I stopped financially playing subeta a long time ago. The bonus weekend items lured a few bucks out of me, until I realized I could just buy them off other users. There's only one thing that'd get my wallet out and apparently the concept of non-unique names caused more conflict than gun laws in america.

I agree largely an issue is the change in our real world that has changed the desires of our fictional world. Ten years ago I was in a position where I felt inclined to lose sleep/call in sick to battle a boss for several days to hopefully get the best prize. These days, eh. I have enough "I kill myself for a job in hopes of the prize (promotions, more income) ultimately to just be rewarded with nothing but more work", why the hell am I going to do the same in a game?

Let's use Animal Crossing as an example.

Is everything given to you? No, only the starter house which technically you have to pay back. You have to put in some effort to make people like you, make your village pretty, and do things to earn money. But with a degree of effort, you can have anything; sometimes that effort is playing the game daily in hopes of someone selling what you want (damn fireplace), and sometimes the effort is hoping the silly wolf won't walk to close to that tree and scare off that beetle.

Tl;dr when scarcity and elitism causes people to either not have fun, or feels like work, with a game they usually stop playing. If new players joining and staying is more important than than the older nostalgia playerbase, then research into what games are thriving and why should be done. If the nostalgic older players is more important, than we just ride this ship until it sinks.

Ps: yes I'm an older user. I've been here 13 years, 14 years this October.

I think hit the nail on the head with the idea of games losing their appeal if they feel like too much effort. Subeta should also consider the age range of its userbase--how many of us are adults working full-time jobs (or multiple jobs), with kids and/or school to worry about?

I'm also a long-time user--will be 14 years here in February (and once that happens, it'll mean I've had this account for over half of my lifespan)--and as I've aged, I've lost precious free time. I've got personal work, classwork, work-work, volunteer work, and I have real-life relationships to attend to. I don't want to dedicate too much of my mental energy and time to working so hard for my idle entertainment. Plus, these days I tend to play Subeta during my downtime at work, anyway, so I can't ever be too terribly involved in anything in case I need to tab away.

Even events--like Masquerade or Survival in particular--just mean I should set up a contest/raffle thread to get the currencies I need, so I'm not participating as much as someone who's actively looking for users to dance with or kiss. I'm not interested in clicking a button, waiting a few minutes, and clicking it again--that's just spending time for the sake of spending time. I could be doing so many other things in those few minutes, but it's the only way to earn site currencies. It's dull.

Of course, it's tricky to decide whose needs should be prioritized--a user who's able to sink more time/effort into Subeta, or a more casual one. I don't know what more to suggest beyond making more casual, non-grindy entertainment options, like puzzle games or plot-centric events.

I feel like there's hardly any true forum movement as in actual conversations now sure, not everyone should be social but I find it a bit disconcerting the forums are so dead when a closer knit community like subeta, in terms of numbers of players on, should be more active on the boards.

I don't know about you, but if I join a new website, a forum is a good indicator of site engagement, so if I joined subeta and took one look at the forums, I would think subeta is in dire conditions. Sure, there are individual niches and groups, etc. but trying to get a general conversation started beyond forum games is an issue. There are boards out there where the last thread on page one is from 2017 and they aren't even subforums of forums. I know subeta tried to fix this with forum boxes but we all saw how that went with games / spam.

I know forums are so 2000 and maybe that's the issue. I don't frequent other virtual pet sites anymore to know if this isn't just a subeta thing, but I don't think more players will solve the bigger issue of lack of community. You would think with a site that focuses on avatars a whole lot that the forums would be more active due to showcasing your avatar, but I stand corrected.

So if more players means more community then sure, I'm all for it, but I just don't see that happening.

Here's my two cents on this subject: I wrote a Bible here, sorry

My account is fairly old, but I only started being actively by 2017, so I still consider myself a newbie in some matters. I migrated from Neopets, which I played for 12 years straight and my experience there was so much worse. I'm a collector; I enjoy getting all those avatars, stamps, cute gallery items, different pets - and in Neopets that was SO stressful. Some things were completely unattainable like the old pose pets, or only possible if you bought hacked accounts or were friends with a few untouchable players. When I left, my I guess I'm still on subeta because the vibes are so different: there are so many things to collect - food! Clothing! Achievements! But I can do it at my own pace, nothing is forever retired. Missed a collection item? It will be back next year! Retired holiday stuff? There's always a random chance to get it. Token shop? Eventually they are back! I'm an adult and the last thing I need is entertainment that feels like an obligation, like it happens with some game apps and their events: "you need to finish this is 2 hours or you'll lose all these rewards!!!" Nty, I don't need anything else that feels like a chore. Also, the community seem really, really, really kind and nice. Luminaire is such a special holiday, with gifts, giveaways, mysterious melody and presents under trees! It does feel comforting, a little like Stardew Valley to me. I guess this is why I keep playing, and maybe investigating the current players' motivation would help in retaining new players.

