Oh, wow, thank you! You're the best!

You're welcome! I was working on filling in the activation rates for things in the revamp spreadsheet, but really only finished up the scrolls before the BC went down 😅 I want to get the all of the rates for freezing, stealing, second attacks/defenses, curses, and blessings done at some point.

I think if the opponents can't chain freeze us as much then, maybe Okkoto could be fine? His build is intentionally hard to execute. t7, High Str and Def, middling Spe and then atm he only has 276 HP. But so far he's been able to beat someone like Celesse. I think reducing his need for freezing scrolls to then primarily use fixed heal scrolls and keep upping his str and def could make it still work. xD

Or maybe................

stat cap raise? 👀 42k?

I do wish you would do a poll first like you mentioned yesterday. Adding to things is one thing, but taking things away is another thing entirely. I was battling as you were revamping and, although I only got up to about halfway through T12, I thought things were relatively well balanced. Freezing is going to be a much bigger change and I think going too far might be too much change at once. Please tread carefully 😦

Thank you very much for taking our feedback into consideration! I agree it isn't a battle if you or your opponent are never able to fight back. As long as it's balanced on both sides and not an opponent being allowed to high freeze/high steal while you cannot and your protections against such are nerfed.

[Edit] I do want to point out certain situations where chain freezing makes sense:

1. boss battles like the hydragellos where you expect to lose but want to get as much damage as possible in a single battle before you die

2. farming opponents: getting to 200 wins on a single opponent is a grind and time consuming. If I know I can beat this super easy opponent but the have a ton of HP after 50 wins, chain freezing can make the battle go a lot faster.

Just to be clear before someone takes what i'm about to say out of context and only focus on that, overall I'm pretty neutral on if chain freezing is something that is good or bad for the game. I think its a boring mechanic, but its a beloved boring mechanic, and if it changes substantially, what replaces it needs to be highly thought out and pretty much comprehensive.

That being said, to play devils advocate, the fact that its good against boss battles can just as easily be an arguement for why it needs a nerf. Back in I think 2012, The person with the biggest pet on the site was able to survive for an infinite length of time against the hydra, and deal net + damage, and the 1000+ icon hydra weapon was added to keep hydra battles shorter to prevent that scenario. Longer hydra battles aren't necessarily good for the game either.

And on point 2, the fact that it makes farming easier, actually exacerbates the probably even more, since all 4 of the scrolls are farmable by large pet armies :P.

Again, i'm neutral on it. I just think those are bad arguments to keeping the status quo. I think the good arguments for keeping the status quo is that the economy has developed around them over the last 10-15 years, and its somewhat arbitrary what is good and bad over that timeline, since for better or worse chain freezing has been the game for 12+ years.

Then this isn't directed at Wesker, but just another comment in general for everyone: Even if they were changed to 30% freezers across the board, they would still be the best thing to do against every opponent that doesn't outright block freezing. Each freeze is still a 120 icon bomb with ~+/-2100HP heal. The next best thing is a 50 icon bomb that heals for 500 or a 23 icon bomb that heals for 1500. It's all arbitrary, its just a game, the reset should reset expectations about what is/isn't possible. Needing to change strategy should be a good thing. Adapt to the game that is presented and you will be happier.

That's fine I don't mind having debates. We all have different perspectives on battling and what would make it better and that's fine too.

If you will recall correctly on the boss battle -the only reason that was possible was not because of the freeze mechanic, but simply because the hydragellos only has three copies of the instant kill weapon so you could blast at least one and then full block the rest. Does that mean full blocking scrolls are OP and a boring mechanic? That is the exact argument you are trying to make for freezing. Just because it is ideal for one instance doesn't make it OP and why it should be nerfed.

The Hydragellos is not meant to be beat so chain freezing it to death isn't an option, it simply allows you to get more damage in before you die. Alternatively, you can chose to full block and get more damage in or have a pet with better stats that the hydragellos and tank the hits until the insta kill weapon triggers. If we were all forced to fight everything the exact same way, smaller pets and weird builds would not last two seconds against boss battles. Why should they be penalized?

2. I never said it made farming easier. The point I was trying to make is farming is already easy and it speeds up the tedious grinding process you are already fully capable of doing regardless of weapon set (ie: mindless clicking). Farming becomes mindless clicking when your pet is either close to cap or at least two tiers above the opponent you are farming. Again this comes back to be able to have variety and chose how I want to knock out 50k HP of an opponent that has 100k+ HP to start. Most pets don't have 1000 AP that could chain freeze any opponent to death. This is a problem that less than 1% of users face. It simply knocks down the ridiculously amount of HP opponents have when a user farms for resources, has a funky build, or can't afford ideal weapons to bring them into striking range.

The question really is how do you change the farming mechanic so that users can get boosters and mod crystals they need without it being so boring and single note. Chain-freezing, full blocking, overhealing is not what makes farming one-note, it's farming itself that could be better.

