@ Cream I know, and I have no beef with you about it. That's why I replied to the idea rather than pinging you. We all want the site to keep on truckin'!

Even as a last-ditch effort, I think the pay-to-play system wouldn't result in much beyond a super disappointed userbase. :/ Imagine returning to the site after a few hectic months IRL and finding out that all your stuff, your pet profiles, wearables - everything is basically being held ransom. Can't afford 5$ for whatever reason? "lol sorry you invested all that time saving up for pet slots, CWs and making friends. sux2b you if you can't afford to pay."

I wouldn't mind a monthly subscription thing for those who can afford it. Heck, maybe I'll be able to afford it once I'm debt-free! But locking the entire site down, or tiering site access based on how much real money you've paid feels like a kick in the face, especially with the 12-month-inactivity clearing system and old users sporadically returning and getting into the site again.

[edit] Editing to add an idea for the monthly sub: maybe it could have the bonus of getting a sneak-peek of WIP sketches for wearables, pets & the creative process behind creating some of Subeta's lore? Or to a lesser degree, deciding via poll what finished stuff gets released in which order that month (ex. reborn pet revamps, wearable revamps, a new costume trunk revamp, delish set. etc.)? All that stuff would get released over the span of a month. The poll would only run once all these things are finished & ready for release to avoid the current teahouse & garden scenario, but it would give people a sense of participation and accomplishment.

I worked for Subeta, I played Subeta for years, but I wouldn't pay anything for it now. Not when the Internet is filled with free alternatives, I wouldn't pay for a subscription, not with the casual usage I make of it.

I love coming in, looking at what new items there are, and then log off. I have...too little free time to really invest myself in Subeta again. I like the community, I like the staff (except he smells jk I like Keith too) but, I don't like it enough to pay for it.

I know it sounds like I lack gratitude, but fact is, as an international player, investing in american hobbies is expensive. The exchange rate isn't beneficial, and 20$ spent in the cash shop is closer to 30$ canadian boonies, so...I'd rather keep that money for Canadian things.

I might feel dissonant compared to everyone, who wants the site to stay alive, but I'd rather have the site remain free, and close, rather than have it lock all/most content to paid users.

At least, my last thoughts of the site wouldn't be clouded with thoughts that management turned greedy in the end.

I'd love for Subeta to stay alive...but not at all costs.

So this thread kind of blew up. Not surprised, seeing as it's a very hot button topic right now with noticably low player counts and some troubling things being said (or at least, troubling phrasing being used) by staff members. But I think its worth taking a step back and not turning this thread into a big doomsaying fest.

First up? I don't think anybody needs to worry about Subeta going pay-to-play. I think that idea stems from the discussion earlier about adding more features to Gold Accounts to make them more appealing. Personally? As long as the added features don't actually detract from the unpaid expirence, that'd be fine in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with giving users more appealing things to pay for as long as the staff don't pull an EA and start intentionally creating problems just to sell us the solutions. And given that Subeta is and has been a passion project for a long time? I doubt we have to worry about that.

However, that doesn't mean there aren't problems. I'm an optomist, so I'm not super worried about the site just suddenly closing up on us one day. (Not discounting that it could happen but has already stated he's been happily keeping the site going himself as it stands) but even I can see that the site has some major issues. Stagnation is a big one, but that stagnation has a reason:

I'm no expert and I don't know how the inner-workings of the site management run. But from what I can tell, a big problem right now seems to be that there's a very small staff dividing their attention constantly over multiple subjects. We've had projects that have been "in the works" for a long time, we've had multiple betas for wardrobes, none of which have apparently ever "finished". We've had rule changes and policy tweaks and forum updates that have been confusing at best. And it seems to me that the best strategy would be for the staff to all focus their attention on one objective at a time, instead of spreading themselves out across multiple things that then end up taking ages to finish.

If the site is going to be "fixed" then imo the best way to go about it would be a kind of checklist system. Identify the highest priority issues that users are expirencing, and then pour all resources into tackling those issues one at a time. It'd obviously be a big undertaking, but at least that way we'd probably start seeing some actual improvements coming in at a steady rate, as opposed to the current method of things being announced at some point, then everything going dark for ages until suddenly, with very little announcement or warning, something comes out.

