The primary goal is to make speed more useful, while the secondary goal is to make weapons and scrolls less overpowered and encourage the retention of lower tier weapons during battle.

I believe that the critical hit system adds too much luck and not a whole lot of strategy and incentive to train speed. So I'm thinking what if critical hits are scrapped and replaced by a stamina system instead? Also, I believe those weapons that have high combined attack, defend, heal, and blessing/curse is being relied too much upon at higher tiers and is making the endgame boil down to a handful of these weapons.

Hence, I began thinking about how to deal with fixing both of these issues at once, and I came up with the stamina and weapons usage proposal.

Stamina Your pet's stamina is determined by its speed. 1000 speed = 1000 stamina. Simple

For each weapon and scroll, you can either choose to attack or defend with it.

1. Attack with the weapon or scroll Will only use the weapon's or scroll's attack stats. Curses can activate.

2. Defend with the weapon or scroll Will only use the weapon's or scroll's defense stats including healing. Blessings can activate.

Stamina Usage and Regeneration Scrolls are magic, and doesn't use stamina. You get to select 1 scroll per turn. You get to select 2 weapons per turn. Each weapon has 2 choices: attack or defend.

1. Attack with the weapon Attacking with higher tier weapons will drain your stamina more. These weapons usually do stronger attacks, and they shouldn't be cheap. This also makes lower tier weapons more strategically relevant to lower your stamina usage.

Stamina usage per weapon = Weapon's tier ^ 2 For example, Tier 1 weapon use 1 stamina, Tier 10 weapon use 10 * 10 = 100 stamina

2. Defend with the weapon Defending with a weapon will regenerate the same stamina.

Stamina regeneration per weapon = Pet's tier ^ 2

What other changes should be there? Firstly, I believe the weapon slots should be increased from 8 to 10 to take advantage of a broader strategy with this instead selecting the same 2 weapons repeatedly.

Secondly, the opponents need to be reworked. The harder opponents more extensively, while the easy ones not as much. For example, an extremely hard challenger with 10 speed wouldn't make much sense anymore because they can't attack. Also, the challengers weapons will have to be marked by tiers if they haven't already, and the tiers selected accordingly.

Like it? Hate it? Comments? Any questions? Share it with everyone below so we know, and if possible why!

Or scrap speed and make a "Fashion" stat, and the higher it gets, the more fashionable your pet can get. There would be tiers, and everyone would start at "emo" and pets would then crawl up from there until they reach the final level, "hipster" at which point they could defeat opponents from simply commenting on how bad they are dressed

Quoting myself from back on 3/14/2014 about speed: For speed, in addition to linking it to mod/blessing/curse activation rate, we started kicking around the idea of linking it to spells. Basically, making it so you could have different builds like in many RPGs. Caster/Wizard type builds with high speed could cast high level spells often, less speedy Warrior builds would have a wait time before they could cast high level spells and the rest of the time cast mid-level spells, Tank build might decide to go super low speed and only rarely use high level spell and stick casting weaker lower level spells most of the time. Again, we were planning to let people restat pets if a change that big was made. But this would add more complexity to the BC and there are already many layers for people to learn/understand...

Pulling that old chestnut out again.

Keith just posted in another thread he thinks the BC is too complex already. So I think any ideas like this are dead on arrival for that alone. And oh yeah, they would take coding. You know the thing there's a multi-year line already for. Yeah....

how about this.

SPEED determines the how quickly the next page loads. brb everyone will have high speed.

on a more serious note, keith said BC was too complicating already? notsherriffsrs

http://subeta.net/forums.php/read/824957/Raise-the-Stat-Cap

Like super serious to the max, lol :P
The bold was part of the original quote. Link posted if you want to see the context it was in. But its a sentiment he has stated before about the BC.

Very interesting responses... O_o

Well, I hope at least this raises some awareness of the speed question instead of getting buried in battle chat. My intention is to make speed more useful (for pets of existing builds), but some probably won't miss it lol. No offense taken at the humorous replies.