BUT: well, there are CWs - they are the exception to this availability rule. When I first discovered CWs (tbh I still feel there is a lot I need to learn, a thorough guide would be really handy) I felt discouraged and tried to avoid it altogether. Considering they are one of the biggest CSC 'products', seeing them in the wardrobe but not being able to find them on stores doesn't make them very appealing to the newest users. I understand the high price of CWs is fair, but I agree with Valiska and to me, it makes little sense that some of the most sought-after items on the CSC market are limited to a few copies. Bunshroom also has a fair point imo, though - the fact that CWs aren't available all the time contributes to their popularity and to sales. So maybe a system where they aren't forever retired but aren't forever available, like the monthly collections, could be considered? I believe this would make the Wardrobe (something that usually involves some CSC) more appealing to newbies.

Subeta seems to be a very artistic community, so imo advertising it to artists and engaging with their art (either on site contests and games, I remember Neopets' comics and random contests, they were really fun! - and boosting their comission threads with some sort of spotlight, I don't know, just throwing ideas here) could work. I NEVER visited the art market forums in this time. If this could benefit players' RL work by bringing more commissions or popularity, it seems like something interesting for attracting new players with an artistic profile!

I’m not a super old player (8 years as of August) probably active for around 4 or so of those years. I came from Neopets, but now spend most of my time on Flight Rising. I’m someone who cares about the pets on pet sites and not for CWs. Apologies cause I’m tired and still having my coffee will probably edit when I'm more awake, but I've been wanting to write in my opinions for the past few days x.x

1. Remove Unique Pet Names I think this is something that should be done. Long ago I was against it, but now I’m all for it. My pets are the only thing that keeps me on the site and I would love to work on them again, but the names I want for OCs are taken and yes I could find alternatives (I found an alternative for my cats names, but I’d still prefer to have her original spelling cause she is my precious fur child) but it’s just not the same. Another thing is holding onto pets due to their names alone. Example, I own Eos. I don’t even know what to do with the pet anymore and would like to adopt her out, but what if I want the name again down the road? I’m out of luck, so I'm stuck holding her. I don’t want to hold onto her anymore though. I know others would love to have the name as well, but I want the name as well so she's stuck rotting with me until I decide on something for her. Also with being able to have so many pet slots, a lot of names are taken and will never be free. The only thing that should be unique is the ID alone.

2. Quests I think the Quest system for making SP is outdated and boring. It's just open some new tabs, buy the items, and turn them in. It's not engaging whatsoever. Though it is probably way too late in Subetas life to introduce something new to replace quests due to everyone being used to them and comfy with it.

3. Daily/Weekly Goals Like suggested, I think the site could use daily or weekly goals for all players to collective work on. Maybe “Defeat a certain amount of monsters and everyone gets so and so" or "Recycle this much and receive this for the next week etc". I think the bathhouse was a step in the right direction with a daily incentive with logging in, but it's still not engaging in any way. Just put it as your homepage and well there -shrug-

Why not something with SAI HQ and incorporate them into a weekly goal place? The Gunter plot thing was the only time I ever saw them used so they could be utilized in some way with a weekly goal thing.

4. CWs
   

I'm not really an avatar person, so I don't have much to say in regards to this... but I do feel that something could be put into place where CWs have to have a certain # of public copies or just a certain # of copies in general that can be purchased by all, though this also can cause issues where someone buys them up to resell but you could always put a cap on how many a single individual can purchase. Maybe an auto force all CWs into a shop eliminating privates altogether. Older private gated CWs can just stay as so to prevent angry people.

