First of all, it's been mentioned that the bases reflect biological sex, and not gender. So there's that.

Also, there are more to the bases than just boobs or lack thereof.

Females have (of course) the boobies, and the waist is slightly smaller. Males have (of course) no boobies, a wider waist, and the bump in the crotch region.

So Boobs vs No boobs is silly.

Can't we just call them Barbie vs Ken?

No seriously though, 's suggestion is ace. Visual representation is pretty good, except when you're trying to report errors, because we're going to end up going back to calling them male and female.

: Hope you don't mind me adding my two cents on this! I believe the problem with the people that disagreed wasn't that they disagreed per se, but that they made gender out to be a choice and that people were being too sensitive about it and that the OP therefore had no right to dare make a suggestion about gender. That's the way I perceived it at least. I'm non-binary and I definitely did not choose to be 'too sensitive' about it. I also don't think that my being non-binary is ridiculous, as it was rudely called.

People can't help when they get upset about something and yet trans and non-binary people are required to just shut up about it because the world shouldn't care? I can understand people disagreeing and that's fine. But I'm not behind the belittling tone that was taken just because people care about this topic. Hope I'm not coming off as rude, I just wanted to maybe explain why people were saying that as I don't think it really had much to do with the fact they were disagreeing at all, but more the treatment of the OP, their suggestion and the fact that some of what was said in disagreement was very derogatory.

Since when did the term sex begin to refer to gender identity? Why can't we just take it as referring to female = XX = mammary gland development, ovaries, fallopian tubes, vagina, etc.? Male = XY = immature mammary gland development, testes, scrotum, penis? To me, this is what sex means. From a purely biological, unemotional perspective. Nothing about gender identity. Nothing about sexual orientation.

I'm pretty sure the doctor would not care if you were not cis if you had the BRCA1 gene mutation and were biologically female. You'd have an increased chance of developing breast cancer (yes, males with BRCA1 mutation would also have an increased risk, but because their mammary glands are rudimentary, their elevated risk does not mean the same medically as it does in females). End of story. Why can't we be as detached from the term sex?

But yay, I like 's pictorial suggestion. Though I really fear what this is doing to words if we can't communicate with actual words without offending someone. /sigh

I't be nice if that was the way the world worked, but it isn't. People often call trans women 'biological males' and trans men 'biological females' as a way to invalidate their gender identities. When people say 'male' and 'female' they just think of gender, because people consider them to be innately linked. Maybe it won't be that way in the future, but it is that way now. Even 'biological sex' is a spectrum. Maybe do some googling about intersex conditions. They're not as rare as people think, and you'll find that the traits you listed as defining biological sex aren't as clear cut as you believe. Anyway, this isn't meant to be a thread to debate the topic of biological sex/gender so I won't reply on this subject any more cause I don't want to derail the thread too much but I really do think you'll find some interesting things out if you google around.

I'm neither for or against a change. Don't really care, actually, as it doesn't apply to me...but honestly, I think it's fine the way it is now (though I wouldn't say anything if it changes)

You still don't care about the people who are against your suggestion. You basically keep saying, "So you don't like the vagueness of it? There are vague items on site, get over it." and, "You don't like your sex simplified to 'boobs or no boobs'? That's understandable, but I'm upset about this, so it should be changed." You're saying that the VAST majority of humans on the planet need to bend to your will.

This is the problem with a lot of people nowadays; extreme entitlement. Biological sex is almost ALWAYS male or female. Intersex conditions are extremely rare. You DO want to debate biological sex, even though your idea of a debate is "no you're wrong because feels", because you wouldn't have made this topic otherwise.

Use the add-on, for the love of god. You've been given the perfect solution but you won't take it because you're not happy unless everyone caters to you. Seriously, you've given the option to use an add-on (if you don't use Firefox, find something that's the same in your browser, guaranteed there's something unless maybe if you're using IE) that will completely correct the non-issue for you... but that's not good enough? Why? Maybe you should seriously think about why this solution isn't good enough for you and why you're continuing to push for erasing sex for pixel avatars.

