it’s sad that that kind of info has gone missing, but as Emyon found some more info here that literally defines the base edit rule as only applying to facial features? And this is from 2016 I believe, so it’s been four years, and so I find it kind of incredible to see Saint suggesting that this will be changed again to suit, what, some new set of rules? My initial Anger(tm) comes from a relatively arbitrary denial of an item on the grounds of a non existing rule.

I don’t think we’re on different sides here, but most of my frustration stems from the fact that there is no communication coming from staff, like you said, . I feel like we’ve been relatively polite about things, but the side stepping of questions is what is heightening the frustration even more. Some of these things genuinely would only require a yes or no, and some would need more consideration, but we’ve had the issues for ages so....

Thanks for adding your voices to the conversation!

Emyon’s Info in question

Quote by Emyon

@ Saint I&;m sorry for pinging since you&;ve probably gotten a bunch of pings to this already, but this is in reply to your post:</p>
<p>You mentioned that the noodles were denied based on the rule: &quot;Artwork replaces features and/or edits the avatar base&quot;
That rule is nowhere to be found. I looked in the rules page, and in all of the FAQ and guides in the forum. If i missed, please direct us to it.</p>
<p>I&;m guessing you&;re quoting a &quot;denial reason&quot; as you said, which would mean that is something you, as staff, can select for denying an item. It&;s not something we, as users, can see.
I&;ll also guess that that denial reason is there because of the old rule &quot;You may not submit any images that edit the avatar base or replace features in any way. This includes repositioning arms or legs, but also restricts drawing original facial features. You may submit clothing that enhances these features such as makeup that works with existing base eyes or lips.&quot; - Pulled this from the subeta wiki, which is outdated.(that is a link)</p>
<p>That rule has since been updated, as seen here: &quot;At this time, we will still not be accepting user-made mouths/lips, noses, and eyes. The rules for base edits have been rewritten on the CW submission page to reflect that this is the only base edit no longer allowed (as long as the other CW rules are followed, of course).&quot; (that is a link)</p>
<p>if facial features are the only base edit not allowed anymore, then object heads are not against the rules, and the &;denial reason&; you can select should not be used for that.</p>
<p>Further, you have said yourself that base edits are allowed, since that is what the &;body mods&; are. (also a link)
And, &quot;Artwork replaces features and/or edits the avatar base&quot; directly contradicts the official submission category &quot;All base edits&quot;, which shows it&;s an obsolete denial reason and it should be changed. I would suggest replacing it with &quot;Artwork replaces facial features&quot;, which is the actual current rule.

the simple fact that anyone is afraid to speak up due to possible repercussions.... yikes Thanks for adding your voice though!

YEAH, i completely agree and am frustrated by it in pretty much the same way you are.

my only point in bringing it up was that the rules have been essentially gathering dust and not uniformly updated across all areas of the site for...years. i assume at this point that's what's causing the inconsistent denials behind the scenes - the ruleset staff has on the backend is...probably not quite as whole as it used to be or should be, judging by what's going on, and that the information loss has impacted that as well. at least, that's the conclusion i've come to for myself, anyhow, after hearing things via ticket since then & then just experiencing weird denials that myself and others are getting. which is why Emy had to literally dig up these examples/inconsistencies from the ends of the earth where they shouldn't be, instead of just Check The CW Page like it should be.

[edit] basically i was just providing some context, sorry!! didn't mean to upset u wugwiugh ;;

Yeah, the only features that you're allowed to edit when it comes to the head/face are ears and eyebrows. Personally I've not needed it to be re-stated anywhere because I was there when the changes to the rules were made but obviously I get that it's hard for people that are newer to the cw market to know this when it's not written in the official list of rules. As for Saint's lack of responses to questions people are having in this thread she said that she is reading everything but that she can't make longer posts while at work and will be responding once she has the ability to. Also, judging by some of the reactions to what she's said so far (which has mainly been that she wants to consolidate all the rules for everyone's convenience) there is quite a bit of paranoia going on. At least it seems that way to me.