–shrug-

Edit cause I didn't want to make a new post:

I actually have my own private custom wear submitted on the site so I know about the costs and aware of it and how CWs work ^^;;; . I made it and spent $50 just to submit it myself several years ago sometime after CW were first introduced cause I knew slots would probably never fill -shrug- I just personally didn't comment on CWs much because I stopped caring about them as a whole and I'd rather work on my pets.

If you're gonna make a thread about it, then why not maybe put in a suggestion that we have the ability to send items into the shop after maybe a certain # of years? I regret leaving it as a personal item with only two copies with other people that I don't know floating around and would rather put it in the shop now so others can get it if they want it. This would help others that also made CWs with limited batches years ago with those CWs that only have a few copies around can be brought back. Maybe something like 3 or 5 years, but the item can never be retired again and has to be left in the shop. Also not sure if they've given us this option yet, I assume not, to allow us to update the item art and overlay after a certain number of years. This would probably not happen though as more time would be needed to accept/deny new art on top of accepting and denying new submissions. I'm gonna go have my coffee now x.x

@ Manuh @ tank Some of your comments about CW availability inspired me to create a thread on the CW Discussions forum about availability and batch sizes, if you're interested in checking it out and learning why there are so few copies of most CWs.

RE: Privates I'm getting the idea that a lot of people who don't have a lot of experience with CWs think that most CWs are private items because they're hard to find. If this is the case, I just wanted to say that the vast majority of CWs are not private, just released with a limited batch size (the average is 10-20 copies of an item). To submit CWs to the site, they need to be paid for upfront, and usually a person releasing a CW will take "slots" for that CW, with each person claiming a slot basically agreeing to paying a portion of the submission cost. Essentially, these 10-20 copies often get claimed and paid for before the CW is even on the site itself. That's why it ends up seeming difficult or impossible to buy a lot of CWs - not because these items are being privately horded or denied to the site as a whole. They way the current CW system is set up, users who are willing to put in the time and effort to learn about the CW market/forums and be an active part of the cw community are rewarded with a higher chance of getting CWs they like.

I also want to point out, in case you don't know, that CWs cost a lot of money to create and submit to the site, so it's only fair that the people that spend this money (up to $25 worth of CSC just to submit some items, not including the price to commission it from an artist if needed) want to be able to control how those CWs are distributed.

I like the idea of having some kind of Cash Shop section, or a special shop on the site as a whole, where some CWs can be available as unlimited like the Boutique or other cash shop collections. It would be awesome if CWs could have some increased visibility and availability to site users as a whole in a way that's familiar, like the Cash Shop. However, for any CW makers to be interested in such a thing, I would hope that subeta would offer a steep discount for submission, or some other kind of perk, for allowing their CWs to be included in this special shop.

edit to reply to your edit :P

Sorry I assumed you weren't aware of how it all worked! I have been realizing that a lot of people that aren't active with cws just don't know the whole process, so I wanted to explain. But you already have the gist of it!

My thread was intended as a discussion about why we, as cw releasers, submit lower batch numbers. In your case, you submitted as a single batch of 10 (I assume? I wasn't here right when CWs got introduced), because you felt like slots wouldn't fill. Allowing older items to make a comeback would be one way to re-introduce some rare things like your spear (which is awesome, by the way!) If that's something you want to do, why don't you make a suggestion about it? Currently, it's impossible because of an anti-scamming rule that was put into place a few years back which says that if you state publicly that you'll only submit x copies of an item, you can't go back and release more than that. :/

And nooo, sadly, there's no options for updating old art. How I wish!!!

It's no worries, apologies I didn't have my coffee at the time of posting xD (I shouldn't do anything in life until I have my coffee). Yeah, that was a 10 slot item submission and I had deliberately put only one batch submission (probably won't be allowed to ever make more again but oh well). I deleted most of them, not sure why I even did it now.

It would be nice if we did have that option, at least for items submitted before the rule was put in place and nowhere on the forums where it was publicly stated that the item would only have a certain # of slots to at least prevent it maybe (forum search pls come back). Of course, you have things like threads being constantly edited, but I'm sure they can see old logs, we can see edit dates etc, and most of those CW artists from back then either have new CW shops or no longer play or participate in CWs. I think it'll be fair as long as the item is permanently in the shop and can't be removed.

I'll probably make a thread tomorrow in regards to it and also for updating older CW art as well, maybe a monthly limit of updating one CW to prevent current CW submissions from being stalled or have a minimum of how much is being updated regarding the piece (not allowing small tweaks to the original design, just a refreshment to lineart etc - has to be an actual update).

