Recently I've been returning to Subeta after a lot of personal growth and I've found a large number of items that are very racist, such as the Gypsy Outfit (if the slur in the name or the stereotypical depiction wasn't bad enough, the description is just downright insulting) and Iltallo the Gypsy.

[item2=Gypsy Outfit]

These items and NPCs are highly racist and insulting to Roma people. The word "gypsy" is a slur much like the n-word is a slur for black people and the racial stereotypes involved are disgusting. It's really concerning to me that it has taken this long for the issue to be addressed. I submitted a ticket about the Gypsy Outfit item on September 17th and assured me she would refer it to the "higher ups", but I've seen nothing addressing my complaint regarding the Gypsy Outfit nor anything else about the other racist depictions in this website.

Please do something to fix this.

YES PLEASE!!!!!!

what would you change the name into?

Honestly I'd prefer just entirely removing the item from the website. Regardless of what it's called it fits the stereotype enough to be recognized as a stereotypical "gypsy outfit". But the item has also been around for a long time and removing the item will undoubtedly cause more trouble than the staff will deem worthy.

Even renaming it something like "Tattered Garb" or something simple like that would be more adequate than "Gypsy Outfit".

I think the NPC should also have his name shortened to just "Iltallo" or be given a name other than "the gypsy" to describe the culture in which he is from.

Fully agree with this, it has bothered me for a while. As for replacements, I don't think terms with real-world racial undertones should be on Subeta at all. They need to be converted to a subeta equivalent, sort of like how tribute CW's are recommended to have changes fitting the subeta universe. What's the point of having this rich and interesting world if we're just going to take elements/terms from existing real world cultures, especially offensive ones? Anyway, I'd love to see this addressed.

ok, here goes...

honestly i've seen a lot of comments about certain aspects of subeta that offend people, to me is not a problem at all, most of these "issues" people complain about are sarcasm from the artists or the people who made the descriptions or texts around the site, i think they are meant to be taken as jokes, if you save you have had a lot of personal growth you should understand, instead of taking it as a social cause to erradicate "racism" in this VIRTUAL world.... i don't know if some user who consider themself an actually gypsy or from the gypsy culture would take it as an insult... black people take as a joke the n-word, perhaps gypsy people take is as a joke too... i don't think this is racism or cyberbullying (which is bullshit btw)

there are a ton of tv programs from the gypsy culture where they refer to them and to each other as gypsies... and the don't get offended...

i think it's easier to ignore some bunch of pixels from a website than to create a revolution about it.

but perhaps, to avoid hurting feelings they could change the description of the item, perhaps get rid of the tacky cloths statement.

Exactly what I was thinking. It's massively unnecessary to have racist items on Subeta, and I feel like because racism against Roma people isn't a widely addressed social issue in America, the staff is under the impression that these depictions are acceptable.

I've never understood why Iltallo and what's-her-name were referred to as Gypsies - it really doesn't make any sense and could easily be changed. I mean, they live on a different planet, I always assumed they were aliens. Sexy aliens.

The items are a different matter. Some items on Subeta will offend people - I find all the "fetus" items tasteless and would rather that they be changed into something else, but it isn't going to happen. The Gypsy Trunk was in the Cash Shop - those items certainly aren't going to be deleted or changed in any way. Perhaps they could be renamed, however.

I'm not familiar with any of these tv programs from "gypsy" culture where they refer to them and each other as "gypsies". Would you like to give me some examples?

And even so, that doesn't make it acceptable for our non-Roma staff members to exploit from the racism. The n-word is commonly used among black culture to refer to each other in a positive light. That doesn't mean people of higher privilege should have the right to use the oppressive term.

I don't know where "cyberbullying" came from, either. You were the only person who said anything about cyberbullying.

This is 2014. If this world were truly a "virtual world" that is separate from reality, the word gypsy wouldn't exist, nor would the English language or many other concepts in this website. As it stands, "virtual realities" are a reflection of real-world concepts, and thus real-world racism should not be a threat to users.

This isn't about "hurt feelings". This is about people casually getting away with racism and making it socially acceptable and permissible to behave in racist ways when these cultures are frequently marginalized and attacked, often using these words.

If you'd like or if you have any other questions I'd be more than happy to speak with you in private and refer you to other resources explaining why knowing more about privilege and about oppressive slurs is important.

(Really though, I would like to know about where you're getting your facts as far as these tv programmes from "Gypsy culture" are concerned.)

I agree with your statement, which is why I didn't request for the removal of the items. As much as that, in my opinion, would be an ideal solution to the problem, it's an unrealistic demand. I'm hoping some renaming or some reconsideration into these concepts can be addressed.

Gypsies are a nomadic people, that is one of many real terms for them. Gypsy is also slang for theater performers. What it all boils down to it; it's only a slur if you use it as one. There sooooo many words that are both slurs and proper words. I really don't see the harm in the word 'gypsy', but then again, I don't over think little things on a virtual pet site.

