As most people who read the news comments will be aware, literally every pet revamp has at least one person who's upset about losing the existing pet art. Frequently someone then suggests 'get an overlay', unfortunately that's not an option unless you alter the art.

Also, as someone that does overlay edits and on occasion 'fixes' (my own perceived) issues with anatomy etc. in official art, I've considered making tweaked, 'improved'/updated and more generic overlay edits (angelic pets with common colours, experiments in colour fill potion colours etc.) available for anyone to use. But then people could only use the image replacement code on their pet profile, and not be able to submit them as custom overlays.

The problem here would be these two custom overlay rules:

• No unaltered official Subeta artwork.
• Each image must be unique - two users cannot upload the same overlay.

This obviously makes it impossible to either: 1. use custom overlays to revert to an older version of official pet art; or 2. use overlays that have been provided free to use for the whole community.

I'd guess these rules are to stop art theft, 'faking' pet colours, possibly avoiding hosting duplicate image or maybe even some back-end logistics linking specific images to a certain account? Although other rules already seem to cover theft and misrepresentations at least, so if anyone knows the actual reason for these rules it'd be interesting to hear.

My suggestions would be to either: [box=#eeffee]Add the following rules for non-unique overlays:

• Only outdated official art may be submitted unaltered.
• You must state that you are submitting non-unique art.
• You must have explicit permission to submit the overlay as non-unique art.

• Artist credited must be a Subeta user.
• Any non-unique art must have a source available on Subeta. (forum thread, pet page, forum group etc.)

• The ability to select any previously available official pet art from an on-site hosted gallery/selection. (maybe for a slightly lower price? maybe listed as 'vintage' rather than 'custom' on pet pages?)
• Similarly - a staff approved gallery/selection of user submitted overlays, which would be freely available for anyone to select as their custom overlay (instead of uploading their own image as usual).
• NEW - User custom overlay shops, would work in a similar way to the 'direct to shop' (i.e. unlimited and permanently available) custom wearable system, but allow users to sell overlay art/purchase overlays which would be added directly to their custom pet images bucket. (more details in post below, shortcut > click here)

I think I had a fairly good go at considering pros/cons, but translating thoughts into words is really not my strong suit (to put it mildly), so if anyone else has suggestions I'm more than happy to add them. That said, being consistently active online is also not a strength, so if I drop off the face of the earth please feel free to run with this idea if it interests you.

[edit]

• 24/07/21 - Added [userid=124125]'s point that easy to obtain 'vintage' pet art could put people off giving new art a chance.
• 01/08/21 - Included 'custom overlay shop' idea in main suggestion (vs tagged on at end).
• 04/08/21 - Added image rights issue 'con' regarding hypothetical custom overlay shops.
• 04/08/21 - Added possible rule suggestion/restriction that artists credited for non-unique art must be Subeta users and the image must have a source on Subeta.
• 04/08/21 - Clarified wording regarding overlay availability and purchase outcome for custom overlay shop suggestion.

One con you didn't mention is the psychology of change. If I get a pet I love and it looks a certain way, I generally like how it looks, warts and all! If you change it on me, even a "good" change, I'm just not going to like it - its not that thing I love anymore because its changed. Given a little time, though, I may not only accept the change, but come to love it just as much as I loved the original.

As a matter of fact, that's pretty much how its gone with every pet I've owned and had revamped, with a single exception. If you make it too easy to revert back to the original or "vintage" art, people will jump to it and never give themselves a chance to appreciate the new art. And in general, people should be using the new art, otherwise why bother spending time and resources on updating the art in the first place?

Yes, there will be people who simply can't stand the new art - I've been there and ended up changing my revamped pet to a new species because I hated the revamp so much. But if you make it at least some kind of challenge to "revert" to the old art, it gives time for the owner to come to grips with the change and maybe decide its better after all.

This slightly perplexes me since a staff member has recently made it seem like you're allowed to upload unaltered OLD official art as a custom overlay.

Custom pet overlays and it was brought back up again here Overlay Question

There needs to be a more clear stance on this.

- You make a good point, I'd not considered that as it's never been something that's affected me. An unexpected change/revamp could very well put some people off in a knee jerk fashion and having an 'out' may result in them never give the new art a chance. Though as you say, even you (who sounds like you usually come to like the new art) have ended up switching colours/species, so it seems like a valid option to give people.

