Sorry, I may have been too blunt--it happens. I'm not trying to be a bitca, especially not in this thread but actually ever.

Those are not my thoughts on the issue of all item resales ever, and I didn't mean that nobody ever resells items for any other reason. I was not implying that you personally were on this particular circular path, nor did I mean to hurt your feelings.

But I observe the market because I'm a nerd and a collector, and my experience has been that most things people are selling their stuff in a hurry to get right now will be available within 3-6 months for slot or less.

I have totally seen this behaviour, and when people tell me they can only slot on my stuff if they can get a buyer for x, y, or z right away, I do like to remind them that while I could use another slotter, the item WILL be in my shop eventually, and please don't sell anything that you love.

(I do however expect people to honour their preclaims because I depend on them.)

I also purge my wardrobe periodically, but when I do that, I do not expect to get back exactly what I paid, particularly if I paid more than slot and the item is no longer in demand to the degree that it was. That's just how markets work.

Resale value is also proportional. If you bought an item for 700 csc but can only sell it for 500 csc now that the market prices are generally lower, it will feel like a loss, but it isn't really a loss if the 500 csc you realise from the sale has as much purchasing power as the 700 csc you paid.

Lower prices benefit everyone that way. You don't get back the same amount, but the amount you get back is worth more than it was. CSC and other non hard currencies have no intrinsic value of their own, they're only worth what you can get for them.

I really do not mean to hurt people. I think I probably sound like my dad, who was a professor of marketing and management, when he was bitching every morning at the table about us kids wanting to buy all the new stuff immediately now that he knew we wouldn't care about in 3 months or 3 weeks. And I apologise for that, because I know that's where I learned to think like this.

At the same time, he was right so much of the time, and playing the markets in dressup games (poupee, gaia, subeta) to get the stuff I want has shown me time and again that he knew what he was talking about! I'll try to sound less like a grumpy old man.

I have been going back and forth for a couple days, trying to decide, if I even wanted to post or not. I usually stay in stay in the shadows when things like this are going on >_< But I feel the need to come out, and join in the conversation with a matter as big as this one.

As a releaser, I have been pushing through these hard times and continuing to release like normal. I was a bit taken aback once it was brought to my attention that CW's already onsite will most likely not go down in price with the new price changes (if they ever do drop the price). I would love very much to keep releasing like normal. I have quite a few recolors I'd really love to get onsite. But the thought of these CW's rotting in my shop with no one buying them makes me a bit sick to my stomach lol. I wouldn't call myself a "popular" releaser and 90% of the time I use what CSC i have just to get my releases onsite. I'd hate to waste what CSC I do have on releases that no one will want to buy if they are too expensive :/ I also have quite a lot of my releases in my CW shop that I bring back for BF but, once again, if they don't drop in price with the new changes then they will rot D:

I'm not really sure how to go forward at this point...

Keep in mind that we are basing our predictions on what has happened in the past and that we are making our feelings known to the staff. It's possible that they won't leave all the old CWs at the old high prices.

Particularly if people will just take a moment to realise that resale value is proportional. If you have to resell older items for less than what you paid, but the amount you get back buys more stuff, you're not actually losing purchasing power, you're losing numbers.

(Also, people wait all year for BF. Do bring things back. BF is the one time a year some people can buy stuff.)

I’d just like to point out, if I’m reading your message correctly, that I do not sell cw’s anymore (and haven’t for a very very long time) except for my own releases when I have batch extras. I am not worried at all about the cws I own and love to “lose purchasing power”. What I was talking about was my releases in my CW release shop.

Haha, you're being such a sweetheart trying to keep the positive spin on everything. :p I know it's silly, but I appreciate it.

I think it's a good idea that staff be aware of all viewpoints regarding price, from both a releaser's perspective and a buyer's perspective. I don't buy CWs to resell, but even I have a shop with old items I no longer use, or the occasional item I bought more recently but couldn't make work how I thought it would. I no longer try to sell items at a "profit" beyond what I paid initially, but I do keep things in that shop priced higher than what I could get from pawning them, on the off chance I could recoup some of the CSC I initially spent on them. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to sell at slot price or a bit under.

There is a lot of grumbling on the site at large about the expense of buying CWs secondhand and the pervasiveness of "greedy resellers." If new prices are drastically lower than the current prices, there's a chance that old items priced at their original slot price in shops will be seen as another greedy cash grab instead of just an attempt to recoup costs. That was the concern I took from 's post, but maybe I'm wrong. Her suggestion to differentiate old, pre-price change CWs with a different colored star would indicate to buyers that a CW is priced higher because it was submitted before the new prices, not because the seller is being exorbitant.