Anyway, I agree that the rules need to be updated, and consolidated in one place. I also agree that it should be allowed to ask conceptual questions through tickets. These are my 2 cents on this and I will now go about my day waves goodbye as she leaves the thread

; )

there have been so many valid points mentioned in this thread, as well as other threads before it. each and every one - with the exception of possibly the least valid - has been completely ignored.

the fact of the matter is that users bust their asses to take part in the cw creation process. we design the items, create or commission the items, create an icon of the items, give that shit a name and a description and hope like hell that our sweet little baby birds will fly once they leave the nest for the first time. we even pay the site to do this. then more people pay the site to get these items. all staff has to do is say go.

creativity is being stunted because someone, somewhere, in some past life, on some plain of existence, decided that body modifications in any form were threatening to a nonexistent market. then they realized hey, this brings us more money! we can embrace this probably! lo and behold, body mods abound. suddenly there's a comment on a news post that says, "technically, body mods aren't necessarily probably maybe somewhat not acceptable." boom, more body mods.

now we're at the same crossroads, just a few pixels higher up on the base.

its like we're holding a carrot on a stick.

I've posted a few times already and so the only things I want to reiterate at this point are:

1. More than one staff member should be addressing this thread. This should not be 100% on Saint's shoulders right now.

2. Staff should not be picking and choosing which issues they want to respond to while ignoring / playing ignorant about others.

3. If the response to "We want clear rules" is honestly going to be given the response portrayal of "I will, but you're going to regret this" then I hope staff is also ready to watch the CW market implode when this gets put forth. (And I will say, this is NOT the first time we've received this sort of response either. We were also given this same response from another staff member and people were so terrified we basically went "Oh I guess we don't need it then...")

Nobody should be keeping silent about their specific experiences and concerns because they're worried about "their status as a releaser".

The more people who air legitimate, honest, specific complaints and grievances, the safer the people who have already posted here will be from whatever retaliation you might be afraid of. And the fact that someone is actually afraid of retaliation isn't a good look for the site or the staffers, either.

Everyone who has ever had an item denied because of a rule that was either officially lifted long ago or hasn't been enforced in years OR a rule that isn't posted anywhere on the site should come to this thread and share their story.

It's important. Let staff and other users see that this thread is full of people who've had the same experience and that we're not all friends with each other!

can't be the only person with a story to tell about a ridiculous denial based on rules that don't actually exist any more.

I can't be the only person with a story to tell about a ridiculous denial based on an unwritten exception to a rule which states that something is explicitly acceptable once certain conditions are met.

can't be the only person who has been forced to edit a CW so that it's unrecognisable as the original item people slotted on because somebody might get creative and use the item in a way that was never intended.

Also, nobody here is objecting to the clarification and codification of the complete rule set governing the submission of CWs.

What some of us are objecting to is the statement that rather than dropping rules that have not been consistently enforced, these rules will be enforced in the future--and that while no previously accepted items will be removed, we will not be allowed to reference these items, even though nothing terrible has happened on site as a result of their existence.

Just so I can support this thread I am gonna post here. just a couple things I want to touch base on.

Rules definitely need to be consolidated in the CW section of the website, as well as where the site rules are kept. Adding an extra link of the CW page shouldn't be hard, and it keeps all the info in regards to CWs cohesive as it is all relative. No more scouring the forums for an obscure post from 2012. No looking through pages upon pages of news posts for a specific update. These all need to be compiled into one place. No more of this ambiguous nonsense. Why were these rules never added to the rule section in the first place to keep it all together? It feels like a lack of diligence on staffs part, but I understand that is also in part to how heavy a workload a one person(?) has. We shouldn't have to skim through pages upon pages here, these should be readily accessible and it just feels like there is lack of care in regards to CWs, even though they are held to the highest standards. Yet site items are able to make it onsite that skate by these very ironclad rules. As much as I love the new SubQ set, if it were a CW submission, the submitter would have been told it needs black lineart. There needs to be consistency and Subeta should be leading by example. We also need an update in the rules, especially in regards to what items are actually allowed onsite. Seeing these examples of what has been accepted vs denied just makes no sense to me. Why was this allowed to happen, once again, no consistency. While what rules are changed are obviously ultimately up to the staff, I think there is a lot of useful user feedback in this thread that NEEDS to be considered/and/or implemented into the rules. This needs to be clear and concise, while also being straight to the point so there aren't any more gray areas. There's still a lot of outdated info spread everywhere, and it certainly would benefit both staff and users greatly for this being priority number 1.

