Idk if it's just me but I'm startin' to get that slow creeping fear that Subeta, while I'm sure not intentionally, is starting to lean towards a "Pay2Play" site? Especially with the change of the referral system. Now, I don't use it much because I'm too embarrassed to tell my friends I play a petsite game 20 hours a day and try to rope them in to it, haha, but to my understanding, for a lot of people it's one of the only ways to get a good amount of CSC without having to pay real money or spending millions upon millions of sP (which is what I do, I use sP.) Cus personally, I love subeta but at the end of the day, I don't like the idea of spending real money on something intangible. I made that mistake on Habbo Hotel ok it was bad. Plus then besides your CSC prize gone, you'll only get CSC if your friend is also willing to spend real money to get CSC. I mean like if it was them buying FROM the cash shop, that'd be less...weird. Or lowering the CSC prize from 500 to 100 or something.

But it's not just the referral thing, which is why I didnt put this post in the revamp section.(Also because the revamp section seems like just for art revamps? I'm not sure..). I adore CWs, Like, desperately completely head over heels love CWs, I've even commissioned two of my own and planning to do more hopefully maybe? But CWs are now a HUGE, GINORMOUS separate market, based almost entirely on CSC or real money. I mean the trades now are probably about...what 65% CWs? At least? I'm pulling that stat out of the air but that's my estimation?p There are a few, very few, users who will sell their CWs for sP, and a few artists who will take sP commissions, yes. Which is awesome and guys who do this THANK YOU, IT'S WONDERFUL, WOWZA. But I mean as a forum and HA heavy user, CWs are a huge part of the site. One that without CSC, you can't really take part in [i]at all[/].

Now don't get me wrong I don't think subeta will ever be entirely pay2play, or rather play2win as I saw someone putting it which probably says it better. But I think having a big part of the site almost exclusive to people with CSC, and then making it harder and harder to GET that CSC, I'm just a little paranoid. ^^;;;

Also, I know I can't speak for the users who aren't forum and avatar heavy like I am, cus that's pretty much all I've ever been. So idk if it affects you guys in the same ways or severity it affects users like me.

(also please don't get like angry at me I don't mean to attack the site at all. I've been a user for almost 6 years. If I didn't love it I wouldn't have stuck around so long!)

Giving out 500 CSC per referral was a recent, short-lived, and terrible business move on Subeta's part. Quite frankly, it gave players an incentive to cheat. There are much better and smarter ways to allow people to earn CSC without spending money.

I'm kind of the opposite tbh. The recent changes have been in my opinion smart business moves for the site, that to me show a bit of thought.

I've never understood the point of giving people CSC (referral points I understand) just for getting a person to sign up and hit a few requirements, and then 9 times out 10 that person leaves and never comes back.

It is definitely up to the site to encourage people to play and stay on the site, as well as spend CSC. But I don't quite see how the site realizing that rewarding the equivalent of cash for every referred user (whether or not that person stays or buys anything) makes sense.

As for the exclusive nature of CSC, I don't see what staff can or should do? You can buy CSC with sP. I don't see it being alarming.

Just a few points:

1. The CSC prize was actually fairly new (a couple of months?) - before that, and STILL you get referral points for people that sign up. These points can be used to purchase items that cannot be obtained anywhere else.

2. There are ways of getting referrals beyond having your friends join. I have 75 referrals right now, and only about 3 of them are people I know. You can try advertising to get them - on your own site, Facebook, a blog, twitter, or (which is what I do) you can buy advertisement.

3. It was shocked that they ever offered so much CSC reward! When buying advertisement I was spending way less than I "made" in CSC. In fact, just casually advertising since April I was able to purchase every CSC item I wanted and still had more left over than I ever did before (with the subscription). Here's how it broke down for the past few months:
   $ Spent $34.86 Total CSC 16,500 $ Profit $130.14 Extra CSC 13,014

Total Refers 33

Granted it was a bit of work, you CAN "lose" money, and takes strategy, but it was stupid not to try. I mean, I got 16,500 CSC for $35 ($165 worth).

4. I recently got a membership to a gaming store and my boyfriend used me as a referral:
   Quote

   Everytime your friends Earn GOB Gamer Reward Points, You will Earn Bonus Points Equal to 5% of the Reward Points your friends earn on an ongoing Basis.
   Subeta is offering 10%!

This makes more sense on Subeta's business end - you don't make money unless they do!

5. You can play this game for almost 10 years and be incredibly happy never touching a CW. For the most part, I ignore their existence, and it's never bothered me.

6. One of the biggest things I have always liked about Subeta is that anyone can get cash shop items without spending real money. The conversion between CSC and sP is more than fair.

