- again, trying to avoid negativity on this thread, but you got it in one. There are a lot of discussions being had on releaser discord servers that cannot happen on site or on the official Subeta discord because we get told that we are "violating community guidelines".

I find it concerning tbh because while I understand that some of us can be hard to take when we're upset (nobody ever said I had a future in diplomacy), and I also understand that public site drama serves no one, but there needs to be some way to send feedback to staff that they're not going to like, because it's information they need, even if they don't like the way that it's being presented.

is right about the pricing structure also.

Currently these two items are both max price:

They are very different sizes. I want to release baby fossas for next Vesnali because they are the cutest things ever. But Tiana is an adult animal, imagine what size her babies would be. I can't ask someone to pay seven bucks for that item.

Baby fossas, you'll melt!

It's just really frustrating to see people argue that changes were made without a struggle and kind of crap all over those of us who aren't just...kissing up to staff, when that's really and truly not how anything got changed at all. Just because I'm critical of how things are currently being handled does not mean I don't appreciate the work staff does and puts in, and I thank them all the time for the work they do. Valid criticism =/= as bullying staff or whatever people are thinking is happening here.

I'm still supporting the community. I'm still trying to fight for us to get what we need. I'm still slotting on other users' releases as much as I possibly can. But I'm not willing to submit and watch my customers get burned by it. That's literally all I said about it, it's unfair to them. And those items are almost guaranteed to face the same issue as the old original pricing scheme items where they're locked in because that's how the items were written onto the site. As Feral said, there's like 40k CWs. Staff is unlikely to go back and recode every one of those to adjust pricing restrictions. It's a different situation when they add to the antique shop because it's far less items and it's their own things that they can correct. This is definitely not that (and it's also been quite awhile since they added any more old plot/event things into the antique shop).

I'm not saying don't spend at all on the site, or don't support one another. I'm just asking for people to acknowledge that any change comes with working together, so maybe also push for others to voice their opinions/frustrations with how the rules and pricing haven't been updated as promised while doing the rest of these things.

HMM you do make a good point here. I hadn't put 2 and 2 together that there would suddenly be more pricing categories than what we currently have, and that there would be no way to price old items that fit into a completely new category. I was thinking Wig goes from 2500 to 500 (doubtful lol) across the board, not Short Wig goes from 2500 to 500, Long Wig goes from 2500 to 1000.

I am going to try and formulate a question/suggestion for dealing with this problem and post in the other thread. Perhaps they could open an option for "resubmitting under a new category" to change the price. I just feel like they can't leave 40k items in shops at outdated hugely inflated prices, no one would ever buy it! >>;

Oh I know there's been plenty of struggle, but we've been struggling for years and I guess I'm just done. That's why I decided not to apply to the CW Council. We've already put in the work of making suggestions and building threads, it's already there. I've been right there with you on most, if not all, of the recent threads, paying attention to the discourse and advocating for changes. We're in this together but I'm tired.

I don't know if I'm coming off completely wrong, but all I'm advocating is a positive coming together of the community, supporting each other's shops/releases/events stuff like that, not pretending like everything is rainbows and sunshine and that staff can do no wrong. I don't think criticism = bullying. As far as I can recall, I've never read a post of yours that was rude or mean. It's just that I feel like we've done what we can and now it's staff's turn to make the decisions, what more can we do?

has brought it to my attention (after an afternoon of trying to crack open this thick skull of mine) that pricing changes may mean that any CWs submitted before the pricing change may be locked at much higher prices forever. This does change my thinking a bit, because it's not something I had considered. I still don't think the market should just be abandoned while we wait for changes, but it does bring a new aspect to the conversation that I hadn't considered.

I would be okay with them dropping the price for previously submitted items to the new price for the tier they were originally submitted on and not trying to update old items to the new tiers.

Even if a fossa is 300 base and a thylacinus potens is 400 base when they were both 500 before, it would be better to drop them both to 400 base than to leave them at 500 and the shop price at 700.

I could always ask for 100 profit on the fossa and 200 on the T. potens so that they'd be 500 and 600 respectively and fit in with the rest of the site.

I'd definitely want some kind of retroactive change, but I still don't think we're going to get one, or if we do, it's going to take a lot of time and work for us to get it.

If we've spent 6 months waiting on just basic price changes.... who knows how long a retroactive sweep will take. I have never expected staff to go back through these items though, and this is why I've stopped submitting things. I am not willing to take that risk, especially when it's so high. =/

I think this is a good compromise! I just cannot see them not updating prices at all, holy moly. T_T

Honestly, that's why quite a lot of us just gave up and retired our old items - people quit buying them because why buy something that should only cost 300 csc but is mandated to be priced at 600 csc =/ Some of the biggest issues facing a fix on pricing is that there's no easy way to do it, especially as the rules have led to a lack of consistency in what is submitted under what category. That information doesn't even seem to be stored by the site beyond your base price in the CW shops/on the submission page for further batches. And, especially if the change comes in without a lead time that it's going to happen on X date/week whatever, people are going to feel slapped in the face if they've just spent 700 csc slotting on a body mod and then a week later the new rules are put in and that item is now priced at the new price of say 400 csc. They're not going to get a refund (historically) but anyone else who waited is going to get the item for 300 csc less than they had to pay. That is, I think, part of why staff never adjusted the pricing the first change, and why I'm pretty sure they won't now.

