Introducing Project Kumos!

November 21, 2023 1:34 pm

Hello everyone! January 2024 is coming up, another year for the world and Subeta. From those of you who have been here from the beginning to those who joined further along our evolution, you've seen a lot of change and progress. So the announcement of a new site framework may bring up a lot of conflicting emotions, and it's important we break what and why Project Kumos is going to be starting December 1st 2023.

WHAT IS PROJECT KUMOS?

Keith did not build Subeta as a seasoned programmer. The earliest parts of the site were written when he was 14. As he built new features, things he thought would be really fun and that others would enjoy, he wasn't always looking at how things would look four years down the line or more. Nor was or this always easy to plan, since software versions also change. As he programmed Subeta using the tools he knew and had at the time, Subeta took on technical debt; the same way you need to get something now and plan to pay it off later, this meant coding a feature to work now and planning to retrofit or accommodate other code around it. The new auth system is a good example; the way it handled cookies was outdated and unable to handle new security protocols. So Keith put together something new to solve the problem, using the tools and approach that had worked before and started applying that to some other ideas on the horizon...and had an epiphany.

He details it more here https://kumos.subeta.net/forums/thread/8-%F0%9F%8E%89-Project-Kumos-%F0%9F%8E%89], including the cost of looking at outside options But the shorter version is that he realized his previous approach to coding Subeta one feature at a time, especially as the lone programmer, was going to run into the same problems we Subetans have unfortunately seen before; individual projects with a lot of steam that peter out as that technical debt of an older feature comes due and stalls integration with the amount of work having to be paid back. The future of Subeta can't look like that, for anyone's sake, and he knows it.

WHAT THIS MEANS TO SITE USERS

New features will be built and tested on kumos.subeta.net and then, when they're ready, will have redirects on from the subeta.net URL to kumos.subeta.net EDIT will be integrated onto and accessible on main subeta.net. This does mean you'll only be able to access those new features through the Kumos Project until they're completed. But all of current subeta.net will still be available with the legacy features we have currently in place! Meanwhile on kumos.subeta.net there will be games and prizes, and lots of chances for feedback as Keith uses it as a test environment for new ideas and revisions of existing content. It also has a changelog! https://kumos.subeta.net/forums/4-Changelog

We WILL all need to update our passwords again if you haven't done so already on/for kumos.subeta.net; On the new kumos page you've got to click the "forgot password" thing under where you would put your credentials to get an email to reset/establish a PW for the new log-in You will then get a reset link in your email. IT will then update your password for everything. You will need to check your email on file at https://subeta.net/preferences.php?act=profile and be able to receive new emails at that address! If you need to change it but don't have access to that account anymore to do so, you can file a ticket and staff can reset it. OR, if you know a friend that wants to return but lost access to their email, they can email [email protected] to get that changed.

TLDR; the Kumos Project is a test environment to build new stuff and THEN add it to subeta.net. Subeta.net features are not being taken away and will continue working! The Kumos Project is a way for you to see and interact with new stuff before it's implemented, as well as give feedback.

We look forward to seeing you on kumos.subeta.net for the Kumos Project, and having more fun together on Subeta!

November 30, 2023, 1:02 pm by

Do we have to do the change password thing by 1st December or do we have some time?

November 30, 2023, 12:15 pm by

How do we log out of the Project Kumos site?

November 28, 2023, 4:36 am by

So, I wanted to look at project Kumos but there isn't even a link to it on this site. I understand it's optional, but... Why is there no link to it on this site? No one will know about it who didn't happen to log on (this site) in the week the news article was on front page.

November 24, 2023, 6:12 pm by

Yo, name buddy ~ ❤️ Pretty sure that you can change your email on this page: https://subeta.net/preferences.php?act=profile just type in a new, currently active email that you can use & access in the email text box & hit the "Submit your profile" button to update all of your info on that page.

If, for some reason, that does not work & doesn't update your email? Since you're logged in, you can try filing a Ticket & Staff should be able to fix it for you. Hover Subeta tab, Tickets: https://subeta.net/tickets.php

Or, if something were to happen & you're not able to log into your account at all, there's an official email to contact Staff on the Contact Us link, at the bottom of every page: https://subeta.net/contact.php

Hope that helps you & anyone else who may be having similar issues.