And now that I've posted this data I feel like I need to hide. xD

Hm, sometimes I get that fear but that's just because I'm gun shy because of a certain other website I /used/ to play when I was younger x) That's what I've always loved about subeta though, you don't have to spend real money since you can buy it with sP. Is it harder? Yes, but in a way, you're earning/working for the money like you would at a real job, except here you just get to restock and play games x)

I never really understood why Subeta decided to give out 500 csc for every referral. Sure, I enjoyed the 500 csc I made from referring a friend but at the same time that system can be abused so easily. Someone could just make a bunch of different accounts up using different devices/computers and gain a whole bunch of csc (obviously, this is against the rules but not everyone follows them :/), while the site doesn't benefit at all. After all, a lot of new users quit shortly after signing up anyway. So the updated system prevents such cheating from happening.

Except you can. By buying CSC from user shops with sP.

I understand your sentiment, however. I know CSC is pricey when purchasing only from sP but it's not impossible. With enough work, you can earn a generous amount of CSC.

Haha yeah this is pretty much how I really feel. I never meant this as an accusation it really was just a "nagging fear" Habbo Hotel ruined me! xD

I have left other pet websites because I felt they were picking my pockets, so to speak. I also really liked that you didn't have to spend money here -- it was always optional. Lately it feels less so. You are not alone in your nagging fear and I think it is justified. I know other users who are fed up with the emphasis on the CS and if they haven't already left the site, they have one foot out the door.

I actually recently spent quite a bit on CSC only to have bonuses/specials get announced less than a week later & of course I can't get any of those and neither can the user who referred me. Couple things like that with all of the forever ongoing broken issues and I'm done spending any real money on this site unless/until they start running it like professionals. I see the potential in this site -- there are so many things about it that I love -- and I have hope & optimism that they will figure it all out. When they do, I will start buying CSC and referring people. I tried in the past (a long time ago), but the site was so hopelessly broken, my friend couldn't even sign up. I haven't referred it to anyone since that experience.

For what it's worth, I think you took an awful lot of %$&* for simply trying to see if your feelings were unique and they aren't. They are becoming more widespread everyday and it's not because of anything any users say or do. The people who say you just have to work harder to get CSC are clearly missing the point. I think it takes courage to express a sentiment that may be unpopular. Kudos to you for having the guts to speak your mind. Hopefully, in time, our concerns will prove to be groundless. crosses fingers Meanwhile, I guess we'll just have to keep our nagging fears to ourselves.

Pay 2 play means you have to pay $ in order to even play the site. Pay 2 win is another story, but since you can't actually "win" at subeta.. the cash shop is basically "pay 2 go fast" In other words, users who don't have time to spend on the site, spend it making money at a job and then spend the money on the site to gain buying power similar to users who do have 10 hours a day to spend on Subeta.

I kinda wish money had more point here, if anything. Like whenever the gelly war goes down (inevitability it will, at some point, happen) it's going to really suck with soo many pets on the same playing field, it's really going to come down to who has more time to burn because really one weapon verses another isn't going to make a big deal if you only have 2 hours to battle verses someone with twelve hours -- unless it's not a top score and instead top average damage per battle (which would be more fair in relation to time).

I've always liked subeta because I can put in money, that it needs to exist, to enjoy the game in the same manner as someone who can play twelve hours a day. If anything, I often get the impression people are jealous of those who can/do put money in the site? Like, they want subeta to just magically exist like neopets does but with no ads anywhere and no cash shop and people who give money get nothing out if it.

others have covered the "pay 4 convenience rather than pay 2 play" formula that is subeta, so i'll just say this: the fact that subeta has it's paid-for-with-for-realsies-money currency available for purchase with regular ol site currency already set it apart from other games that give you the option of either dishing out real money, or not getting that item or perk. yeah it might seem like a pain to grind up however much sp a given amount of CSC will cost, but you actually have the ability to do this on subeta. you can technically gain every advantage a paying customer can without spending a real life cent, but it's at the cost of your time and effort required to grind up the sp to do so. so either you pay for convenience, or you work for the bargain, and i think that's a really fair way of doing things, especially when there's a lot of games out there that tell you "pay up or sit down"

yeah subeta seems like it's really emphasizing the whole "give us money" tone, and if the site ran on good intentions alone, i might have a problem with that. but i understand basic economics, so i can't get too cranky about it.

Thanks for the back up :) I completely agree with you. I'm probably gunna stick with subeta through thick and thin, but there is this sudden huge emphasis on csc that makes me uneasy. And yeah haha I'm at the point I get nervous whenever I get pinged to this thread again like "oh no..someone else is mad"

Hey, I did say that pay2win was a better term, haha. I more meant that there is more and more focus on actual money and I understand why but it's getting to be a lot. Perhaps because there is suddenly this huge wave of focus on csc, between the peka-boo park boutique, the almost bi-weekly rewards for buying csc (NOT that that's a bad thing, it's more that "BUY NOW BUY NOW BUY NOW" sort of feel with seeing it so often. Sorta feels like insurance commercials at this point), the re-releasing CS stuff (again, not a bad thing), it's just a lot of emphasis at one time.