It's a thought experiment, and I know it's more than likely to not get adopted. If by miracle, I'd probably be bald then. But I was hoping to generate some thought about how to make things more interesting for battling, because when it's all about the cap and how certain builds (and not speed) are so much better than others I kind of zone out from the battle scene.

While I do think it's a pretty cool, clever idea and it could really make things interesting and possibly solve some problems, I don't think its right for the BC. If we're going to go that much into an overhaul, then I think it needs to go even further and completely redo everything from the top-down and then ground-up.

, we're trying to make speed USEFUL not give more to complain about for people who erroneously trained it already.

Don't make me regret sending speed booster sellers away from my thread XD.

Unfortunately, this late in the game, removing and replacing a stat with something entirely different would take a long time to structure and code.

Also, wouldn't it require weapons to be re-stated again? We have as many pure attackers as there are pure blockers. So if I used Frost Thorn, I'd only get to choose the attack option, assuming that the chance to freeze would also be part of the attack.

And if there are any pure attack weapons w/ blessings, sure, you could defend for only the blessing, but you'll have little to no effective protection from your opponent.

battling should be totally removed and turn into beauty contests

is right.

I agree, my thought experiment isn't the simplest to do. It does use some existing things like tiers and weapons stats (although there's obviously would need to be some re-stat because some things will be over/underpowered). And I admit I haven't thought about freeze as attack, defense, or both. Think it's unworkable or don't support it? That's fine. I'm looking to discuss about speed.

Some battlers have been vocal lately about speed not being useful, and it should be avoided or scrapped. I don't find it compelling to train as much as other stats either. There's not much strategy speed provides, and the harder opponents speed jump massively each win, quickly overtakeing your pet and just crit crit crit hit. What if increasing number of battlers skew pet builds away from speed, resulting in less diverse builds? That's a for better or worse discussion on its own.

I'm in for beauty contests as long as we can put makeup on your pets, do hair, nail polish, body paint, tattoos, and body piercings. No clothing please :P I want Drakan to be a second rate Lady Gaga, and rank "You are killer!" :D

I definitly support the make up idea, maybe we could even use make up as theoretical weapons as they increase our pet's beauty and therefore, coolness levels and social status. I can't wait for programmers to sign on this idea and get it rolling.

I'm not in favour of this beauty contest idea at all, I mean most of you obviously have already planned out your pet builds for this, but mines a fricken graveyard bhakoru. There's no way this would be fair for those of us who had no inclination that this was going to happen!!! The only way I'd agree to this is if we used our pet's minions as the fashion model and our pet was just the designer. Obviously I'd be at the top right away because my pet's minion is naturally beautiful.

So let's talk 'bout it speed then! ^^

I'm not sure how consistent the speed stat is with blessings/curses/freezing/stealing/etc., but those aspects, imho, should be tied to the speed stat in some way.

In Pokemon, Speed determines who gets the first strike, which can often make or break a battle, especially depending if you get a critical hit. If I put my fire-type 'mon out on the field against a water-type, it's risky since water beats fire; but if I get to make the first move, I could probably get lucky and faint the opponent. There's still the risk that my first move won't do the job, and I could easily have my 'mon faint as a result of that risk. But that's what makes it fun, knowing your weaknesses, but still taking the risk anyways because you may just get lucky. ;)

Here on Subeta, the text definitely indicates this notion, but it's currently useless. It'd be different if battles processed to reflect this.

I'm not saying turn battles into a flash game like Neo. But something more along the lines of what Pokemon battles are like. The minion battles is a good starting place and shows what's capable of being implemented into the main battle system.

A major difference between this and Pokemon's battle system is that both sides make their move nearly simultaneously here, in contrast to each Pokemon moving their move individually. Also Pokemon moves are usually distinctively offensive or buff/debuff. Many of the weapons and scrolls we have do both.