Hahaha, I totally understand! XD

I don't think I ever did this myself, but back in the early days of CWs I feel like a lot more users were interested in submitting items for their own personal use (maybe as a special TC item, or an item related to an OC), rather than slotting or distributing large numbers of copies. So, we ended up with quite a few really rare items that literally only have 1 or 2 copies on site at all. It would be nice if there were some exceptions for bringing back old items, may after a certain period of time has passed?

I think the scamming rule was put into place because a few people were saying they'd only release let's say 10 of an item, but it turned out to be more popular than they expected so they'd release 20. So I guess there were some people that felt hurt that they thought they were buying a rare exclusive, but it became more common? IDK, I wasn't around for that particular fight. I don't know how staff would be able to revoke that particular rule and allow for more copies of some items, but it deserves some discussion and I look forward to seeing your proposals suggested. ^_^

Myself and (from what I have been reading in this thread) others are not against paying some kind of monthly subscription type fee to help the site. I think using the GA to encompass this would be amazing and I would be excited to see what perks can be added to encourage contributions. If it came down to it and say we had to pay $5 a month for example to gain site access, I would still do it. No one wants to see Subeta die and I think it you were upfront and made an announcement via news that you would have a lot more people backing you then what you expect.

What about players who don't have $5 to spare every month?

Wouldn't the GA Subscription already do the trick for this? I would be hesitant in the extreme to put the entire site behind a paywall, because I think a lot of the userbase would end up leaving the site. But encouraging users to use the current subscription system as a way to support the site (and get GA perks and/or CSC in return), does seem like a good idea!

I find it unlikely that a large number can't afford $5, I doubt it will come to that anyways especially if they offer a subsription type service involving the GA's, I'd pay cash for my GA any day to keep site running. Another thought to do with site access too is maybe tiers could be offered like Tier 1 is $1 and gets you site access and nothing else and then the higher the tier goes the more perks you get.

My suggestion was for if the GA subscriptions don't have the desired effect, Some of keith's point was suggesting that if GA's had added perks and im guessing would likely be made cash only to help support the site then that might be a way to keep things alive as he had suggested a monthly charge system using the GA's to encompass it. Or even if subeta started offering a seperate package of cash only benefits available to users id be fine with that too.

Oh okay, so like an extra subscription beyond the GA subscription that offered different/better perks that can only be purchased with cash. I think there's been some mention about revamping GAs and possibly changing the perks, so that might help attract more subscribers, but I see what you're saying.

Maybe ads? im not most of the time during school because itś not blocked. so most new people right now would be bored highschoolers and maybe the occasional middle schooler.

Based on the “How old are you NOW?” Poll you’re very wrong. Middle schoolers/high schoolers are the minority.

I've been here nearly 15 years and can't afford $5 a month because I'm an old age pensioner. I'd be really upset if I had to quit because I don't have a lot of spare money.

I'd rather GAs stayed as they are and a separate package of cash only benefits was introduced. I can no longer cope with pricing stock by hand so everything just stays unpriced in my shops until they are full and it's worth getting a one week GA for the autopricer.

If the package of cash only benefits was on a month to month basis, people who can't afford $5 every month might be able to afford the occasional package for a month.

i would REALLY hate to see cash-only benefits on subeta. one of the things that makes subeta feel so much more user-friendly than other sites, imo, is the fact that you can ALWAYS get CSC and CSC-related items with sP, and you can always save enough sP over the course of a challenging but not insurmountable timeframe; not only can you buy CSC gift cards with sP, there are even users willing to sell loyalty shop items. it's like they actually care about users and want us to have access to the things we want if we're putting time and effort into the site itself, unlike other sites which just feel like greedy "insert $$$ to get the stuff that is obviously better quality and has far more work put into it!" cash grabs.

i remember being on sites as a teen like neopets and rescreatu that had NO fungibility between regular and premium currency; it made me feel excluded from the "coolest" features, best items, most desirable pets, etc. having strict cash-only options would be super unappealing - especially to younger users who probably don't have their own money, and of course adult users who just can't justify spending certain amounts of money on a game when we have more important things to save it for.

also for the record, just so people are aware: the $51.50 cash-only yearly GA subscription is actually a slightly worse value than buying $50 of CSC, then spending that CSC on a 12-month GA medal. for $1.50 less, you get 6000 CSC (more if it's a bonus weekend), which means you have at least 600 CSC leftover after buying the medal (which is slightly discounted if you're in the last 3 days of an existing GA). greater value for slightly less cash!