I mean, maybe this is already how the staff operates, I don't know. And I'm no expert on these matters, I'm just spitballing ideas here. But I don't think people need to freak out about some kind of apocalypse just yet.

I firmly believe that with the right direction, this site could get some life breathed into it and pick up popularity again. Exactly what should be focused on first, though, I couldn't say. Just that I think things need to be tackled on a step-by-step basis.

A long list of thoughts, in no particular order.

1. I agree that if the site turned pay to access in any manner it would be the death of Subeta. As the recent age poll shows many players are adults, and that means we have other bills to put first and that means less disposable income. That seems to be why many people wait for the Bonus Weekend to renew GA's and otherwise buy CSC. And the whole international conversion bit that's been brought up; $5 is $5 for me because I'm in the US, but for someone in another country it could be twice that much or more in the local currency.

2. As was mentioned previously, the joy of Subeta is that even if you can't afford to spend cash on CSC you can save up sp for it in a reasonable amount of time so people who can't put cash into the site can still get the cool features. I've literally never been on another site that has anything close; you earn whatever 'premium' currency only sparingly if you don't buy it with cash, it's not sold in any manner for regular currency (or it's expensive af if it is) and/or people don't sell the items you can buy with premium currency for regular currency (or, again, they're way too expensive). Changing that by doing something like offering Gold Accounts as cash only or releasing cash only perks or items will likely either not get bought, will get some seriously massive backlash, or will be another thing for people to say the staff are just cash grabbing over. Offering a fundraiser of some kind off site versus offering cash only stuff on site is different because a fundraiser won't offer things on site that we can't get through other means unless they did something with physical merch which it makes sense to make us spend cash to get.

3. I agree that the staff do need better communication amongst themselves, and to focus on one thing at a time. The fact that we get promised so many things and then they either get dropped or we have to wait literal YEARS to hear anything about them. The disappointment, and knowing we can't rely on staff to get projects done, is likely driving away a lot of users and hearing about this is probably keeping new people from signing up.

4. Advertising would be nice. Users can spread word all we like but our influence is limited. Having advertising put on other sites by the staff would be insanely helpful for bringing in new people.

5. Subeta has has lag at every holiday for literal YEARS and it never seems to get fixed despite promises it will be. I remember events from 2009 being laggy with thousands of players online, and we have the same amount of lag with less than a thousand online in recent times. I can see why this would lead to people being concerned that the return of a larger player base would only lag the site all the time. As far as I can tell no explanation has ever been provided for all the lag; the staff say they bring up extra servers or space or whatever is needed but it happens anyway, and at least one event this year was lagging so terribly because of a memory leak somewhere that we didn't find out even existed until days into the event. Don't get me wrong, I like having extra days to do event stuff but when every event has to be extended because there's lag at the start that makes the site unusable it gets annoying fast.

6. In some aspects Subeta does feel like too much work, and that can lack appeal to a lot of people. Refusing to give us mass ads for various things (Survival flowers, anyone?) because it would be 'too easy' really just feels like a cop-out on the part of the staff. If anything mass adding should be considered an accessibility thing, because people have disabilities that make doing a lot of clicks difficult or impossible. If a lot of users are asking for or suggesting a thing just outright saying 'no' shouldn't be done and instead the staff should consider reasons beyond 'laziness' that people would want certain features.

7. Agree on the removal of unique pet names. With Charahub gone and Subeta intended to be a replacement of sorts this just seems like the smart thing to do and honestly shouldn't be that hard.

8. I like the idea of the support goal being moved to weekly, or even monthly, and giving us some incentive to fill it. I like the ideas of things like the first weekend of the month all quests being bonus quests if we filled the bar the previous month, or getting 2 bonus quests instead of just 1 a weekend if we've filled the weekly goal. Opening up the CW pawn shop for a weekend if we fill the monthly goal is also one I saw that I liked. But basically whatever it is, give us goals to support the site.

9. Yes to making a GA more useful. If you look at the thread in the GA subforum asking about what perks of a GA people use most, the autopricer is like 99% of the answers. I remember in the past too it was the 5 extra pet slots, but with so many other ways to earn these days that's slightly less of a thing.

I agree with what's already been said about unfinished projects.