November 23, 2023, 8:43 pm by

So I have a ....weird problem. The email I used to sign up for Subeta nearly 11 years ago....is gone from hotmail/outlook/msn (I put it into outlook, it says it doesn't exist). So logically I can't reset my password to peek at kumos.subeta. I guess I'm fine without seeing the new stuff before it gets implemented but if someone else has this issue and does really want to see the new stuff - what should we do?

November 23, 2023, 8:36 pm by

some of these comments are appalling to me. tell me you undervalue software development as a career without telling me you undervalue software development as a career, yikes.

as much of an inconvenience as it may be to have to navigate between sites and reset passwords and get used to change and learn new things, in the end it will get you a more functional site that will fix all the things you folks are complaining about to begin with, so perhaps instead of saying things like "just fix xyz features already, that's what we all want, who cares about all of this," perhaps have an iota of patience and understand this is an aging game trying to catch up to old code when tech is changing every year and trying to do exactly that for you.

i work in QA and i'll be here to see it through the good and the bad! see you next year, subeta team!

November 23, 2023, 2:36 pm by

Quote by Jasper

Thank you for the detailed explanation, even if it&;s not the same exact field. Would you be able to answer the AI question; would it be a viable option for subeta?

Yeah no worries!

In my personal opinion I don't really think it's viable for this. AI code at the moment tends to make a lot of mistakes, and in a project as big as this one, those mistakes will pile up. Also, I don't think its existing dataset would really help it with ancient PHP code or how to correctly work with terabytes of SQL data. It's just not a very common use-case to begin with, but also PHP, especially an older version of PHP that the current Subeta is written in, is just not very popular anymore, so I don't really see it having this kind of code incorporated into its model to make accurate code for this even if the AI was perfect right now.

November 23, 2023, 2:01 pm by

and - Subeta already has a "Patreon"! It's the monthly gold account features, you can sign up for a monthly amount each month for gold account + CSC + a special item. I'm in the Quester tier, which is $5/month for CSC + a cool item + gold account. Totally worth it, big fan.

November 23, 2023, 9:51 am by

My only concern is that Keith as solo coder will have even more work to do while new subeta develop is basically at slug steps, I just feel he already has too much on his plate and is trying to put even more food at the top, or he is just...lost. I like new things, I really do, but I fear subeta will become a bunch of cardboard pieces glued with spittle. Sorry, I don't wanna sound mean, I'm just worried. With tons of old problems(richest user, games failing to load, potion lottery recurrent bugs, holidays recurrent and perpetual bugs, lag and delays)I can't see how bringing new stuff into the mess will make the other stuff more organized.

November 23, 2023, 9:33 am by

I love this and am very excited! Also protip - you can change the theme with the emojis at the bottom of the page! So cute!!

November 23, 2023, 5:04 am by

Just keep playing. Kumos is a Beta Page to test features on. If they work, they are moved over to regular Subeta.

You also do not require a new account there - the accounts are moved over, you just need to request a new password, since these can’t be moved. But either way you can keep playing regular Subeta!

November 23, 2023, 2:19 am by

Thank you for a reply ❤ been a while since I saw your name in my notifications, I hope you're well

November 23, 2023, 1:55 am by

oh this is exciting

November 23, 2023, 12:35 am by

People seem to misunderstand my question. It is, if I do not have a kumos account am I REQUIRED to make one there or can I just keep playing subeta here like I always have?

November 23, 2023, 12:33 am by

Thank you for the detailed explanation, even if it's not the same exact field. Would you be able to answer the AI question; would it be a viable option for subeta?

November 22, 2023, 7:09 pm by

Oh yay this means we're not losing bookmarks! :D This is fantastic~

November 22, 2023, 2:30 pm by

If I'm understanding correctly, the first things up are infrastructure and a new feature that will hopefully reduce server strain. After that it's going to be recoding the other parts of the site in chunks to test and then port back over here once they're functional.

November 22, 2023, 1:14 pm by

I can't log in to the kumos site at all. Just says my credentials don't match. 100% using the correct email and password

November 22, 2023, 12:58 pm by

Quote by Jasper

"Ive seen the estimation of $180k for a new coding team; can someone please explain to me how the hell that&;s reasonable? How big of a team are we talking? What are their hourly rates and are they actually fair?"

I probably could shed some light on this based on my own career. I am software quality engineer - that is, I don't write new features but I test them by hand and also write programs to also test them.

My salary is $92k. I work for a non-profit.