Our battle system limits the options that speed can do here, and so far speed is used to increase the chance of something like blessings or critical hits. The risks are mainly being critical hit and not having certain blessings or curses activate. But then with both games you can try again and see if you get lucky.

Stamina can be adopted in a simultaneous move battle, but recoding is considered too much work. Stamina is not actually speed per se, as different games differ in what they mean and actually do. But I think it can be related to speed.

The major problem with speed is that the second it becomes lower than your opponents, whether by 1 point or 10k points, it's basically useless, weapon special effect activations aside. Yes there is still some chance to crit your opponent, but most of the time it matters more that your opponent can or can't crit you. At least for me even with 5.5k def and just under 7.5k hp, the major threat when getting multiple wins on big opponents is the OHKO from a crit. Perhaps if crits multiplier scaled with a % difference in speed rather than 8001 speed always hits double damage on 8k speed when critting. Otherwise the only seriously practical build with speed in it, is a totally speed centric build that stops precisely 1 point above whatever speed you need to crit whatever opponent you want to beat scaled to how many wins you want. But then if an opponent with higher speed but less stats overall is released, your build could very well be literally worthless against that opponent to get whatever win threshold you want, even though in theory it's an easier opponent, because you necessarily neglected some other stat/combination of stats to get high speed. Having weapon special effect activations completely tied to speed would be best as well. If speed is truly meant to be useful in a practical build, it needs to have an actual use lol. If I had an 8k speed build that neglected other things, but also meant I could count on trident's blessing and curse being up for say something like 1/5 turns, it would be a bit more viable, even against opponents with over 8k speed. Obviously blessings like from oracles staff would need to be tuned especially precisely or it would be far OP, but still it would have to literally apply to every blessing/curse/freezing/stealing chanced weapon, even weapons with rare hits like pobow kwand me etc. The scaling would have to be noticeable and desirable but not game breaking or overpowered of course. Then we might see some diversity in actual viable builds :D

With the stat cap in addition to what you mentioned some people would think think why would they would train above 3k speed (to get the highest rate of curse/blessing activation) or 3.7k speed (for Prodigy). Or why would they train speed at all, if it's better to invest those precious limited stats into other attributes instead such as strength or HP.

The battle admins are considering another approach to making speed more desirable: Making weapons that do better the more speed you have. However, unless the weapons are widespread and convincingly beneficial, the adoption will be slow. The slow pace of change isn't helping it.

And in Pokemon, I like to keep Quick Attack in the move set earlier in the game so I can use that secondly to get two hits before the enemy makes a move :)

Yeah...and i don't think Subeta's gonna try to engineer something to resemble a Pokemon battle. It'd be kinda cool, seeing the attack text just appear one-by-one and watch the HP bars go nuts. :p

As for making weapons do better things with higher speed, then not only would newer weapons have to reflect this notion, they would have to consider going through a lot of preexisting ones and change them to the system as well. It would be slow-going...but it's achievable.

I think all of my 'mons no longer have QA as one of their moves, but you're right, it is pretty useful. Being guaranteed to go first is always awesome. :p

But my idea is to make speed constantly better the higher it is, rather than the best benefit stopping at 30% it would get some small bit better with every single point of speed, scalign somewhat like how DPI and BPI do with strength and defense respectively. And scaling both critical hits and curses/blessings/rare hits/chance freeze/stealing etc. Rather than just blatantly making speed the best alternative or worst alternative it would make everything viable and you could choose to your own preference.

Oh I see I missed responding to the bottom part, opps. How could speed scale like DPI and BPI though? Could you give an example?

About the increased blessing and curses, it's an interesting idea, although speedy pets might have a more difficult battle for the toughest challengers if those are disabled.

I explained it in my other post, crits wouldnt automatically do 2x damage so that speed is more than simply an off switch for crit chance.