(though i need to stop spending for a while, at least until i get job stuff worked out, so i will be a regular ol' non-GA user for the first time in a few years lol.)

I've been a member for 6 years, but mostly inactive for the past few.

1. I find the forums really unwelcoming now. Lots of people have touched on all the reasons for this, rule changes chief among them. For me the big one is the site has been cultivating a culture that I find is really toxic and damaging. Debates and disagreements aren't allowed, unless they're phrased in the most saccharine-sweet manner, which means those of us who tend to be more blunt are SoL. And users who are total assholes or outright trolls get a pass for bad behavior so long as they can add the most cutesy uwu huggles crap to their posts.

So instead of hanging on the Subeta forums like I used to, I go to other sites where I don't have to worry about censoring myself or getting in trouble.

2. Too much gets stuck in development hell. FR has had 1 major project get dropped (adventure mode). Meanwhile dozens of other projects have gotten released (colorwheel expansion, dressing room and scrying changes, coli revamp, now pvp revamp, trade system revamps, ancient breeds, eye types, and on and on). On FR, I'm excited about the upcoming world map revamp, and playing the game feels like I'm investing time and energy into something that will continue to expand and improve.

On Subeta, the "current" wardrobe still doesn't work reliably for me. I was interested in minion battling, but that didn't happen. I was really excited for the cult revamp (guilds were my fav part of Neopets and I'm way into DOM on FR), but that didn't happen at all. Forums still fail to load for me. Searching for old threads inevitably turns up dead links. Subeta is the only site I visit with regular server issues. When I click around the site, many of the 'features' are out of date remnants. And when I start reading lists of all the failed projects it's silly.

3. Lack of mobile support. Subeta's userbase is aging, and adults with jobs are too damn busy to dedicate hours every evening after school to a petsite. At most we get a few minutes here and there on breaks, so mobile support is IMPORTANT.

If Subeta started to charge 5$ just to access the site, the site would tank. Ditto with tiered access to the site. Many users are in the same boat - we have to put bills, food & debt first. What we lack in disposable income, we try to make up for in activity, positive advertising, feedback or suggestions. Currency conversion is also an issue - 5$ is not 5$ globally. It paints an uninviting picture for any international users who want to play. Also makes me feel that having a fun hobby/pasttime on the side to keep you sane is apparently not allowed if you're poor IRL. Which... ain't a good feeling to have. 😬 Even if it was a one-time access fee, I feel that it would turn a lot of people away.

Huge difference between tempting users with optional, but really cool stuff (GA perks) & between locking an entire site (with all of the bugs, glitches, downtime, etc.) behind a monthly fee. People who have money on the side but don't have the time to spare to save up 55m sP monthly for a GA are likely going to spend money to get those perks instead. People who get disappointed in the first month will not be coming back to pay 5$ again. And let me tell you, a lot of people old & new get disappointed once the holiday lag starts up.

tl;dr - revamp GAs/GA perks instead of locking the site down behind a paywall. Paywalls suck & the site wants to keep users instead of pushing them away.

If implementing some cash only features means the site is able to stay online then that is what is important right? If players shoot down every option when keith has clearly said they need to find a way for things to keep running then in the end the site will just die. No one wants that so we need to find a middle ground, Is everyone going to like whatever they do? No. That's part of life. You can't expected to be handed everything on a platter, That's just not feasible. I would 100% support a cash only benefits package seperate from GA's if people are really that worried about not being able to buy one with csc but I would also support it if keith based a monthly charge system around the GA because I want to see subeta continue to thrive.

The pay to play idea was simply something I threw out there as a last ditch way to save the site if the funds still aren't coming in after whatever changes that staff decides to implement involving GA's/a monthly charge system/etc. There is going to be at least a handful or more of people who don't like any of the ideas but if change is needed to keep subeta going then people really need to come together to find a middle ground. I've seen numerous folks say they would donate offsite to a patreon or other fundraiser type thing, If a cash only benefits package were released on here then what is the difference? None.