That's just me, and mind you, software QAs, even the ones who have a lot of experience doing test programming like I do, are underpaid compared to standard software developers at my skill level (my career is, at the time of writing, eight years long). Experienced software devs, which is what you want for a tech-debt-laden, long-running site that you also want to implement "in place" without kicking out all your current users, breaking the stuff they're currently doing, or data loss, is ruinously expensive even if you farm it out to a "cheaper" territory like eastern europe, or india, etc.. And yes, even if they're contractors - if anything, contractors are even more expensive than salaried staff in most cases, and that also means that once the contract is up, it all falls on you to support code that other people have written, which is more difficult to keep up with than, say, writing it yourself, or being part of a consistent team who had written it.

November 22, 2023, 12:35 pm by

Disregard my previous message. They are new cash shop items, not Fireside items. I got too excited and didn't check the rarity. -sigh-

November 22, 2023, 12:34 pm by

I hope this all works out in the end.

Side note: Fireside items are in the Item Directory Building!!!

November 22, 2023, 11:06 am by

it makes a lot of sense that Subeta is old and patchwork, especially considering how it started and how young its creator was. anything that works towards making it easier to update and work with is good by me. I'm fine with whatever changes come, I trust the team to make those decisions <3

November 22, 2023, 10:45 am by

You go to the Kumos site, click reset password and it goes to the e-mail that you have on file that you use on Subeta. You can either make a new password or use the same one on Kumos. Basically, it's a testing site. Things will be tested there before it's implemented on the main site (here)

November 22, 2023, 10:35 am by

So... Fireside when? :(

November 22, 2023, 10:28 am by

I have a question, what if you don't have a kumos site account do you need to make one? Is it mandatory or an option?

November 22, 2023, 9:33 am by

Been waaay overdue on changing my password, so this not only looks to be a hopeful step forward for the site, but a much needed heads-up for me.
:) Wishing everyone working on this new reiteration good lucK!

November 22, 2023, 9:24 am by

I am constantly surprised and delighted to see that Keith and the rest of the crew still have passion and enthusiasm for working on this site and trying to make it even better. :) I know some people would prefer the site just be fixed as is, but I think the point of this post and Keith's on the Project Kumos page is to say that the current site CAN'T be fixed, no really, because of how old and patchwork the code is. That's why things always break and features have been put on hold for so long. I don't know much about coding, but I can imagine anything written 15-20 years ago must be pretty obsolete by now, and the work of Keith/Bug in the past few years have basically just been bandaids trying to keep the original site going. I appreciate that AND I am looking forward to the fresh new site, I hope it's easier to build and deal with being totally new and separate.

For now I'll leave the playtesting for Project Kumos to others, and I look forward to seeing updates about the new site. I'm grateful the the old site, wardrobe, holidays, etc will still be going forward as usual here! Thank you for keeping it afloat, staff. <3

November 22, 2023, 8:20 am by

Had some trouble resetting my password but got it fixed now. Excited to see Subeta possibly revitalized. Been playing for more than 10 years. My late sister and I played together. After she passed, I logged in again to remember her.

November 22, 2023, 7:25 am by

This is still the main site for all your activities, including the dailies. Kumos is just a skeletal site for fixing and changing things and making sure things work before implementing them here on Subeta.net. Also, Keith wants to try out new things on Kumos and work out the kinks there instead of here and if they work out then he will transfer the code over to here.

November 22, 2023, 6:56 am by

I'm really divided on this. The staff recently did me a favor so I don't feel right not being enthusiastic about all this, but we've been down this road so many times; having another subdomain to sign up (and password reset again) for what I feel will be another abandoned project just weakens me. The timing is just god awful as well; the holiday season? Really mate? Reality is, I think Subeta's gone far and beyond what a single coder can do. (IDK what happened to all the others you brought on but you clearly need help with it.) I've seen the estimation of $180k for a new coding team; can someone please explain to me how the hell that's reasonable? How big of a team are we talking? What are their hourly rates and are they actually fair?

That asked, you can code entire games via AI right now and honestly, I am fine with subeta doing that. I'd rather an AI take on the workload than lose all that I've worked towards over the passed two decades I've been here. That said, if doesn't want to go that route and honestly can't afford to bring on human help, than I think it's best if Subeta just shuts down or is sold to a company that can. Those are the only options left that are healthy for everyone, heads and users alike.

