Hey all. Let me preface this by saying I am absolutely not trying to offend anyone.

This is something that's been bothering me deeply for a long time.

I'm a cisgender, heterosexual woman and I've identified this way my entire life. It's the way I'm comfortable. I know that it is not by any means the only accepted norm.

I consider myself fairly new to the transgender and genderqueer communities as a supporter. I've only recently begun learning about and trying to understand these issues as well as I'm capable. I've met a lot of amazingly strong and wonderful people, and I'm very glad that I'm no longer "blind" to such an important cause. However, I've also seen a lot of "cishet" (is that the official term?) phobia and hate, and I want to try to understand why anyone would think that garnering hatred and fear would in any way help ANY proactive cause. I can understand where such hatred would come from, but I don't feel that makes it okay to essentially do exactly what we're trying to combat.

Seeing this type of thing is extremely disheartening, because I don't feel that anyone should ever be made to feel bad for who or what they identify as. It has not changed my beliefs in what is right, but I would like to know if all this hate is just within a small part of the communities, or if something else is going on. I guess I want everyone to get along and work together, and it hurts to see things going backward instead of forward.

I trust Subeta's community, so I'm bringing this to you guys as a serious concern. I would very much appreciate anyone who could give me some insight!

Thank you!

• Haru

[edit]Changed the wording up a lil bit to try to better convey my meaning.

, hope I don't ramble too much here! Here's my view, as a fellow ally. I think it's good to have this kind of discussion.

First of all, it's great that you acknowledge that this anger is legitimate from this community.

You've gotta understand that, while us cis hetero people can get verbal abuse from these communities, especially online, that is probably the extent of what we're ever going to experience. As you've probably seen from the people you've met, being in the LGBTA community, being transgender or nonbinary, those things can lead to so many depressing and damaging reactions from society, and even pure violence. People have literally been killed. For basically all of history. And we live in a society that caters to our existence as cishet, from representation to job security to basic human rights and safety. It's impossible for us to see just how terrible it is. So it's really easy to see the people who vent their anger directly towards us as actively promoting the attitudes they are trying to stop. They aren't! It's venting. It's expressing just how bad things are. It's expressing an anger that so many people who aren't affected don't know and don't care. While direct anger isn't likely to change anyone's mind, you shouldn't use that as a basis to question the whole movement or community. Because being polite has also not done anything to help the movement. This is a fallacy that a lot of cishet (and also white people) have, and it comes up during every civil rights movement. It becomes a bigger deal than actually changing what's wrong. Which is not okay.

When you see that try to remember that's what every non-cis non-heterosexual might just be feeling from all aspects of their lives, remember it's not really targeting you specifically, it's justified venting anger at a shitty situation. It doesn't require a response from you. As an ally we've gotta be open to these voices because their experiences trump our opinions from the sidelines. We have no place to tell them they can't be angry. In the end this isn't about every individual being nice to every other individual. That's a different problem in society. :P But their movement isn't about politeness. It's about stopping the oppression that's happening in the entire system, not on individual levels. I think a lot of people on all sides of everything focus too much on individual reactions sometimes. There's a bigger picture, and if you're focusing too much on rudeness or meanness from one person you're gonna miss the big picture.

I totally get it, it does feel terrible to hear. And if you feel like you're in the presence of a violent or abusive individual you always have the right to get away from them and make yourself safe. But remember that they often don't have that opportunity to feel safe and comfortable. You can walk away from it and they can't. That's their life.

As a mixed race cis woman I'm involved in a lot of racial activism, and every time I feel upset over someone becoming angry at cis people I remember, hey, sometimes I'm angry at white people. Not individuals and not even as a whole race, but the injustices that happen against other races is terrible and at least in my country it's very easy for white people to look away. Not only that but it's frustrating to live in a system that caters to them, with a history build on abuses they executed against people of color, and so many people deny that. And that anger is justified. It makes me want to be heard, which is important. It makes me want to make people listen, which is important. It's not the same as hating an entire race and it's not an excuse to be terrible to people, but it's still justified. I get that white people won't really understand that anger just like I can't truly understand transgender and nonbinary and nonstraight anger. I'm not going to be mean to someone about it because that's not how I am, but even if I was mean about it, that's not the same as oppression.

Ask yourself, are you really more upset over people telling you that you suck, than the actual oppression that's happening to these people? Which is honestly more important? Your answer to that is what determines if you're really an ally.