Players have been begging for certain items for years. A few examples -

1. Sheer gloves for the other arm.

2. Sports equipment and suitable backdrops to go with them.

3. Backdrops with streets and shops from various places in Subeta. Very artistic backdrops are nice but many people want backdrops for casually dressed HAs carrying shopping bags.

4. Laboratory equipment to go in scientist pet treasure chests.

Maybe older players would feel more enthusiasm if they could get some of the things they're longing for. New players, meanwhile, won't get a good impression if they look through the suggestions forums and see that many items have been asked for in several different topics dating back a couple of years.

I really like the idea of changing the daily support bar to monthly with small rewards for filling it (someone suggested opening the free shop for a day, that's cool). Maybe bigger rewards for consecutive months (like 6 months in row)? Like a pet slot or a one week good account medal?

A couple of folks touched on this, and I really want to chime in again re: unique names -

Subeta has the potential to be marketed as an awesome place/hub for characters and creatives. It's nice being able to attach your character to a pixel drawing. It helps bring them to life. : )

You're able to have 100+ pets (is it over 100 now?) on your account. That helps keep them all collected and organized, so you can have pretty much ALL of your OCs, fan pets, tribute pets, etc in one place.

On top of that, there's so much potential to customise your pets to be vessels of your OCs and such - Thousands and thousands of items to build TCs, custom coding, and probably the coolest thing - being able to create custom art to represent your character ON SITE.

However, with the unique naming system it's incredibly difficult to have all of your characters and such here. Yes, you can find alternative names to represent them. But often...it's just not the same. The character/pet just...doesn't feel right.

New and old users who want to use this site as a creative space and hub for their characters, stories and such find it difficult and frustrating to do so with the archaic unique naming system.

Can you imagine if toyhouse had a similar unique naming system on their site? How many people would be able to, let alone want to use the site with a system like that? And I feel like new users who would like to use Subeta as a character hub leave immediately when they find they can't get a name they'd like for their characters.

Times and technology change. Back in the day, I understand why it was necessary to have the unique naming system. But again, there's so much potential to draw in a lot of creatives to the site.

This is another suggestion unrelated to pet names:

Another fun GA account perk could possibly be adding a sticker under your forum avatar? I was going through all of the stickers onsite on sublodge's database and a lot of them have so much personality! <3 They remind me of old school forum avvies. This sticker thing would work and appear similar to the pet leash. You pick a sticker that you already own and it'll appear under your human avatar - either above or below the pet if you're using a leash. : )

So here we go lmao [ul]

Re: mandatory pay to play I honestly thought I misunderstood that suggestion at first because...really? Does any site do that? I think we almost all agree this would be more detrimental to the site than anything and there's no way it would happen but I'm going to go ahead and throw my two cents on the pile anyway. I think I contribute quite a bit of money to Subeta and almost always have a GA paid for with actual cash, and even I think it would be super gross if they required payment for every user just to log in. How and why would anyone ever get started with the site then? No one's going to pay for something they aren't familiar with and don't even have time invested in yet and we need to attract new members, not drive absolutely everyone away. Not to mention the total unfairness of such a suggestion; that's some pretty privileged thinking to believe everyone in the world can afford to spend any amount of real money on pixels, and every member here is valuable even if they can't spend real money on the site.

I do think additional benefits for GAs (as long as they don't break/change the game too much) would be beneficial. Clearly, the number one and usually only serious reason for buying a GA is for the autopricer and I think it's worth it, but that may not entice everyone. Also, it's pretty easy to coast along without one for a long time and then just get a one-week GA with sP to autoprice once in a while if that's all you need it for. I believe CSC should always be available to acquire with sP/Morty Cards/Bathhouse but it wouldn't hurt to have more incentive to purchase more of it with cash. I mean specifically with recurring GA benefits, not just more cash shop additions, because when those far outweigh non-cash releases it really reeks of a cash grab and that's not a good look. I don't have any GA perk ideas in mind at the moment but I'm sure many suggestions have been made elsewhere.