I don't think Subeta will ever be a pay to play site, or at least I hope so, but I have to say they don't do much to attract new players.. I have tons of friends who play neopets, I thought it was going to be pretty easy to convince them to join Subeta, instead most of them already tried it in the past and don't want anything to do with it anymore cause they consider it too hard to play and not friendly towards new players. The few friends I managed to refer didn't stick for too long , everyone quit playing besides 3 of them, and all of them gave me the same reason, they said they didn't understand how things worked and claimed that the infos were too scattered and hard to find. I could take the time to help them if there was something in it for me, but seeing how it took years for them to spend real money on neopets I don't feel like wasting hours to explain how everything works here in the hope that someday maybe I'll get a few CSC back. I think it's great that the staff is so open to interact with the users, but when you're new and you don't know anything is really hard to find the basic informations you need about questing, restocking, battling, vending etc, seeing as they're all scattered around the boards. What this site lacks is the contribution of the active players in the way neopets has, where you can find petpages with guides about everything. So maybe.. allow users to code petpages more similar to the ones on neo and instead of just having a pet spotlight also have a petpage spotlight? Give skilled users a reason to make guides and tutorials for new users, if you don't want to do it yourself because staff is busy with other things. And maybe add a reward if referrals stick to the site and actively play ( there are a lot of ways to track this:page viewed, achievements earned, forum posts..) ; I know I'd be much more inclined to convince my friends to join and actively help them playing if I could get some sort of reward for the time I spend, and in the long run it would benefit the site too cause if a user stick around enough to enjoy the site and actually play chances are they're gonna end up buying CSC with real money. I started buying NC in 2008 when I signed up on neo and all my friends told me I was crazy for wasting money on a pet site, and now they're all premium members and actively buy NC, lol.

EDIT: sorry, I realize this isn't really an answer to your main concern, just my thoughts about the referrals part xD

Topics created in Site Feedback seem like they command more attention than ones made in Bragging & Complaining to me. I don't think anyone has expressed anger at you but these kinds of threads in Site Feedback tend to be more about er, site feedback lol, as opposed to just communicating individual feelings in the B&C forum.

Back to the OP, the emphasis on the CW market is because of users and not staff.

I agree with the original poster - i see 'CSC sale!' more often than i would like to see it on here. I've abandoned other sites which started off like subeta and turned into 'play-to-play' hell (neopets, gaiaonline and howrse). I refuse to spend more than a couple dollars every 6 months on any site - i've learned my lesson from those other sites.

[Quote=Lia]What this site lacks is the contribution of the active players in the way neopets has, where you can find petpages with guides about everything. So maybe.. allow users to code petpages more similar to the ones on neo and instead of just having a pet spotlight also have a petpage spotlight? [B]Give skilled users a reason to make guides and tutorials for new users[/b], if you don't want to do it yourself because staff is busy with other[/quote]

I think getting new players interested is something that Subeta as a site fails miserably at.

Current players do their part and refer friends, family members, collegues (you never know) and kind of put their neck out. As As much as I want to invite people, I can't stand the idea of how embarrassing it would be to explain, not the cutesy HAs and the pet systems, but the number or errors and broken content, the stuff that jusr makes no sense.

That being said I think it is already amazing how users have taken up the slack in the Newbie area. Guides are avaiable for almost everything, and to be fair, I don't think they are that hard to find.

[Topic=9302/-What-to-do-on-Subeta-A-todo-guide] [Topic=141562] (leads to dozens of user made threads explaining the Battle System)

Some really great staff made guides: [Topic=141578/Frequently-Asked-Questions-Answers] [Topic=797080]

Staff has said rcently that they have begun working on making a more friendly tutorial guide system, and I really hope they take into account to tons of stuff the site offers.

On the topic of feeling as though the site is suddenly money grabbing, I think it comes from the site making so many bad decisions for so long, now they are trying to turn to a better direction that it feels like overkill.

I see where you're getting however I see subeta's point also.

After recently converting (yes, converting is how I feel about this xI) from another site which offers the same options as subeta does with real time Cash, I've found it a lot harder to gain CSC here than compared to my previous play site.

I'm pretty much into my two week account status of subeta &I've already acquired a gold account &many CS items via sP. The reason why csc might seem so high is simply: With many non-paying players, the demand for CSC surpasses the supply from actual PAYING PLAYERS. Therefore we should give more slack to paying csc players instead of taking away their profit by asking for easier options to obtain csc.

Unlike other sites, subeta gives reasonable &consistent options in getting sP FAST. Even without a gold account, I managed to get up to 2mill in pure sP by quests &another good mill in sales from quest items DAILY. That almost instantly allows me to buy 100CGC with sP.

Subeta's economy is thankfully a lot more subdued &reliable compared to other Online gaming sites, &I guess we just have to look on that side than the actual alternative - which would be (like you say) pay2play. :)

I had the same feeling as OP when subeta announced the 500 csc per referral scheme . n