Categories on the submission page need to have a definition of what items it exactly covers. Because my goodness is it confusing to figure out what to submit something under, then it is made harder by lack of definition of categories. Categories like simple jewelry is subjective to the person, what one person (submitter) may view as a simple charm necklace, could be ornate to another (approver). I do like the the visual guide to categories we have on this post (ignore the outdated CSC category prices...). Is it possible to expand upon this by adding a few examples to the categories to give us more of an idea on what kind of items fit what category, and then have this post made into a page for the CW area of the site? I haven't had a category denial yet thankfully (I haven't exactly submitted anything too difficult to categorize though), but I think there can definitely be some changes to be more clear about what items go in what categories.

Also slightly off topic since this isn't about rules, but I don't think pricing items based on size is as clear cut as it seems. We currently have priced categories based on clothing types, I don't think there really is anyway to implement this 'priced by size' without it literally being a spanner in the works. We can't just compartmentalize the categories further by throwing in categories that are priced based on size, or it will just make things even more complicated for submitting. We'd then have to consider things like simplicity of items and complexity, and then categories themselves would probably need to be completely changed. I just see it drawing in way too many other factors than necessary. What we have now works, the problem is affordability as a whole. I am sure there is a solution for making submission of CW's cheaper and therefore making CW prices cheaper as a whole and more accessible for the rest of the community, but I don't think price by size is it unless the system gets completely overhauled.

I don't understand why the site isn't investing in fixing these problems (hire more staff) and making things more consistent and clear. If it is the main source of income that keeps the site afloat, you want to look after the people that invest in it.

Also where are the rest of the staff, so unfair for Saint to be the only one dealing with this shit storm.

Anyway, I'm glad this topic was made and I look forward to seeing what solutions we come to for these problems :)

Oh, I've had my fair share of stupid denials that don't make any sense or aren't actual rules. I just don't have the original denials anymore, or the original art for them. But I'll offer some here based on vague recollection of the denial reasons.

Was originally denied multiple times because the original face on the mannequin was really silly (this face :B ) and that was 'not allowed'.

Was denied because "You cannot make recolors of this item, it will be too difficult." I had to file a ticket, saying I wasn't even planning on making recolors of the item in the first place, but also... what?

The item image was denied for being 'too realistic' and not looking enough like a mannequin / looking too much like a character 'bust'.

Item image, which was not much different than it currently is (I made it bigger / more visible) was denied for not being "Tangible".

Was forced to rework this entire CW because the original hands (which were the exact same style I've drawn here) were too "Realistic" and didn't fit with the "theme" of the HA.

"Unrealistically wrinkled" (It's supposed to look loose and bunched up as it's based off a thrown out doll, and me and the other artist who were working on it had to get special permission to have this allowed.)

I am sure there are more but these are the ones I can remember RN. I just woke up an hour ago.

[edit] Remembered some more;

Could be used as 'Closed eyes'.

Could be used as "Nose or mouth replacement."

I don't know what people are expecting staff other than to say? Saint is literally the only staff member in the CW department. She runs it 100% by herself because the other staff are all working in different areas of the site so sadly, yeah, this all falls on her. You can't ask someone who is a programmer to respond here, just like Saint wouldn't be responding to concerns outside of her department because they don't handle those issues.

LIKE, don't get me wrong i definitely agree with a lot of the points made on this thread and ive had my fair share of silly denials, but I don't think questioning why other staff aren't chiming in is gonna help anything.

CWs are dying.

This is the sentiment I keep hearing over and over again from artists, releasers and customers alike.

People have left and more people will leave if no strides are made in the CW market. People are and have been raising legitimate concerns over the current situation of CWs. There have been countless discussion topics on different suggestion forums for months over possible improvements that could be made on the CWs and yet most of those topics have been met with just silence. There is a lot of desire to see CWs thrive and evolve. People want to keep submitting and buying CWs. People want to spent money. And yet there is this looming shadow over us wondering how long will this last. A lot of the time it feels that we have been kinda left adrift to slowly die despite how much revenue and revenue potential CWs have on site.