As an aside, 's last post really resonated with me. While I'm personally not too bothered by the big projects that take longer than predicted, and as I have said previously, I'm impressed by the near-daily additions/updates to the site, I do wish we'd see a stronger response to minor suggestions that have a lot of support. There are things that seem like such minor things and yet they never get realized. Specifically related to that post, for example, I'm still forced to use water skis with the snow backgrounds (even one that is supposed to specifically represent a ski resort) if I want a snow skiing avatar. How do we not have skis yet? Pretty sure that suggestion comes up every winter and it would be a lot simpler to do than some of the other random new things that are released "out of the blue"...which is not at all to say I'm ungrateful for the unexpected surprises, but can we get on some of those really popular little suggestions too, please? =D

I just found this thread yesterday and finished reading through it just now, and what strikes me is that people really do care a lot about this site and the community it creates. Equal parts heartwarming due to that and also distressing because I haven't been active enough to notice or worry about the possibility of the site disappearing/devolving/diminishng/whatever. I've taken Subeta for granted, it's nice to pop in and do my daily quests, bathhouse etc, while I'm busy with school and then when I have more time, to engage more (especially when my free time coincides with plots, holidays, events). But for the most part I don't engage in the community and seeing what this thread includes makes me want to. I want to be a part of Subeta!

That said, the ideas I've seen that I really like are: -patreon-type subscription and/or crowdfunding(via monthly support goal or similar) in which the monetary support really feels like it's going into the upkeep/improvement of the site. Kickstarter-like stretch goals and such (of course, keeping it reasonable to what the staff can manage in that time!) If I really feel like my money is going to make something happen, it would be appealing to pitch in when I can to help this site. With the cash shop and CSC it's more to get items I want rather than save up the sp. I like that too, but I really think that feeling that as a user, I am part of making the site better, would mean a lot.

Also, I would definitely advise against making any obvious paywall, however I do think that there should be a sort of reward system for consistently or regularly or just a certain number of times of contributing to the site. It would suck if you were on your way towards a six-month subscription reward and at the 5th month, oops, there was a financial emergency or you can't continue the subscription for other reasons, and that streak is set back to zero. However I do think an incentive to be actively supporting the site should exist, I would just advise caution in regards to making it too great and unattainable for others who might not be able to do so. However, I think many would see Subeta as worth contributing to even without, or for a smallish bonus. I guess it depends on whether or not you are willing to risk alienating people who can't be active consistently, and whether said people would be bothered by not having access to a high tier prize even if it's for a clear reason.

Personally I like the idea of accumulating tokens, with increased amounts of tokens gained for consecutive months or contribution milestones (like 7 months in one's lifetime, even if not consecutive). It could work similar to the existing forum or loyalty shops, with the items still being possible to be sold for high amounts of sp on the user markets so they are something to aim to attain, cash money or not.

-CWs: I personally never got into CWs, when they were new they seemed like a gimmick and grew into the elite-feeling culture they are today. However, seeing people talk about how sometimes(often?) a CW is made with the intent of having a cool item that a group of friends can share, I actually really like the sentiment of that. That and the idea of having more applications for them. Such as integrating them much more into the development of the site, like if art for a certain type of item is needed(say, laboratory equipment, as mentioned before), there could be a call to action for CW artists to help develop new items of a category. Not even necessarily a contest, but more like a group contribution, perhaps user-voted, that makes it feel like the players are truly integrated into the development of the site. Now, I don't know how exactly one would need to regulate that sort of thing, but I think user submissions would really help make the site feel like users are a part of it, and draw in new users as well. Though I do understand the worry that there might be disappointment for users whose art doesn't get integrated, so perhaps as a consolation/participation prize, there could be something similar to the quest-a-thon rewards such as forum titles (perhaps even not specific to the one event they submitted for, but more related to being an item maker in the first place. Maybe a tiered achievement?).

I'm also aware of how the Masquerade contest... really didn't go as expected for a lot of people, so I'd look at complaints about that to see how that sort of thing could be done better. If CWs did end up getting overhauled re: batch limits and exclusivity, I imagine more people would be more willing to accept that their items may not have "won" but can still be a part of Subeta in any case.

That got long already, I apologize. What I'm mainly trying to get at here is that something that would make the site more appealing in a way other than mimicking other pet sites (or OC storage, or game sites) is to indeed include more user input/fanmade content. Given the reaction to CWs, I feel like it could be popular with new users and current users alike, but again I'm not very active on here these days so I don't know what the general opinion of current users is on this sort of thing.

Also, before I go, I would love for the forums to be organized/more active as well! I don't know how or when that would be done but seeing how people interact on here makes me want to be more active in the community as well (my lack of free time notwithstanding, I'd like to meet and talk to people more).