I'm probably glossing over some of what you said because I have a hard time holding all my thoughts together LOL, but I do agree that lower prices will indeed equal higher buying power, so we may all naturally begin to price even our old items at lower prices just to move them, and no longer be concerned with recovering our "original" buy price.

I know it's stressful to participate in threads like these, even when the discussion is on the lighter side - but your voice deserves to be heard like everyone else's! If you have concerns or would like to show your support/concern for something where staff might see it, I highly recommend posting it in one of these threads (since staff seems to be looking at them, unlike this thread which I just made for us lowly cw commoners ;))

Cash Shop Wearable Council Custom Wearable Rules NEED to be UPDATED and made clearer (Recent discussion toward the end RE: price changes)

I don't know for sure if old prices will remain the same or if they'll be lowered. I've asked directly about this issue, because I think it'd be awful for all the current CWs on site to remain at their higher prices, but I haven't received a response yet. I didn't realize that the price changes might not affect old CWs when I first created this thread, or I would have been more hesitant to suggest users continue to submit and slot items as normal, but finally made me understand that potential aspect. Ideally, I would love to see you and everyone else continue submitting new CWs as normal! But it is a scary thought that those new items might be locked at a significantly higher price later.

Thank you for the helpful links and taking the time to reply to me ^-^ I will check out those threads! <3

I would definitely love to keep releasing! I’m just kinda stuck on if It will be a waste of csc to do so >.< Hopefully the staff will give us an idea on what their plans are soon crosses fingers

:D I think we all try to sell stuff for more than the pawn shop takes, otherwise there'd be no point in it--the pawn shop is zero effort.

I don't actually think there are a lot of "greedy resellers" on the site. For one thing there's no profit in it. People just won't pay that much.

I think that perception largely comes from outside the community, particularly from people who are unaware that when I list something in a shop for 8888 CSC it means I want you to trade me something I want for it, not that I'm expecting you to hand me $85 worth of site currency.

However, my point is that if you sell an item you paid 700 for at the price of 500, but 500 buys just as much stuff now as 700 did then, you haven't actually lost anything. I know this is a difficult concept to work with, particularly since in the real world, currency becomes less valuable rather than more valuable over time, generally.

But if all base CW prices were dropped by 200 CSC the actual effect on people is much smaller and much more positive than they think it will be.

1. For releasers, you will get the same amount of profit for each sale, but you will make more sales.

2. When reselling items, you will get less CSC than you paid for your item, but the CSC you receive will be more valuable than the CSC that you paid, because you can buy more things with it. And you will also make more sales.

What you pay for an item is not the value of the item. It's the sunk cost. Your sunk cost is 700 CSC.

The value of an item is determined by the market, so if items that size are now selling for 500 CSC, the value of your item is 500 CSC.

CSC has no objective value. Its value is only in what you can buy with it. If you can get an item the same "size" for 500, then 500 now has the value that 700 had when you bought the item.

Whether you are getting equal value back (or making a profit) rather than taking a loss depends on whether the value of what you get back is equal to your sunk cost, not in whether the number of CSC is the same.

Finally --

3. For the site, lower CW prices means more people can afford to buy CWs with the amount of CSC they can afford to buy, so more people will buy CSC.

More people buying CSC means more money for Subeta, even if most of the people who start buying CSC or start buying more CSC are doing so in small amounts.

Subeta's profit does not depend on the base price of CWs. That's just the amount they choose to take for each item from buyers. Subeta sells CSC, not items.

If cheaper items mean more people buy CSC, they don't lose any money, especially on CWs where most of the work is done for free by CW creators. (well, we pay the artists if we aren't artists--but they don't get that money unless we pay in CSC)

CWs are not a moneymaker for Subeta because of the base price, because that's just a magic number. CWs are a moneymaker for Subeta because they are the primary reason that people purchase CSC.

I didn't mean to imply that you did resell CWs.

I meant that if we can get other users who do resell CWs (and most of us do, occasionally, because we are tired of them or they didn't work out as well as we thought they would) to understand the economics of resale, hopefully there will be significantly less pressure on the staff to maintain old item prices on older items.

I resell a lot fewer CWs than I used to because I now understand that even if certain types of items are very pretty I will not use them, but I have absolutely resold CWs.

You hit the nail on the head with what i was trying to state. :-)

I hear you and understand what you are saying - I still hold my same opinion though. ^^

Yes, I think I understand what you mean! I'm definitely not advocating against lower prices at all, I want base prices to be lowered very much! If the pricing for all CWs across the board (including those that existed prior to the price changes) are lowered, then in general I think that will be a good thing. Reselling older CWs at older prices may still be difficult, but with the increase in buying power users may feel less adamant about keeping those older prices.