A lot of the current CW conversations on and off site are very heavily colored with frustrations and fear. The community feels powerless to voice their concerns and frustrations in the fear of being retaliated against. It is very fatiguing to watch something all of us love slowly waste away.

CWs are a hard world to get into - both as buyers and releasers. The high cost of CWs creates an initial barrier that secludes CWs away from rest of Subeta. The second clear barrier is lack of information. It's scattered all over the forums and sometimes it's very vague or confusing and in some cases not available at all. How to buy a CW? What is forum slotting? How to set up a shop? How to submit something? What is allowed and not allowed? As of now a lot of this information is relayed in user to user conversations. For a big part the CW community itself is the main force guiding and education new people entering the market since the site as of now doesn't offer that support. If you are a new person dipping their toes into CWs for the first time but don't have official guides or friends to turn to for help and questions, will you stay? The forums have gotten a lot slower compared to what they used to be. It's very hard to start building a CW shop from the ground up if you don't already have a pre-existing audience. And for an average user it's nigh impossible to keep submitting CWs in a sustainable way without the help of the forums - the cost of a single batch or DTS is just too high for a single person to carry in most cases. The entry level for new creators is very very high.

The situation is not good, I think all of us can agree on that part. It could be better. We have room to grow. I know there has been more pressing issues with site stability and functionality in the past months but even if change is not happening right now, it would be nice to hear back from the staff and have a conversation instead of us voicing our concerns to deaf ears over and over again.

Concerning rule overhaul: if new rules are set into place has disallow items that have previously been approved, would that make it impossible to submit new recolors for the previously approved but currently rule breaking items? A lot of releasers buy recolors in bulk but due to slow market it takes quite while to get everything on site.

I find it deeply concerning if the direction we would be taking with rule overhaul is backwards instead of forwards.

[Edit] Also echoing some of the previous posters in this thread: the CW categories could use a rework too. Some of the categories are very confusing and there is a lot of overlap. Some items could fit into several categories, some items are hard to fit into any and some items you are forced to submit into a certain category but the price of that category doesn't really fit the item. This also in a way restricts creativity because people don't want to buy or sell items that they are pretty much forced to charge a price for.

Some of the issues raised by the community DO actually effect other staff members though. Things like the CW Database we've been waiting on for years now actually aren't something Saint handles, it's something the programmers handle. (This is just one example, and this is not the only thread that's currently active and pertains to CWs / is also being ignored!)

I also feel strongly that the art department should be able to weigh in on the current rules for CWs as well, as they were (from my understanding) some of the people who helped put them in place in the first place. Saint is ONE person and should not be solely responsible for an entire system built nearly a decade ago, LONG before they were even on staff.

We are hoping to hear from other senior staff members who are responsible for the administration of various aspects of the site. I believe there are people who were responsible for the recruitment of and and I think it's important that they are here to weigh in their opinions, or at least reassure us that there will be some attention paid to our concerns.

A couple to three years ago there was an overhaul of the battle aspect on the site and though is not in charge of how the battle aspect was run she was the one to review and compile the rules. I believe she was also one of the staff members who revised the front page and FAQ to make the site more user-friendly and easier to navigate. I think she is more than capable to compile and update the rules for CWs to share some of the workload for Saint, or has enough decision power to assign some other staff member from the art department to help Saint with the task.

I also believe Amber also has enough power to decide whether or not Subeta can use a collective and voluntary help by the CW userbase to help with the compiling and revising of CW rules and the rework of the pricing categorisation. It is staff members at her level (so or and maybe some others that I don't know of) that we are expecting to hear from.

Yeah, when I found I had to pay a good chunk of CSC to even submit a CW design I backed away. I looked into it because at the time I wanted to earn CSC for potions and pet slots. I'd be better off doing art commissions to earn CSC for my pet goals.

It doesn't help that some CWs are private and others fell out of production due to the creator not being on the site anymore. It's even worse when we aren't allowed to make our own version of a CW that we like.