Sorry this is a bit of a ramble, I need to go to sleep soon and I was rushing ^^;

So can someone explain to me why site updates is only in forums, when it should also be thrown on the news as well? Remember, people not signed up can't see the forums, but can at least see the news. If they see the news is updated constantly with site fixes and the like, it will show that staff are active and making changes to improve the site.

I pretty much never bother looking at the forums, not even when I do get a siteupdate ping or pings in general, but I have the news bookmarked. I'm not saying get rid of the forum ping, just add updates and such into the news too. Call it "site update logs" or something. The more places you have news available, the more likely everyone will be on the same page on what's going on and not be confused about what's been done or not.

edit: Also, I'm not saying taking vacations are unwarranted or bad or anything. Lucky for anyone that can take vacations from work. I'm not that fortunate for one, and also simply don't get it. Work a job you love, and you'll never consider it work. Time is money, and I've got no time to be wasting it away sitting around "relaxing" or "taking it easy". I'll have all the time in the world to relax when I'm old and crippled from arthritis.

What if a GA would increase the payout of games? Instead of 20k for each cleared Caliph's Tomb game, maybe 30k. Unless that already happens bc whenever I had a GA, I only used AP and extra Wardrobe layers.

& It's hard to justify spending CSC on new wardrobe things when said wardrobe keeps getting hang up on adjusting the items :( I'm sure it's getting worked on but it's a big obstacle right now.

I mean, even if you work at a job you love, you're still gonna get burnt out--that's pretty much inevitable. Vacations are necessary for mental health, plus I'd rather travel or do fun stuff in my prime, when I've actually got the physical capability to do so. As long as we're operating in a capitalist system, workplaces should be required to pay for employee vacation time. I'm relieved to hear that Subeta staff do earn vacation time--you've gotta take care of the folks making this place possible, even if they adore their jobs! (I could go deeper into my politics, but I won't go too off topic.)

ANYWAY I do really like 's idea of putting site updates in the news. It doesn't have to happen often, maybe once a week at most, or twice a month. Basically, just a very public, very visible post explaining what things on the site the staff have worked on. The post itself could summarize the update itself, then users could click to see more, or get a link to the forum post. e.g. something like:

It basically just makes it clear to new users and visitors that the site is continually being worked on, improved, and updated. That there are real staff who really care about the site's functionality, and who listen to user feedback. It just makes the site friendlier as a whole at first blush.

I disagree with increasing the payout for games, since I could see people saying that it's effectively pay to win. Maybe more plays per day, e.g. 15 plays of Caliph's Tomb instead of 10? I'd make use of that.

As for additional GA perks, what about a souped-up version of loyalty boxes? If someone has 12 months of non-consecutive GA time, maybe that user could get double the benefits of a normal loyalty box, for at least some of the options (2 pet slots instead of 1, a bigger stat boost, etc.). The reason I suggest non-consecutive is because financial emergencies happen, and it'd be really, REALLY punishing if someone had 10 months of GA time, was so close to getting the award, and couldn't get a GA for some reason for just one month.

I'd also like to see if items on our wishlist could be boxed with additional colors depending on what category we put them in. I keep track of my gourmand's and reader's still-needed items with my WL, and it'd be nice if I could see at a glance why I put an item on my WL. It's not a necessary function of the site, but it is a QoL boost, so it might be appropriate as a GA perk.

I've given up buying redeemable wigs. Once they've been redeemed you're stuck with them forever. Maybe there are others like me who would like the option to unredeem them so we could remove them from the wardrobe and sell them.

If I could do that I'd definitely buy more redeemable wigs with some of the CSC I spent real money on the other month.

Something I've seen brought up in the past is that Subeta is a very timing-based site, and I think that hurts its casual playability a lot. A lot of people don't have the time or availability for that - especially people with full time jobs and money to spend that could help support the site.

Name clearings happen at 3pm EST, which is 2pm CT and 12 noon PT. I don't know many people who are home doing nothing at this part of the day. A lot of potential players have jobs, and even if they're part-time, it's unlikely that their work hours are strictly before or after this block, especially taking travel time into account. It's the same for college classes. Even if someone isn't at work or school, that's a terrible time of day to be forced to be at home. It's right in the middle of everything.

