end it makes no difference, it's the same concern either way. Again, the positive responses have put me totally at ease, so I'm not worried about it anymore. The experience has got me thinking that there could be a basic outline of the protocol taken in offense-related situations, perhaps in the rules section, along with the "if you get frozen, this is what you do" bit. If I had found something like that, there would've been no reason for this post! :P

Many, many moons ago I used to be one of the moderators for a very large group of forums. Neither I nor anyone on the mod/admin team ever banned anyone instantly unless it was blatantly obvious they were either a spambot, or clearly someone who had already been banned for rulebreaking before, and who was trying to come back before their ban was lifted. (There are ways to check.) In every other case, anytime anyone broke a rule and we had to give a warning we would always contact them privately, and always always explain exactly why we were giving them that warning and point to the specific rule that they had broken. In other words, we took great pains to make sure we were being fair. Despite that, there were always people who would claim to be absolute saints and swear up and down that they never did anything wrong, the mods were all evil and out to get them because reasons, etc. etc.

Anyway, from this side of the computer, it seems to me that the mods and admins here are much the same as my old team. Any time I've had to file a ticket and deal with a staff member personally, they've always been incredibly polite and helpful. At no point did I ever feel harassed or made to feel stupid for bringing up an issue, and this is coming from someone with thin skin. That's been my experience. There have been some cases over the years where I think staff could have handled a situation better than the way they did, but that's not the same as being harsh or unfair.

Now, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that someone on staff might have unfairly dealt with a player at some point, but one old thread from a completely different petsite is not enough evidence to convince me that it's a problem here. Unless I misunderstood, you said you found threads on Subeta where people were being treated harshly by admins...but then you didn't link to those threads. I find that puzzling, quite honestly. Until I see them, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say you're kind of overreacting.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see your latest post, where you said you felt better. Sorry about that!

there used to be a time years ago when ONE specific admin would dish out freezings for NO REASON other than they had a bad day and if you were online when she did this well SOL for you and any friends who may have had shared computers with, or anyone in a library, even if you had made a ticket to previously state it was a shared computer access in some form. She simply DIDN'T care and would freeze people. That person is no longer on site as like I said it happened years ago but older players will know of who I speak of.

I remember EnderNeko, and I remember when 4chan attacked and got their hands on a bunch of account information and any account that appeared to be compromised was frozen-- but anyone who contacted staff had no problem being unfrozen. But other than that, I had no idea there was a rouge UA freezing everyone left and right because they had a bad day (how would you even know who froze you....)

No problem! And no, that's just it, I found no info one way or another anywhere on Subeta, everything I saw was all over other websites, posted by people who had (supposedly) already been banned for this reason or that. One thread, of course, wouldn't be enough, it was just the first of several. I didn't instantly assume it was all true, but it did get me feeling disillusioned, especially since there are rules in place which seem "iffy" or open to interpretation, which could be either good or bad, and it was the possibility of 'bad' that bothered me. And of course I understand that how admins deal with users can vary greatly depending on the situation, and there will be instances when it's harsh and even unfair (even our federal judicial system, in all it's glory, will never be perfect), but at this point, I still think it would be comforting for there to be a basic outline of procedure along with the rules. You know where it says that you can send in a Ticket if you feel that you've been unjustly frozen- that's all well and good- but adding in some assurance that steps will be taken before it gets that far would be even better. Even something as simple as what you just said (anytime anyone broke a rule and we had to give a warning we would always contact them privately, and always always explain exactly why we were giving them that warning and point to the specific rule that they had broken) would be excellent! I've also heard that there is a "three-strikes-for-the-same-offense" or "five-strikes-total-in-a-certain-period-of-time" type of deal, etc., which would be great to mention. It may seem pointless, but assuring users (especially neurotic ones) that there is a safety net, and that their confidence is valued enough to point out how the safety net works to protect them, would be as valued as it would be simple to add. That's just my thought on it, but hey, put to a vote, most people probably wouldn't give a hoot.

I'll tell you a story! When I first started, I also got my nephew to join (about a few months after) and I sent him some stuff to get started because he was just over 13 and so he was still getting the hang of being online. Well I sent too much and the admins thought I made another account. It took me very little time to get both accounts unfrozen and there has been no problem. You can always make a ticket after getting a warning to have things explained if need be. I don't think they should have to contact you because most of the warnings are pretty self explanatory. If you get a warning for I dunno....advertising in the shoutbox...well it is kinda apparent what you did. Besides, you can get warnings taken off after a certain amount of time. The UAs and MMs are very approachable and I have felt nothing but safe here. I came here from a bad situation and everyone has been super duper nice. They do a lot more here than they do for you on other sites.

As others have said. Those people on the other sites that are complaining probably did more than they are letting on.

Just throwing my two cents and personal opinion, which matches the others who posted previously.

Unlike Neopets, here I haven't ever heard of anyone getting unfairly frozen, not among my friends, not among my 'acquaintances', not among their own friends and acquaintances. If anything, outside of the "zero tolerance" policies mentioned, the issue may actually be that people get way too many chances ;x

I access Subeta from every possible device I have access to, which includes different IPs and 3G internet/mobile access. I help a few friends out with Custom Wearables, which implies I submit/sell things and send them CSC on a regular basis. I also gift people often. I go on vacations/holidays every once in a while (following my country's holidays), sometimes international trips, and I actually have never opened a single ticket to tell staff where I was going. Yet, I have never, ever had any issue, with any of those things.

Most warnings can be cleared after two years, so if you learn from any mistakes you might have done, you still have the chance to clear your records after enough time has passed.

Stay away from those cheating "tricks" (cheats in general, actually), don't do things like attempting to sell traced art, etc. and I can pretty much assure you you're not going to have any issues around here.

[edit] We're also more than welcomed to open tickets to ask staff questions - I have done that on a number of times -, which feels very reassuring to me!