Also, you keep saying to others, "Pixel avatars don't have biological sex anyway," so... what are you upset about? You're telling others that their arguments don't make sense because the avatars aren't actually male or female, but the implication that they are is what upsets you.

Yeah, we can tell you get defensive and hurt by ridiculous things, thanks for summing it up. That's exactly what this suggestion is: asking the site to cater to your ridiculous wishes. No, enough. Not enough people in your life have told you "no" or "enough."

I wasn't referring to you, don't worry. See above.

Sorry, I was the one who mentioned being catered to, so I assumed >.<

Yes, and hermaphrodites (false and true biologically speaking), intersex, etc. are still that. Rare. Selecting from two options which represent the majority of how human beings are, biologically speaking, is not being insensitive (especially since we're talking about the avatar base which doesn't even include penises for males lol). It's being simple and accurate.

What you're talking about isn't the problem with sex's definition. It's the problem of some people being insensitive jerks. And I don't think subeta is reinforcing any of that by simply asking you to choose from female or male. You are putting additional meaning to a neutral term used in a completely neutral fashion. If it was choose your gender, I could see the issue. But if it's asking for sex, it's your decision to jump the gun and see misappropriation when there is none. Applying social justice issues to a neutral term used in a neutral way for an avatar base is taking it too far imo.

I can't change your opinion, and that's fine. But I just wanted to let you know that hermaphrodite is considered an offensive term. Intersex is a better word choice, for future reference. (:

I was referring to hermaphrodites from a purely biological aspect as that is how they still teach it in subjects like biology. True vs. pseudohermaphroditism. You know these things need to be labelled from a medical and biological perspective, right? I wouldn't actually call someone a hermaphrodite to their face, but thank you for the lesson.

Help people? People who are that sensitive? Male or female... you identify as male, you pick male. You identify as female, you pick female. Or, if you want your avatar to be dressed as male or female, you pick the one that you want to dress it as. If neither one fits, just pick the one that doesn't really show anything gender-specific (the male avatar).

If you don't believe a word I say because I'm trans and I don't agree with you, well, that's your issue. I'm not going to get worked up over people, including myself, "misgendering" a character. And yeah, I know I make you sick. Believe me, I've seen the idiotic stuff you've said in the past. You've got issues since you're so worked up over an avatar and a character being misgendered and shit.

If I make you so sick, block me. You won't have to see the disgustingly logical things I say anymore. You can live in a bubble of happiness and sunshine where avatars are described as type 1 and type 2 (oh and don't forget about type 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 100, 252...) so that every single possible neo-gender is happy.

I think out of all the suggestions here, that is the best. Cause lets face it, calling it "Boobs vs No Boobs" was just offensive and "Body A and Body B" was too vague. I think a visual representation is a simple solution and could satisfy both parties.

You are seriously such a gosh damned moron. I feel so, so sorry for you. And even more sorry for those that have to deal with you in person. You are not logical. You're an idiot. Stop attempting to speak on here, you risk lowering the IQ's of anyone daring enough to read your posts.

I think everyone should just be quiet and listen to 's suggestion.

- I think we need a moderator in here before this thread goes full-on riot.

is also really great

And 's suggestion is a good one.

With love, A non-binary trans person

So basically this whole thing started because some people, not OP themselves, might get offended. Hypothetically. In theory. Huh.

But yeah is the best option IF there does need to be a change. I personally use a male HA with female-oriented clothes bc I prefer it that way, but whatever floats people's boat

If dudes can get over their dick-less HAs then I think anyone can get over whatever their issues with the bases are.

I agree with say change it and make it solely pictures, but when someone looks up the image url and sees it labeled female and male I can't help but think a fit will be thrown. I suppose that's a battle to fight another time, though, and it's not like it'll be a valid one either. So yeah, I say eliminate as much terminology as you can because this has been dealt with like twice already and the complaints still roll in because every year genders and sexualities and psychological aspects that make people feel more comfortable with themselves grow and grow and diversify and if Subeta continues to use and add and change terminology to accomodate that they won't be able to keep up.