I'm coming more from the perspective of usually liking the new art but being unable to ignore some small aspect of it, usually wonky anatomy or perspective, but often a feeling of having 'watered down' the pet's characteristics (I'm not trying to blame the artists here, they're hamstrung by trying to update art without really changing it). It might be specifically because it's I'm very picky about in my own art, but there's no way I can constantly view those images without my eye being drawn to it, limiting my enjoyment of the art and putting me off using it.

- Now you mention it I do remember seeing that first topic and thinking it seemed very odd. It would definitely be helpful to have clarification on the issue.

Oh I do think its a good option to have, just don't think the process should be too easy :).

@/Lypsyl - I get you, and for the most part agree. I suppose it comes down to whether the 500csc it'd cost would be enough to get people to give the new art a chance.

[edit]Spelling/grammar train-wreck, move along.

i actually really like this idea! it wouldn't even necessarily have to be related to custom overlays, could just be a sort of 'vintage potion' that lets you change your pet into an older version of that colour/species combo and the colour being listed as vintage would be really cute too imo!

- Unfortunately this seems to have been shot down a few times in the past, judging by older topics.

The main sticking points tend to be that a lot of pets have had more than 1 revamp (I'm partial to the very first Paralix for example, 2[?] revamps back) and that the old art 'reflects poorly on the site'. So unless it worked differently to a straight up potion (unless you could have a transformable item, with a version of the potion per revamp), it might be hard to implement as it's probably need additional coding.

I'd love to just see them allowed as custom overlays, as this would require zero coding effort.

Hard no to officializing old art again. Revamps happen for a reason.

I like the idea of it being referred to as vintage without being tied to a potion. Having a separate page that allows you to pick from the revamps available in the current pets combo and slapping like a 250 CSC charge seems fair to me. Acts like a custom in the sense of displaying everywhere but is denoted as vintage is more fair since this would be old art without tweaks. You want to tweak an old revamp, then it is a custom and is 500 CSC.

I like that idea and even like the "Bob the Vintage Angel Warador" idea.

However, the word "vintage" sounds too cool and may work against the site's goal to have more updated art, because people would want the "vintage" title just for its sake.

This may be a weird objection, but people are weird sometimes.

I'd love to see this in some form. I'm not overly picky about which option, I just think it would be nice to have an option.

Yeah that is how I would imagine it would be vintage then the combo it normally follows. With it being vintage though they can't make additional edits. So like in 's redlines since it is still altered official art it would be a custom overlay and thus the normal 500.

- That's pretty much how I was imagining it, although are you personally thinking of it being like the custom pet images page (where once you 'buy' it you'll always have access to it) or more of a potion/one off thing (where you'd have to pay again if you wanted to apply it to a new pet, or had a change of mind)? Because if it was a one off, 250csc puts it at the same price as a blacklight potion, which maybe seems a little pricey to revert to 'old' art.

- I can definitely see this being a 'thing' but really can't think of a better option. 'Retro' sounds just as appealing and anything along the lines of 'outdated' sounds too negative.

- First of all, love it. Second, you're right (not that my blancmange brain has ever actually put that into words), I have a fair few opinions on things I can/could nick-pick regarding pet art (especially revamps) but I do get where the artists are coming from and recognise my niggles are not going to be the same as everyone else's'. Whhhich is why I think it'd be great for multiple people to be able to use the same overlay, if someone has already 'fixed' an overlay why not let other people with similar annoyances benefit from that, especially if they may not be artistically inclined themselves.

On a similar vein, I added a new suggestion of custom overlay shops (think direct to shop CWs). User art wouldn't be so constrained by having to match the original art or style guides; images like your take on the Angelic Charlie and user redlines in revamp news comments show that the extra freedom, and often peer input, frequently results in (in my opinion) a more pleasing piece of art. I'd personally love to have the option to buy 'standard' pets redrawn in other styles.

I don't want to put you on the spot, but as someone with a thriving overlay thread/shop, if you'd be willing/have the time to offer your opinion on the idea of official custom overlay shops it'd be much appreciated and interesting to hear.