, First of all, thanks for the wonderful response!

I completely understand venting and its importance! However, I don't believe blatant hatred solves anything at all -- and I'm talking about hatred on all levels, in every aspect of... well, everything. Murder doesn't solve murder, for example. We are all human beings capable of feeling pain.

I understand that frustration, fear and ill feelings are absolutely justified, but abuse of any kind is never, ever okay, and that's what hatred often conjures up when put to action. I am definitely not trying to say that transgender/genderqueer peoples don't have the right to feel the way they do, because they have every right in the world. Feelings are never wrong, but actions can be.

The actual oppression is astronomically important to me as a human being, please believe me on that, but so is common humanity and equality.

I hope I'm making some level of sense. It's hard for me to put my thoughts into words sometimes.

I have the same problem with thoughts into words, blergh :S

Equality is vital, but this isn't an even playing field. You can't really blame people stuck in a 10ft deep hole at being angry or making mean comments about "those people up there" when us people up there aren't really helping them out of it. You might show sympathy but you as an individual can only help so much, and the vast majority of people won't help or acknowledge there is a hole. So yeah, there's resentment. Even if they do hate those people up there... are you gonna stand up on the edge of that hole and tell them to stop fighting fire with fire? Being nice to oppressors should never be a requirement for equality.

The best advice I can possibly give is to not take it personally. I know there are individuals who can be violent and abusive, and like I said you have every right to avoid them and keep them out of your life. But they're a small part of every group and aren't typically contributing any serious damage, except that their voices are often a lot louder.

I can only talk about it so much as a cishet person myself, fingers crossed someone who isn't finds this thread and tries to chime in on the subject. And I hope I'M making sense now. I hope I'm not talking into circles.

On a kind-of tangent: I agree that hatred vs hatred is pointless. But I don't think it's a case of hatred vs hatred at all. The oppression itself isn't stemming from hatred. It's institutional and inadvertent and a huge part of our lives even when hatred is not at all a factor. We contribute and experience factors of that on a daily basis and don't realize, and we aren't hateful people. In turn I don't think the anger we experience from these groups is necessarily hatred at who you are or that you identify as cishet, just anger at the situation and life they're forced to live, and you can become a target because so many cishets don't understand or don't care. Making fun of cishets and saying angry remarks is usually not hatred for a person's chosen identity.

Oh and I apologize if this message seems a little more scattered, I had it typed up and then my wifi cut out when I hit send and I had to retype it and now I'm frustrated at technology. :X

, No you're absolutely fine! I want to say thank you for having so much patience with me.

What you said makes a lot of sense to me, especially this part...

I myself suffer from debilitating OCD, PTSD and other anxiety disorders, and I've been resentful toward healthier people, even those I'm close to, because I've felt like they didn't care or want to understand what I was going through. When I broke it down, it was the situation I was angry at, because those people were trying their hardest to fight stigma and open their minds for me, but it's just a nasty circumstance. :/ So frustration and anger (and the need to vent that!) is completely understandable to me; what I was worried about was it turning into straight-up hate and abuse, but from the sounds of it, it seems to be a very small group of people who are projecting so much toxicity, who cross the line from feeling a certain way to making that way their alma mater. If that makes sense. I've probably been focusing on that group too much!

It would be great if someone who is something other than cishet could come in and provide more insight, but I hope I've grasped the basic idea. ;;

Naw, none of that anger is legitimate and I'm saying that as someone who's trans.

Some people blame others for all their problems. While there are issues in every society, even ones where gay marriage is allowed, treating people who have a different gender identity and/or sexuality to yourself is wrong. That's something you'd think would be simple enough for the LGBT (not going to remember all those stupid new letters) "community" to understand.

The hatred, drama and bitchiness is why I want nothing to do with the "community." It's toxic. I tried being involved in it back in high school, when I was a part of a GSA at my school, but even there it was bad. From what I've heard from others (who were praising the community, funny enough), it's terrible.

I get frustrated at times because people have a hard time calling me "he." I get frustrated because even here where gay marriage is allowed and in this town there aren't too many anti-gay people (that I've run into at least) heterosexuality is the only sexuality really mentioned. But eh, things will change.