Timed events and battles are equally as obnoxious. When the are bonus prizes for being in the first few to solve a puzzle etc, people with jobs or classes are screwed. This is further complicated by the fact that Subeta is mostly incompatible with mobile devices and a HUGE drain on data. Every time I used this site on my old phone, even if I just hopped on to check my events, I got data usage warnings from how heavy it is. Battle events are tedious and happen for a limited time, so if you have a long work day, you aren't going to get the best prizes. This is, once again, crippled by Subeta's lack of mobile compatibility. I can't relax in a coffee shop or a local park, or pass my wait at the DMV by battling because it's impossible at worst and just not fun at best.

While not something staff controls, CW slots are another time-based feature with limited availability. If I cared a lot about wearables but had to work a full time job and could never catch any desirable slots, and therefore either had to pay scalper prices or just do without... I'd be pretty discouraged from bothering with the wardrobe as a money sink and a fun time-waster, which is what dress-up doll simulators are meant to be.

I don't think i can say this enough. fix the minion zoo for the love of god.

Jumping in again to say I agree a lot with this whole post.

I have much more flexible working hours than most adults, but I'm simply not willing to rewrite my entire schedule around being on Subeta at some specific time. Most of my 'casual game' time is spent on the phone nowadays, like most people, and I can't just jump onto my PC whenever I want to play this one game. Likewise, I'm not willing to spend dozens of hours on an event just to get good prizes anymore.

I think the staff have done a lot to address these issues of time in the past few years. Event shops are open year-round, the bathhouse gives out special currencies, TS restock times are more varied, etc. However, all of that isn't enough if people can't access and interact with the site in any meaningful way on their phones/tablets.

Subeta needs to address technical problems that arise, and not depend solely on one person to do the job. What if they don't know how to do it, or someone's unwell? Are the other staff able to help each other?

A notable issue recently is the lag throughout this anniversary. If you're on at the "wrong" time, that's always a terrible time, because most of the time is spent waiting for the pages to load. It's most notable the hour before midnight, and I don't know why it tends to significantly clear up afterwards. It seems like the site is just loading whenever it wants to. Halfway through the event, I heard that Bug is feeling better; I guess that's why it's been quite slow. But where is Keith this event? Is this a sign of what's to come with events to follow?

Also, Subeta needs to regain the initiative instead of leaving it to the users. This commitment needs to come from the top. Users can voice concerns and suggest solutions, but the major decisions that impact their experience are ultimately from Subeta's management.

If Subeta can overcome these setbacks, I believe we will get more players. Otherwise, I don't know how things will be successful besides a pure miracle.

Agreeing about the lag, which is something I noticed heavily, and the time-based stuff. I also have very flexible hours and primarily use my PC, but I felt no compulsion to keep up with restocking during the pirate themed event because there are always people with faster connections who are just better at it and getting my hands on a few items isn't worth the time and effort.

And yes, there needs to be more people on the technical aspect it cannot all solely rely on Bug and maybe sometimes Amber and Keith when he can get here to help. The minion zoo has been broken for literal months, and there's the error of the npc shop discount code wearing off being the quick time buff from masq that's been going on for a while too, in addition to several other errors that seem to just be left in favor of getting to the new event stuff on time which is very, very annoying and would not fly on any other website.

Finally, in the wake of the anniversary/pirate event thing it's clear that the staff still have troubles communicating with us. Wizard was supposed to give out old Lumi items, but instead of making a new announcement that this would not be the case the old news post that very few people were going to look at had been edited, and from there it took a thread asking what the heck was going on to get a better answer but that answer was still limited to that thread and the old edited news post instead of making a new news post to get the word out. Battlers expected to get the pirate themed challengers back, but again nothing was said about and both that news and the Wizard/Lumi items was saved for an announcement with less than 12 hours before event end.

I'd say it's obvious the staff aren't communicating with each other too. As soon as it was known pirate battlers weren't coming back there should have been an announcement, and it shouldn't have taken until halfway into the event to decide that by whoever makes that choice. Management needs to pull it together and start doing better, or yeah no amount of new players is going to make the difference.

Yeah, I feel sorry for Amber - she's the most visible "face" of Subeta so she gets all of the blowback, for things that she cannot control and are not her fault. It honestly seems like Amber and Bug are the only people who work here!