Ah, so regarding my redlines, the Paralix was because the news post asked for feedback and thoughts, so it was a case of what better way to show what my issues were. The Charlie was the only time I’ve been actually asked to redline because someone was dissatisfied with an update.

As for my shop, I think there are mostly two types of requests. One is someone wants me to draw the Subeta pet to be more like their character. The character IS a Charlie, for instance. So they want the character posed and colored in a way that’s reflective of their individual personality. The other type is where the Subeta pet is an approximation or a stand in for what their character really is. In these cases the pet may be an Ontra but they want the art to be an actual otter or some other animal that an Ontra is sort of like. Or their pet may be a human, and while they use a Wyllop to symbolize the character on site they want the art to be of a rat. And then there’s ‘I have this design, can you draw me art of it?’ and people who want a cooler image for their battle pet too.

That’s a lot of words to say I’m not sure there’s a lot of market for a CW-style shop for overlays. It may just be because of the way Subeta art and overlays work, but people come to me because they want art made just for them of their character specifically.

‘Fixed’ comes off kind of like ‘Here, I fixed that for you’ sort of Internet meanness. And sometimes that leads to people becoming super upset over their work being redlined.

More like the custom overlays page but now I can see how there would be issues if it was like just unlocked. What if the user changes the pet color or species? Then it shouldn't have the vintage designation and the overlay should be removed. So unless there was a built in warning that any color or species change on a vintage will remove its vintage designation and overlay. But also if a person wants multiple of one species and color how custom overlays work is it applies to just one pet.

- Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed answer, it's always beneficial to hear other people's takes. I definitely don't see custom overlay shops replacing the sort of fully customised overlays that represent individual characters, in that case contacting an artist directly seems like the much better option. The spoiler below explains more what I was considering, if you're interested.

(Apologies in advance for my excessive use of formatting, it's easier for my dyslexic brain to reference).

- Yeah, now you bring it up, a 'vintage' tag would definitely need some sort of coding check to make sure the correct colour/species combo matched. If that was disregarded it shouldn't be too difficult to just have users pay for instances of old pet art? Like if you wanted two pets to be 'vintage' common Kumos you'd need to buy it twice, as each image could only be assigned once, like a standard custom overlay.

The only other option could be something cheaper and one off, which would be cleared if you changed the species and/or colour. Maybe the Bathhouse, 'wash the years away' or something? But then it's veering more into an official 'old pet art' colour, rather than a variant of custom overlays.

Figuring out tone from text is a challenge for everyone, and because I’ve seen some nuclear meltdowns over redlines I try to… well, treat them delicately. I’m sure the Subeta artists are professional and only complain about me in Slack if at all :P

Being able to revert to old versions might fly, and so might some edits like transparency or removing flowers from Glade pets, but stuff like sweetydead and aurora would likely be far harder sells to staff. I’m just not sure they’d allow users to introduce their own colors like that without being able to manage quality control and consistency directly. Filling in color holes would probably not be something they’d allow users to do outside of full on customs either. What you’re hoping to get is probably way beyond what they’re likely to give.

- I'm not sure if either I'm not explaining the concept well, misunderstanding you, or maybe just being a bit naive (or quite possibly all of the above).

I suppose I'm coming from the angle that none of the ideas I suggested (in terms of unofficial colours etc.) would be disallowed under current custom overlay rules. I filed a ticket (admittedly years ago) about whether I could theoretically have a reborn custom overlay on a sun pet, if there was no official art yet, and was given the OK; I'm also 99% sure I've seen a sweetydead Harvester overlay edit on site.

Am I right in assuming you're thinking the rules wouldn't be the same for overlays being sold in a hypothetical custom overlay shop, because maybe they'd now be owned by Subeta in the same way CWs are and therefore more 'official' and subject to different standards?

If so, until now I'd completely forgotten to factor in any possible difference in who owns the rights to any images, and was just thinking it could be a slick way to let people supply and buy more 'mass appeal' (for want of a better word) overlay art. Pretty much just - artist pays to upload overlay to their shop, user can buy overlay from shop (say 500csc base price + adjustable artist profit), overlay is then added to user's custom images selection just like any other custom.

Potential image ownership rights issues could definitely complicate things to say the least.