Got pinged from smoosh. I'm not quite active but I am hesitant to comm/upload things or be active in the first place because CWs were a large part of my activity on site. I've stopped anticipating when new CWs would come out or when my items would be given the green light/denied because it'd take around a week to get a response.

Not only is it demotivating to releasers! As someone who comms artists, who actually draw these wearables in the first place, I can even imagine it being more stressful for them. ESPECIALLY ones who are just getting into the CW community and are willing to draw, but discouraged w/ denials.

I've seen the difference in quality of CWs on-site and wonder why my artist's items face denials while others are allowed. This is especially re: items that look pixelated; not that I'm calling or passing judgment--I really don't care and in fact am happy! that they're on the site because that means yeah, people who WANT to try drawing CWs can get them on-site as well.

It's just, it is too strict to expect OTHER artists and releasers to have the time to wait a week for denials, to fix it, and be denied again when a different item is allowed. It's discouraging and I am worried whoever I want to comm will stick around or if they'll be too drained to draw more.

I understand the quality standards, but please acknowledge the time that people spend on the site--it is something we want to do and are willing to do, and even spending money to do. By being overly strict, especially when these items aren't approved or denied in a timely manner, it lessens interest in being active in the community. Or, as many in this thread are requesting, it would be great to have the rules updated and made clearer.

It really isn't fair to have all this fall on one persons shoulders. Especially knowing that pretty much everyone staffed here also has another full time job on top of this one. Pretty sure someone would only apply for the job in the first place because they, like us, love this site and want to see it succeed. But it is not a great move to dump an ENTIRE department on one persons shoulders and just let them deal with the disgruntled user base alone... Hire more people to help! If a company wants to grow and expand they have to do this or they will stagnate.

That said, can we get a reply from ANYONE ELSE ON STAFF? Do you guys see this? Do you even care? Silence to us implies otherwise. Communication has been a long standing gripe and it needs to be addressed. I love this place, I've legit grown up in this site. But what I don't like is feeling that the actual money I'm spending here is being taken for granted.

At this point, I'm getting the feeling that staff isn't even communicating with each other, leading us to this mixed grab bag of arbitrarily enforced rules and unspoken expectations based on one single person (at the times) opinion. Be it in 2017 or 2020.

Please for the love of all that is subeta, collaborate with each other and take our feedback to heart when you re-tool these old scattered rules for submission.

Also I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that if it was allowed once, ex: head mods, they should be now free game for anyone should they wish to attempt it. I really don't see a reason why not. It has already been established that once a CW is submitted the staff artists are allowed to make official items that resemble it. We aren't taking ideas away from the site, we are only trying to contribute to it in new exciting ways that keep the users interested in playing and involved creatively.

We want to support this site. Help us help you!

I don't release CWs so I don't have much to say about most of the things being brought up here, but as someone who buys them and enjoys playing with all sorts of creative items, I've gotta say some of these rules are just really stupid. We should absolutely be able to make head replacements and facial features. There was that contest a while back where people submitted a bunch of facial CWs and we voted on them and it was just a big disappointment fest because there were so many great face items that deserve to be onsite but we knew they couldn't all win and they'd never be allowed at any other time. Friggin' WHY? Let people release them, let us spend money on them. Why do you not want our money, Subeta? Why are you shooting yourselves in the foot? Why are you needlessly limiting creativity on a site that's all about creativity? I hate arbitrary, unnecessary and downright unconstructive rules like this with the fire of a thousand suns. Whatever reasons may have been given for them, I reject them; all the exceptions that have already been made show they are flimsy and meaningless.

is the staff's sense of control and power more important than the health of the CW market, and in the long run, the sustainability of the site itself? making rules even stricter (as that what sounds like is gonna happen) and disallowing certain things (for no good reason) stifles creativity, therefore eventually driving people away from the whole thing and also taking potential profit for subeta. and in the end that just seems like subeta shooting itself in the foot tbh.