But yeah, the LGBT community (especially on Tumblr) is toxic. It's best to not take anyone who hates on "cishets" seriously. They're either kids who haven't grown up yet or they're the kind of people who claim they're "disabled" because they're so damn sensitive and they just sit at home on the computer complaining about how society's wronged them. None of them deserve to be taken seriously.

- Anger and fear towards one's oppressors is completely 100 percent legitimate and saying it isn't is extremely insensitive and offensive. Oppressed people are not obligated to love and respect their oppressors. It's also a pretty horrible thing to say that young queer people who FEAR their oppressors don't deserve to be taken seriously. Everyone deserves to be taken seriously. Period. They have every right to complain about how society has "wronged" them, because it HAS.

I'm queer and I guess the only advice I can give is just to echo Mackenzi and try not to take it as a personal attack on you.

The whole "hate only breeds hate" thing seems to just be a tactic to silence people who speak up against their oppressors to be completely honest, and I don't think it holds any water.

I'm going to explain this as somebody who is bisexual but cisgendered, so I'm not talking about 'cisphobia' at all because I don't want to speak for a community I'm not a part of. I'm just talking about 'heterophobia' here.

In my experience, when somebody says, "I hate straight people", they don't genuinely mean they hate every straight person on the planet. Or even heterosexuality. They hate the way straight people treat them. They hate having their personal struggles invalidated by straight people who think that since gays can get married in a few states, homophobia is over. They're sick of hearing straight allies complain about feeling left out of the gay community, when the community isn't for them. They're sick of straight people thinking equality means "everyone gets the same thing" instead of "everyone gets the amount of support they need in order to become equal". And they're sick of hearing straight people defend other straight people's homophobic comments, which actually do hurt.

It's so, so frustrating hearing straight people complain about "heterophobia" and "hate doesn't fight hate", because they act like it's on the same level as homophobia when it isn't. People don't get murdered, beaten up, and made fun of for being straight. Heterophobia leads to hurt feelings. Homophobia can lead to death. And in my experience, straight people act like homophobia is much rarer than it actually is. Homophobia is constant, even if gays can appear on TV or be out in society. It's not over at all. It's frustrating when people have the attitude of, "I accept your sexuality and so do your friends, therefore everyone does and you aren't in any danger ever and there are no issues" because that's not reality.

And obviously, queer people are tired of being murdered, beaten up, and made fun of. Saying, "I hate straight people" is just basically the cliffnotes version of all that. It's an expression of how frustrated queer people are with the way they are being treated. Not genuine hatred.

Also, for me personally, straight men can be extra frustrating, because a lot of men think female bisexuality is a kink invented just to turn them on. They want to masturbate to two hot girls making out, but not see two women having a successful normal relationship. They think bisexual is a codeword for slut, sex object, and "please fuck me". The chances of being raped as a bisexual woman are like 7 times higher I think, I forget the exact statistic. But it's frustrating having your genuine sexuality treated like the third piece of a threesome, a sex object, or ever changing (because people believe you are straight when you're in a heterosexual relationship, gay when you're in a homosexual relationship, or just a slut all around).

Hopefully that makes some sense? I'm not looking to argue about whether it's right or wrong because I'm firm in what I believe so nobody is going to change my mind, confrontation is extremely difficult for me, and yeah. I just wanted to give some insight. I hope I have't gone on and on about nothing, I'M A LITTLE OUT OF IT so I can't tell.

you're good at opinions and explaining the things, plz help me out if you feel like talking about this like at all

EDIT: Okay, so APPARENTLY I wasn't clear, so I'm going to re-iterate a couple things. I'm not saying hetero-phobia or whatever is good. It's great for venting, but it gets literally zero things done because nobody wants to hug a porcupine, if you get what I mean. I'm literally just explaining it for the OP, because I get that it's difficult to understand. My point is that saying "I hate straight people" or "die cis-scum" is a response to the hurt, anger, and frustration queer and trans people are feeling. It's about emotions. It's not genuine, 4real, hatred of straight people. It's hatred of what most straight people are doing. They don't want cishets to stop being cishets, they want cishets to have some fucking empathy and stop being dicks. If you're being supportive of the community, actually listening to what queer/trans people are saying, and not equating your hurt feelings to the actual struggle queer and trans people are facing, you're good. Don't take it personally, don't be hurt by it. Listen to and understand where people are coming from and you'll be fine :)

Hello, SJW. No, your hate isn't legitimate. I don't care if you find it "offensive" or "insensitive." You need to grow up. "Cishets" are not oppressors. They are people. Unless they have personally done something terrible, all humans deserve a basic level of respect.