Like okay I agree maybe the dress' description could be changed to be not insulting, but then where does it stop? Do we start changing all the offensive items so they are PC? All I can say is either deal with it privately with staff and hope for a resolve, or ignore it. Bad things exists and none of it is going away. Not saying it's okay, but if you jump on every little indiscretion, you're gonna get pretty damn tired.

Not that Wikipedia is always the best source, but these seem to be well sourced: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gypsy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Where it stops is not my decision nor my doing. I know that I have a problem with this and I want it to stop. Whether anyone else wants to speak out about other items they are offended about is their prerogative and their doing. My goal here is not to make Subeta more "politically correct", it's to bring attention to the fact that we as a userbase and the staff especially are exploiting a minority culture in Europe and promoting disgusting stereotypes that normalize the violence perpetuated against Romani people.

There is a difference between offending someone and oppressing someone, and that is where the gypsy references cross the line.

'It's only a bad word if you use it as one' has been debunked. Words like these have been used so often in a negative way that the association will be there for a very, very long time until the people manage to reclaim the word and change it's meaning. The LGBT+ community is trying to reclaim the word 'queer', but it still has negative connotations, and it still is used in a negative way. Because of that, I don't want to be labeled as queer, despite not being straight myself. The word still hurts me, even when I know people aren't using it negatively. The same goes for the n word, or faggot, or anything of the sort. Only the people the word is describing can use that word while they try to reclaim it and buff out it's negative connotations.

Thank you for making this board. I wanted to before, but wasn't sure how to phrase things. I don't support these items being taken off site, but I do support a name change. Perhaps replacing gypsy with 'traveler' would be a much better, much less offensive term.

What is offensive to some is not to others

Example

This probably is not offensive to you. At all. But to me, it is the most offensive item on site, because it's a shirt with a large derogatory term for homosexual people written on it. Yes, Fif which is a pun on Fifth for you, is a disgusting term for me and I really, really hate these items.

But to you, they're most likely not offensive at all, because you didn't know what I just said about the word fif

We can't start erasing items because they might be offensive, because this is all admins would do. We have to ignore what offends us and move on. Yeah, I'd be okay with it being renamed. But, not deleted.

I also want the fif shirts revamped, obviously.

I really like Traveller actually, that's a better idea than mine. Thank you so much for your input. <3

We're not asking to have the items removed, only renamed. There's a difference in my opinion between something like the fetus pops, and items with words that are largely known to be slurs. One is subjective, the other toes the line towards objective. Fetus pops might bother some, but most everyone in the western world knows the n word is a slur.

Get what I'm saying?

u sure? because the op pretty much said that the item itself, being stereotypical, bothers them and that their preferred solution would be to delete it. they do acknowledge it's hard, but being PC is impossible. i'm heavily offended by the fif shirts, seriously.

I've never heard of the word Fif being used as a gay slur (I'm also a member of the GSRM community), and after googling it I haven't found any evidence to support your claim. I really think you may be mistaken about Fif being a homophobic slur.

That being said, ignoring oppressive things only supports further oppression of minority people. I'm not asking for the item to be erased, I'm calling for the staff to accept responsibility for the fact that they have perpetuated racist violence and to ALTER the item in compromise so that the negative connotations to the actual, real-world culture they are perpetuating are replaced with something more positive. It wouldn't result in the removal of the item nor any stylistic changes to the art, only the name and description. Subeta has done it previously with offensive items.

Also - way to quote me out of context. You forgot to add the part where I clearly stated that was an unrealistic expectation and I was therefore requesting for compromise. The very title of this conversation is "Alter "gypsy"/other racist items and NPCs".

Please don't manipulate and misquote my statements to make yourself look intelligent.

Okay, well /I'm/ not asking for the items to be removed lol. I know that's not feasible. But changing the name wouldn't be hard, and everyone would be allowed to keep their items.

I agree that the description's pretty insulting and could do with an update, but gypsy is a much broader term than just a slur for the Romani. I'm kind of torn on the word as a whole. I understand that it was used negatively against Roma people and they find it insulting, but it's used to describe so many more peoples that just them and generally not in a negative light. I'm descended from Irish travellers who proudly referred to themselves as gypsies. And that's not just one specific family thing, there are soooo many traditional Irish folk songs that use the word gypsy in the first person.

I grew up understanding gypsy as a connotatively neutral term to describe nomads, which was in one context adapted into a cruel slur but outside of that context continues to just mean nomad. Kind of like how 'fag' is very obviously cruel when said one way, but if you go to Britain you'll hear about people smoking fags all the time with zero malice.

Not everything is America.

I'm not mistaken about my own culture and my own slang and the fact you would imply that I am wrong and you are right is horribly patronizing.

Fif is a slur in my culture. It really is.