[edit] sjjfnfj basically had the same thoughts as , bless

just coming back to agree w/ Deerest and Atomic. People want to spend money on this, let them! It's no use complaining the funds are low and ignoring ppls feedback on how to get more funds. Allowing more stuff would renovate the market - Disallowing stuff will stifle it, and drive ppl away. Also to people saying "doing this or that would take a lot of time and work and staff is limited" when ppl are volunteering to help, volunteering to write the rules down, make guides, what have you, all staff would have to do is read and approve it - but those volunteers never get an answer? Not even to say why that wouldn't work or something? We're here because we like this site. I've been here for 12 years. We don't want to see it die because of low funds - let the community help.

oookay, gotcha gotcha! i was genuinely wondering cause admittedly i did a quick skim of the thread-- i haven't had the time to sit down and properly read every single post yet so i was like "?__? but saint IS the only one working with cws" which, like, really tremendously sucks for her (like trust me saint is one of my best friends LOL ive known her forever and wanna coddle her and help out where i can but im sure so does every one with this cw issue!)

once i read more tho i'd like to come back with a better formulation of my 2 cents since i do agree with a lot of what's being said

The issues brought up in this thread had been discussed, in one way or another, many times by many different users. I'm glad to see that intends to overhaul the rules and bring more clarity to the CW submission/acceptance process. I will be combing this thread more thoroughly in the next few days and adding pertinent suggestions to my already-massive thread The BIG List of CW Improvement Suggestions - Discuss + Add More!

Note: Everyone in this thread is welcome to go over to the suggestions topic to add and/or discuss specific suggestions regarding how CWs are handled on site.

You might be interested in adding to the discussion linked above.

As for this particular discussion, I fully agree that the way that CWs are accepted is unacceptably inconsistent, and confusing. The person or persons (if subeta should choose to hire another staff member) handling the queue should not be holding CW artists to a separate set of standards than what are publicly available/visible. I also feel that content rules should be heavily edited - like body mod restrictions, most content restrictions for CWs have gradually been lifted or ignored over the last few years, so the occasional enforcement of those rules has a bitter edge. I would support moving to a simpler set of rules, mostly those related to the quality or style of the artwork submitted, rather than what the artwork depicts. CWs seem to be a large part of subeta's income, so it makes sense to relax some outdated rules in favor of invigorating the market. The rules for pet overlays, for example, are extremely straight forward, and that seems to work fine.

I would also echo many users' sentiments about the unfairness of holding CW artists to different/higher standards than site artists. Site artists have a variety of acceptable styles, some of which would be flatly denied if attempted as a CW. If a site artist is allowed to do X, a CW artist should be allowed also. I can understand a flat rejection of some things, like eyes/mouths/noses because those require a specific style and placement to work with other site items (and, I suppose, allow for a desirable niche of profitable items that users can ONLY buy from the site itself, which is also important).

Thank you for all the work you do, I am sure handling this all on your own is overwhelming at times. I'm glad to see that you'll be updating and clarifying rules moving forward, and hope that you will take the time to review not only subeta's official stances on rules, but also user input. I would love to see a draft version of your new vision for CWs be released publicly for review and discussion, similar to how the new FAQ was handled a couple of years ago.

Here are some links that might be helpful for you to reference or give you a place to start. Note: the official rules should be edited or completely removed/replaced and unpinned. New users are still trying to refer to these when they haven't been updated in literal years. Official rules should be clearly visible on the CW submission page. Users shouldn't have to hunt for this info.

Outdated Official Rules/Guides: [topic not found]

The Official Illustrated Guide to CW Denials

[topic not found]

Drawing Subeta Style - A Tutorial Video Type Thing

User-Made Guides

☀ CW Introduction and where to start! ☀

Updated New Buyers Guide to CWs

☀ CW Denial / Help Thread! ☀

☆ Large HA Templates Download || ▷ Includes B1-10, B18-21 ◁

Some Recent-ish User Suggestion/Discussion Threads

The BIG List of CW Improvement Suggestions - Discuss + Add More!

2020 EDITION: new CW features & ideas

Transformable CWs

New CW features (brainstorm + ideas!)

CWs and the "illusion of closed eyes" rule.

CW Lips and Eyes

Thanking you for the ping! I'm on semi-hiatus right now and hadn't seen any of this. :O