I am so fucking sorry that I love and respect my parents, who are both "cishets." Same with a lot of other people out there. I do not love or even give two shits about idiots who go on about "oppression" and how it's okay to hate a group of people for no fucking reason.

Seriously, I have nothing but hate and disgust for people like you. You can spend your life being angry at 99% of the world if you want, but you're an idiot for it.

Hello second SJW. Nope, not legitimate.

cool opinion I wasn't talking to you

Guess you're also unable to understand how public forums work. :)

I know how they work, and I'm not saying you can't respond obviously. Respond all day long if that's what you're into. Do whatever makes you happy. I'm saying I don't care about your opinion, I don't care what input you have on this conversation so there's no benefit you will receive from directing it at me, and I sure as hell don't feel like talking to you. I'm going to block you because I literally do not care about anything you have to say, because nothing I've said has been directed at you, and at this point you're just annoying me while I'm trying to play my pet game. SO YEAH, have fun being angry about "SJWs" by yourself.

You claim oppressors and decent people are mutually exclusive, which they aren't. You (like many people on all sides of this) fail to see the problems in our society are institutional, that even people who have no hatred towards anyone can participate in, benefit from, and perpetuate oppressive systems. You don't have to be hateful to be part of oppressive system. I know the word oppressive has become stygmatized thanks to tumblr, like all movements there are well meaning extremists, and I'm not sure of a good synonym off the top of my head that won't make people immediately think SJW. But it's troubling to see so many people completely dismiss the lack of human rights simply because there are people who complain "too loudly" and the people and systems who are the real problems are usually polite, mild mannered, subtle, and ever changing. This is an intersectional problem that happens for every civil rights group and every ism. It's about keeping the status quo. I know this is on a mild tangent, it's just important to keep in mind how these things work and still exist in our society. I'm not saying to embrace toxic groups, for sure, but don't dismiss the entire movement.

This is a problem with people within the movement too, of course. What's troubling is the cycle that seems to come up in these situations: a movement gets rightfully angry at oppression or whatever you want to call it, individuals of the movement react in anger and attack individuals outside the movement, individuals outside the movement get naturally defensive at being attacked, the two sides become bitter, the movement gets dismissed as radical, and the status quo doesn't change, oppression continues.

My two cents: anger is justified, but don't call yourself an activist if you don't try to educate. Because the system is the worst oppressor, not individuals. Individuals are just assholes. And even the nicest, kindest people can be part of a problem when the problem is society as a whole.

(I'm on mobile, hope pings still work from here)

Super honoured you think I'm good at opinions, but I don't know what to add, since you KILLED IT. And got this too.

I want to say something to you, but I don't really know how to address what you said. Like you responded to Listerine, but you did while not really acknowledging anything she said. It's really quite amazing how much you've missed every point she tried to make, actually.

Like what does that have to do with anything?

and anyone else who cares. Like, I think something people don't get is no one who is "cishetpobic" is that way because they think it's productive. That are that way, because they are actually, justifiably terrified for their lives. People are attacked and murdered because of homophobia and transphobia all the time. No one has ever been murdered because of cis or heterophobia.

If you REALLY want to be an ally, you need to understand we are looking out for our lives. Many of us have been hurt by cis or straight people before. I honestly have not met that many people who genuinely hate all cisgender and hetero people, but we can't tell who will hurt us and who won't. So in our frustration, maybe we do say "I hate cishets", but really it's because we're tired of being harassed, assaulted, and killed. It's an emotional response, but it's not meant to be any kind of activism. If you want to combat this hatred of cishet people you see, then call out other cisgender and hetero people you see doing and saying shitty stuff. It's not always safe for us to speak up. Help eliminate that danger we face, because that is what this is all a response to.

This is all I really want to say, because everything important has already been covered and better by other people, already. I just wanted to voice support for my friend.

- "SJW" lol not really but call me that all you want it doesn't make my opinion less valid

Why are you making straw men? Nobody ever has shamed you for loving your parents because they're cishets lmao. Nobody has ever said that was a problem. Ever. Nobody has ever said "treat all cishets like crap." You've just interpreted it that way for some reason that's completely mysterious to me.