(FYI I also don't think there are many "greedy resellers," but that idea does indeed seem to be pervasive outside of community regulars. It is what it is, but since I am a big proponent of making the cw community more inclusive to users with little or no cw experience, I hope that mindset changes someday!)

Yes, I really hope we get some kind of information soon! I can understand if the rule changes/price changes still need a while to brew, but not knowing if old/current CWs will be stuck at old prices is kind of a big deal for releasers like yourself who are just trying to keep enjoying the market.

Everyone's allowed to have their opinion. I was afraid you might feel slighted because it appeared that I'd implied that all CW sellers are on the FOMO train.

:) That's exactly it, but with less words, yes.

I think people who get convinced that resellers are all greedy are using the shop search to find things rather than browsing through the shops.

If you actually go into usershops, there's usually a disclaimer to the effect that "if an item is priced at more than X, it means I would like to trade for a wishlist item."

But if you're searching for something you want using shop search you just see this:

There's no trade disclaimer on this screen and most people won't go past it. The buy button is right there and doesn't take you to the shop, so they figure if they don't have that much they can't buy it, and what they think is 'who is this person that wants a $100 for a $5 CW', not, 'this person probably wants a trade' which is what you or I would think if the user shop was the only purchasing option shown.

If the item is locked in the releaser's shop (it's not) or if there is no releaser shop, this is the kind of thing that pisses off new players.

Especially new players who either don't know that you can usually ask for locked items that aren't specifically marked private, or who have had their heads bit off for asking the wrong person in the past.

(I pulled this one up because I was looking for this item yesterday, I bought it from the CW shop for 500, but I know what I would've thought if I had seen that in 2017 when I first joined.)

Nah, I don't get slighted easily. c: We're all entitled to opinions and to share them freely is a pleasure we can enjoy together. I also enjoy keeping my discussions in which I opine short (also my head has been pounding for a couple weeks straight and so making lengthy replies is harder).

hugs feel better!

Thanks I keep trying to get better every day! -hugs- <3

Just popping in here to let everyone know that it looks like someone directed the staff on CW Council to 's post here suggesting they differentiate between older (pre price change) CWs and the CWs that will be approved under the new system of pricing when they do it.

It looks like staff likes the idea which heavily implies that, as several of us mentioned, it's unlikely they'll be changing/lowering the prices of anything submitted and approved prior to the price changes. So do keep that in mind as you submit items ahead of the price drop.

What exactly do you think would happen if everyone did stop submitting?

I don't feel like we can treat "price changes" as something that is definitely going to happen within the next month or so.

Not given how long we have been talking about the possibility and how absolutely nothing has happened since then.

(Except that in Keith's desire to add new and exciting but not really necessary 'features' to the wardrobe, he has broken it in new and exciting ways...)

I didn't, at any point, say everyone should stop submitting. I said to keep that in mind for folks who are submitting as that is something they may want to know before locking their items into a price level - it's something I certainly wanted clarity on.

I also never, anywhere in my post, said it was happening in the next month. I too am in the dark about when these changes will happen, which has had an impact on my submissions as I have noted before. I've also watched several other people leave the market after getting no updates at all in the last 7 months so I'm just sharing what I have seen that is worth sharing (so that people see it is actually being actively discussed now with the council and staff).

I am severely disappointed in how much more the wardrobe has broken as well though - and I've posted on the wardrobe forums because not being able to use the filters when they worked a month ago is super frustrating and is also killing user interest in buying and selling cws since they cannot find the dang things in their wardrobe anymore.

Yes, I agree and think you are right. So it looks like if people want to get lower prices for new items then they should hold off so they won't be considered recolors.

I still have a plethora of recolors to put on site though. -worried face-

I think recolors would be fine under the new pricing system (recolors of my older items are thankfully not locked in at the old submission cost) but yeah - anything on site before the new pricing system is announced is almost assuredly not going to get a price update. It's going to lead to a lot of folks not interested in buying older items because of the price difference, even with differentiation so they understand that it was locked in at that cost (as you mentioned, and I appreciate that suggestion for changing the star color or something else obvious so we at least are clearly and quickly aware of it) - it's already slowed down buying of stuff in my personal experience.

Oh yes, I see what you mean by that now. -nods- I just thought it would be helpful for people to know why I am still selling a wig at 600-700 when other people release new wigs for only (imaginary number here --> ) 400, you know?

I totally agree - I think it will definitely at least help folks know we're not trying to run them up on purpose or anything.