Chain-freezing is not always the best strategy and it could kill your pet when you are not careful. When you are facing a really hard opponent, it is always better to chose healing scrolls and defensive scrolls. Prodigy for example - my T10 pets would have needed to equip something like 12+ freezing scrolls to chain freeze him to death. She can only equip six scrolls in total and was able to beat him with 1 infinite use and 5 forj scrolls. What does that mean? If she had the AP to equip all 12, then any other defensive strategy using healing and def would have worked as well because it worked with less scrolls.

I'm only gonna be sad about freezing scrolls being nerfed, cus like Metroid, I've built a pet who more or less relies on it with low HP and high str. But, there's still lost of wiggle room for re-stating her post revamp if that build is no longer viable. And I still like it as a boss fight build option... especially if freezing gets axed; her high strength should allow her to do more damage than a balanced pet, and if neither can get freezes in, that'll be better for general damage in the long run. (in addition, lower healing costs)

This whole revamp for defense was why i wanted to try and see if a pet with high defense but low HP could still survive. I just might have to change the threshold of just how low that health has to be now. ^^ unless the stat cap raises 5-7k more points then i'd have even more wiggle room hinthint

I find my little guys I tend to chain freeze with because they don't have enough AP and stats yet to benefit from the newer scrolls that have been appearing lately. But with El and Fen (two T13s), I don't have a single freeze scroll on their set. I can change it to where I could if I wanted to, but they're fine enough without needing it.

I'm trying to see both sides of the picture. Initially I was very against the idea of freezing being changed at all, but I can sort of agree that it is a bit of a boring strat to use. But everyone's mileage varies, especially because it's a crutch we've had for years, so I'd expect there to be resistance. I'm a little anxious about it too.

Thank you both very much!

I've updated with the latest updates and Jess, I've bookmarked your revamp page so I can double-check stats on things as well as make sure all rates that are known are listed on SL! I do not have time today to do that though sadly.

I was completely happy with the freezing and Bona/Parched as they were. Also with the freeze-/steal-happy challengers, as long as the blessings & healing were left untampered with. Freezing chance is fun - ahem, was... now it's a nightmare.

I think he just wants to remove some of the brain-deadness of battling. He explained it as instead of having 5-6 turns of freezing before a freezing scroll fails, we’d have 2-3 turns. That’s going from the opponent being frozen about 85% of the time to 67-75% of the time. I don’t think it sounds that bad because I was hoping at most he would lower things on our side by 5-10% and those numbers are pretty in line with that. Obviously he can still change his mind and go lower, but if he sticks with that, I think it would make things slightly more interesting while also not killing the freezing mechanic.

I feel that the Freezing rate of our scrolls isn't affected as much as us being frozen (or robbed of our weapons) due to the mods not kicking in.

I think our freezing scrolls work in conjunction with that because the opponent can’t freeze us if we freeze them first :P But he’s supposed to lower the freezing rates on the opponents as well to match with the changes on our side. And if we’re struggling at all, he can rebalance the opponent for us. I just battled more or less all of the opponents to get accurate numbers for the tier recommendations so hopefully if something is way off, we’ll be able to bring it to his attention quickly.

I guess i'm not really sure what we are debating. Obviously freezing scrolls are good in certain scenarios, they are good in most scenarios where the rule of the battle doesn't ban them out. I guess the question i'm asking is why their existence is necessary/good game design.

Why does it matter if you can do 100K damage to hydra instead of 50K damage. It's all arbitrary, and relative to what other users can do.

And as to your last paragraph, ya, GoTF are probably still good until around 5-8K HP, I think the freezing scroll question is more of a late endgame question, where they are by far the best strategy whenever they are allowed.

[edit]

let me phrase it this way: When we don't have a imminent revamp, making a change that makes something significantly harder is bad, because it basically lets a few users pull up the ladder behind them and get a huge advantage. If a lot of these changes were being made without the context of a reset, I would probably be more vocal about them being bad changes. But in the context of an imminent reset - it really doesn't matter what happens, because we are all going to experience it together. Changes to difficulty in what is essentially between seasons really isn't good or bad, its just new.

I will just throw this in, I do like the changes to weapons via defense. The added secondary icon defenses make things easier when facing certain challengers. I appreciate that help, makes a lot of battles easier to deal with.

Anyway, hope some things get tweaked while the BC is down.

I totally agree! I was already a huge fan of dual blockers and now we have so many more, even triple blockers :P Overall an excellent change.

Also a fan of the new improved blocking on weapons.

It sounds like we are no longer getting boss battles so maybe a moot point. The numbers are arbitrary. The point was it takes that much more time and resources to heal for low tier pets to fight the hydra when you are only getting 1-2 turns instead of 6-7 turns through chain freezing an unbeatable challenger. But again doesn't matter if there are no more boss fights or if purge changes how site event battles work.