November 22, 2023, 6:55 am by

There are 8 super~cute emojis on the bottom of the page on the test site lol

November 22, 2023, 6:02 am by

And, yeah, I was wrecking my brain all along, chiming in with THESOVEREIGN "What is actually changing on December 1st that necessitated a news post though?"

The way it was posted made us all nervous, thinking we could no longer use original Subeta and we had to act quick in order not to lose our accounts and not be able to play anymore.

November 22, 2023, 5:57 am by

I'm all pro for rewriting/fixing old code and testing it on Kumos before remerging it with Subeta. Sounds fab. This, by itself is a tedious time consuming job. Why is there need to waste precious time on (like I read) new facilities like crafting things (?) instead of healing the old, existing features?

November 22, 2023, 5:51 am by

This is really exciting !! Go Keith and team.

November 22, 2023, 5:33 am by

The Kumos site will eventually be integrated onto this site. It will still be Subeta. That's why he's moving it over to this one, so we don't have to update links and whatnot. Really good explanations are further down in this post.

November 22, 2023, 3:35 am by

Okay, I’m logged in on Kumos, but how do I get here to do my dailies and other stuff from there? All I can see is news, my profile, and explore? Do I now need to log into two locations to do my daily interactions?

November 22, 2023, 3:27 am by

I'm also wondering about Fireside, since I assuemd it would start before Black Friday, but if Black Friday is starting today then that means it won'e be until at least tomorrow and if we end up with only a week or less, we won't have enough time to get all the items we need unless there are less items. I don't know if it's been decided that there will be no more new Red Rreign items since there are already loads and it might be better to just re-release all previous items and their Wreathed counterparts so that the artists have one less line of items to draw and we can get older items that we missed out on.

Also, while I understand that you would probably want to pay coders and artists, I'm sure some of us wouldn't mind volunteering for free as writers. All you need to do is give us some information on the lore and pets and NPCs that isn't on the site or is hard to come by as a guide, and we can write item descriptions, Subetapedia articles, and any other written content that hopefully won't be too difficult for you to check for any inconsistencies with said information.

And all I really want when it comes to the Teahouse is for you to either ignore the vote from years ago (that most users who voted might not even be around for anymore), and just release the Garden Revamp and Lower West Side map already, or have another vote on what to do about those. If you do have another vote, maybe also list a percentage of completion for each of them so we're more likely to choose the one that's closer to being finished. It's been over 6 years now.

November 22, 2023, 1:07 am by

What exactly are the current features on the new new Subeta? It's a weird hassle having to do the password reset thing yet again when everyone already did that on the... old new Subeta. Why not just do this on new Subeta? Why create another new Subeta? How many Subetas are we gonna end up with?

Are all of the games ever going to be playable/accessible again? Some can't be played on a mobile device like Sudoku, and some have been gone for well over a year like the Item Drive.

Whatever happened to the minion zoo battling feature? Not that I think it was necessary since our pets battle and it felt like a pushed attempt at content, but it was brought to users' attention then quickly dropped after.

Also, isn't the "richest user" thing still broken?

I feel like some of these things like fixing the games would be an easy fix since every other size has their own version of some, but I'm not experienced with coding to say for sure... It feels though like another attempt to push more content rather than to fix what's currently wrong here.

I'd love to know straightforward what is actually needed for Subeta to get on its feet again. I think there's a lot of users and people with coding experience and great ideas who'd be willing to help if the need were just put out there. Even if the staff can't pay much, or even if they can't pay with real currency, there's a chance that someone is willing to make a good win/win deal here to help out.

November 22, 2023, 12:45 am by

Apologies if this is worded badly! I'm trying lol.

I get that they're struggling with funds but I feel like there's more they could do to address it... for example, maybe Subeta could make a Patreon, with special monthly items only going to people supporting it? They could be locked to the account like that hoodie prize they did in the past for a quest-a-thon. Everything they earn on site could be used to keep the site running, and all Patreon proceeds could just be for hiring people. I'm not a business person myself - I know it's not as simple as launching a Patreon, it's just an idea. As things stand now, I'm hesitant to give Subeta much money but I love the site and would jump to support a Patreon or something similar if it meant we'd get staff and a living site again. I miss plots and stories and all the scenery that came with them. Back in the tumblr days I think I saw some folks who offered their services free or just for csc... maybe Subeta should open spots for users who want to help? Again, I'm just grasping at ideas.