The assertion that "cishet people are innocent!!!" Again...I have no idea where you're getting it from. Cishet people perpetuate the majority of oppression and hate crimes against queer people. They harass and even KILL us. So all queer people can't be angry about that? They can't voice their frustration AT ALL, because it's "toxic"? (another anti-sjw buzzword lol)

Oh yeah, all of them do this! Definitely! I remember when I was last harassed and killed... it was only a few minutes ago, when the entire town decided to start a witch hunt!

You blame an entire group of people (who, by the way, are most of the population of the planet) for what some people in their group do? You sound like a really smart, sane person.

None of you SJWs deserves to be taken seriously. You throw out all this bullshit about, "x group is all oppressors that attack and kill us!" Keep crying wolf all you want.

If I had a dollar for every time an SJW has called me ableist, transphobic (mostly because I know what being transgender actually means... which is that someone HAS to have dysphoria), homophobic, etc... I'd be rich. I laugh every time. Yes, it's so ableist/transphobic/homophobic to use logic. I'm oppressing you with my logic, yep.

I didn't misunderstand anything they said. :) I didn't miss anything, I didn't misinterpret, nothing. I got exactly what they meant. They, like too many SJW Tumblrinas, think that all cis, hetero people are oppressing them. By existing. They claim that every single "cishet" is oppressing them when 99% of the people are just going about their lives. You know, those things where you get off the internet, stop making up silly terms for yourself, stop being a special snowflake and actually do something with yourself instead of playing the victim all the time?

It sucks that this site is so riddled with SJWs. Well, all sites are, really.

It's especially funny that, when I said I know that not all "cishets" are oppressing people that you lots can't understand that "not all" doesn't mean "none." Oppression absolutely exists. In most countries in the world it's still unbelievably shitty for people who are trans or anything but straight. That needs to change. However, when SJWs whine about "microaggressions" and say that all of x group are "oppressors", yeah, that can't be taken seriously. It doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. Talk about actual oppression all you want, but pretending that most of the world is actively oppressing you is horseshit.

I don't expect a reasonable response from any of you though. You may write calmly and use big words to try to seem reasonable, but anyone with half a brain who looks at your posts can see that you're far from that. None of the arguments make sense. It's NOT okay, whatever you lot might think, to hate a group of people for something they can't control. Fuck the SJW mindset of "x = aggression + power" or whatever. No, those things -- racism, sexism, xphobia -- are the same regardless of who is being an asshole to whom. If a straight person is being insulted for no reason by a crazy SJW, that's the same as a gay person being insulted for no reason by a crazy straight person. Both are bigots, if they're insulting the person for something they can't help.

I'm sick and tired of all the little Tumblrinas claiming that everyone who is straight and cis (which, by the way, IS SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T CHOOSE... you'd think you people could muster enough intelligence to understand that) is oppressing them, murdering them, etc. Sick of it. It's not fucking true and it's disgusting that you think being awful to a group of people for something they can't help is okay when it's YOU being the bigot.

Are you 12? Because I don't debate with babies.

Everything you're upset about have already been addressed. And like you are totally misunderstanding, sorry. But I can tell with you this is going to be a never ending argument of everyone repeating themselves, so like good luck with all that but I am tagging myself out of this.

Haha, have fun with that, then. Leave if you want. I didn't misunderstand anything, but of course you'd keep saying that. I don't expect SJWs to be any better.

SJW: Cishet hate is okay! Cishets can't take it to heart because they're all OPPRESSORS and it's UNDERSTANDABLE that transgayqueers* are mad aND YOU'RE OFFENSIVE IF YOU DISAGREE!

Sane person: No, you're acting crazy. It's not okay to hate a group of people for something they didn't choose and can't change.

SJW: omG YOU MISUNDERSTAND

Sane person: ... pretty sure I didn't misunderstand you saying it's okay to hate a group of people because of what they are.

SJW: you totally did you baby! i'm leaving because i have no argument, just feelings!

Cool story, but that's not what anybody said. Read harder.

I understand everything I have perfect logic I know exactly what I am talking about because I'm trans and no other trans/queer person has a valid opinion because it is not the one I have also I know so much that I don't even have to allow words to marinate in my head before I respond to them, I just spill ill shit on the fucking daily and the whole world is against me because I'm right and I am the only person who is not generalizing ALL OF YOU ARE GENERALIZING EXCEPT ME I'm perfect