At the end of the day, I love this site. I've been here for 14 years - about half my lifetime. I worry when I read they're testing new features rather than fixing old ones... Tea House, anyone? (Speaking of, we all accept it's never coming, I just wish they'd tell us what it was meant to be. I'm genuinely curious)

November 22, 2023, 12:40 am by

groans Just start Fireside. 99% of the userbase just wants their holiday events, preferably with no lag.

My heart sinks every time a Brand New Feature is announced. Subeta doesn't have the best track record for finishing features. It seems like Subeta flits back and forth like a hummingbird, never sticking with something for long, and certainly never finishing anything. The wardrobe is already on another site, which is very jarring and not instinctive to use. Maybe finish up the pet colors, revamps for outdated ones, missing beanbags and plushies, fix whatever the Minion Zoo is supposed to be (or make it into a real zoo instead of battling?), ensure that MM and the Snowapult are going to work, tackle that backlog on the errors and suggestions forums, and go over your old announcements to see if there are promises and hints that never ended up happening.

November 22, 2023, 12:39 am by

so what I am given to understand, is for now, this site is staying put. the Kumos site is the testing ground, for the features being programmed for the new.subeta.net. As they finish features, and have them tested on Kumos...they'll slowly be migrating site functionality to the new subeta. They will also be trying to make it as seamless as possible...and work out glitches and item caches for user funds and csc and pets and so on, as much as possible before they implement things. I think that's what I got from this. I appreciate them trying to make it as painless as they could for us users. ^_^

November 22, 2023, 12:33 am by

A lot of the explanation went over my head but I'm incredibly excited to see new life being breathed into Subeta. This site means SO much to me and I'm so happy it's still around, and even happier to see that things are actively being worked on. I really hope this pans out, I've spent a lot of time this year concerned about this site's future and it's made it harder for me to be as active as I'd like.

As a pet person, I have a lot of questions about homesteading and was wondering if there's a general overview of plans/goals with it? It sounds like it will help make users like me (126 pets and counting! can't wait for my next pet slot!) less problematic for the site haha, which is great, but I do also wonder what things I'll still be able to do with my pets, if their profiles will still be accessible, etc.

And while I know that hiring a team to entirely rebuild the site is out of the question due to costs, this does again make me wonder - is there any chance of something like a fundraiser to temporarily hire someone on to help Keith out with the programming, or is that out of the question due to the cost/difficulty?

November 22, 2023, 12:29 am by

!! Wow this is exciting!

November 22, 2023, 12:18 am by

Thank you for trying to explain what's going on. It is and can be a bit confusing. But thanks to you and some others I think I understand most of it now.

as far as I can tell this is the first time that this news is being stated on Subeta's main site. It helps those of us who do not have or want Discord accounts to know what's going on.

November 21, 2023, 11:45 pm by

Just wondering what happened to fireside. If it starts tomorrow that means we only have a week right? I don't remember the usual time line for fireside, was it always a week? Looking forward to throwing snowballs in December.

November 21, 2023, 11:37 pm by

According to this update (and the other links here) they simply can't afford to fill out the staff. :'( I can't say what any of this is going to look like and I'm still trying to process it all, but I /think/ this is an effort to get the site all on one working code (because a lot of it is still the code wrote when Keith was literally 14??? Which is insane to think about) so the staff they have can add things and work on site features without having intimate coding knowledge. That is, I THINK that's the main goal here.

Would it be too out of character to post a tl;dr of what exactly is going down here? Possibly, lol.

November 21, 2023, 11:23 pm by

Instead of new-fangled features, I wish Subeta would focus on, idk, hiring new staff..? A new artist, coder, or a writer. Fill up the skeleton crew a little bit before launching something new. :')

November 21, 2023, 11:18 pm by

What is actually changing on December 1st that necessitated a news post though?

(or was this just never announced on the main site, and I just knew about most of this already from discord?)

November 21, 2023, 11:18 pm by

What is actually changing on December 1st that necessitated a news post though?

(or was this just never announced on the main site, and I just knew about most of this already from discord?)

November 21, 2023, 10:44 pm by

I really tried to grasp what is going on with this news post, but I really don't understand it. I see that the new password isn't universal between the new new site and legacy subeta? I'm quite hesitant to change my password now if that is the case :/

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Introducing Project Kumos!

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