That's kind of a whole other issue too. We're losing site engagement and site dollars because things have moved (for various reasons, not just because of the account risk for daring to criticize anything on here) to private servers. One of the biggest issues I think is the way that artists are expected to conduct business on here, but we can't have discussions because a lot of them have moved off-site to avoid having to be subject to some really old and arbitrary rules, and if they try to advocate for a rule change, they don't get support from the community on it. I really really think that a supportive group and discussion thread is a great thing. I really would love to see new releasers and artists having some help to get people to recognize their releases/design sales. But I think we need everyone who is active both on and off site to start supporting each other in our discussions with staff too. All folks should be advocating for things that are going to improve marketability but also help to draw in more artists and releasers, like removing restrictions requiring site currencies for artists etc (and I know we've talked about that before too). We really do need folks to come back and be brave here, but being shot down for suggesting staff could do more to help us definitely discourages that kind of discussion.

[edit] Girl same. I am so tired of having to do this round and round and round honestly. I'm doing it because this is one of the few small things that really does give me joy (most of the time), and I have seen you being super active the last couple years trying to toss in the support and get things heard and I do appreciate it, I really do. I see you too!

But if we're gonna push to support we're gonna have to also go hand in hand on the other bits (and I see you on the change rules thread doing just that, so I swear I am not saying you're not!).

Also the bit about criticism =/= bullying was a general thing, definitely not directed at you specifically! I've just seen a lot of folks jumping on others anytime valid critique of staff is happening :(

@ feral @ Reaper @ Tartelette

Whether or not they have saved all the information, the base price of the CW is stored somewhere in the database because it's persistent.

So if they're going to drop most tiers by say, 200, they could just lower the base prices in that database by 200.

It wouldn't work out to be perfect. But I'm okay with not perfect. Not perfect is better than nobody buying my thylacines because the prices are completely whack, instead of just a little whack. (I'm not submitting any more thylacines for a couple months because the last set didn't fill and I think that market might be temporarily saturated. But I do have more to do, like Kassiri and Tyrone...basically, I'm making all my thylacine OCs from an old RP because I'm a freaking nerd.)

Is this why I occasionally see really old items in old CW shops for like 1000 CSC?

If that's the reason and the person isn't being greedy, I'll have to re-evaluate my stance on whether or not I'm willing to buy those--there are a lot of old items by users who've left that I utterly love.

@ Reaper I have literally had someone who was totally supporting my position on an issue that I was calling Keith out on turn on me and call me a meanie (not that exact word lol) when he acknowledged its existence and I dared to ask him when I could expect to see something change. I feel you 100% on this.

Back to positivity (hello mood whiplash!)

It would be really nice if we could do something to help out new releasers who do their own artwork.

I have been told my luck with filling batches is kind of insanely good but I think that one of the reasons my shop took off like a bat out of hell is that I had Feral's name to drop.

I see other new releasers struggle because they do their own art and they don't have support from that artist's fan base, so nobody looks at their stuff. :( It's ironic that if I could actually draw on a computer I would probably have had a much harder time selling my stuff.

I don't think it's going to be that kind of consistent change though in pricing. And that still wouldn't work even if they because there are still items from the very first round that were never changed, so while an item that is now at 400 might drop to 200, that doesn't explain what happens to that item that was submitted when it was 5k to submit everything and hasn't dropped to even be 400 now or whatever.

The things priced at 1k in shops might've had initial release stipulations or be something that they never planned to release to the public but figured they had X batches sitting unfilled and that they'd make them available but at a markup as they initially weren't gonna sell at all etc etc. I honestly have no idea what goes on in people's heads really, but those are my best guesses (I bought a bg that was super limited release to the public and was marked up that way in the shop so eh).

It's not because it's mandatory though. The max "base price" in user shops is 600 csc. Anything beyond that is user markup.

OH! It could also actually be that the items were repriced for a past black friday sale and then the user became inactive/froze/etc and never changed the price back. Before we could remove items from shops easily, we had to basically play the game of changing prices if we'd just released something and didn't want people who slotted to feel like they'd been cheated out of a discount when black friday rolled around that first time cw shops were included. Some folks raised prices so that the item would cost the same as it would've if it wasn't sale time rather than skim through their thousands of items to lock these etc.

I have pinged Rah on the rule change thread to try and get some clarification on whether existing CWs will have their prices lowered when the change is made. Crossing my fingers we can get an answer either way. I sincerely hope the plan is to lower prices across the board, somehow, difficulties be damned.

Thank you for continuing to contribute to this discussion and helping me understand more about the situation.

Ps. Valiska The new shoutout ping group will definitely be used to help feature new shops in general, including those doing their own art! It's rough when you're just starting out without a big ping group. :O

I just saw that and appreciate you asking directly! I tend to not get answers half the time so I have given up in that regard haha.

Well, I'm not holding my breath haha, but maybe! I feel like if we can just get a little solid information, it could tide us over a bit. I am genuinely concerned, though, if the price changes take too long to go through. Sooo few new submissions lately.

There have been some great changes to the site recently, finishing up the decision on cw price changes would be the icing on the cake though!

Thank you for bringing community together, this is much appreciated ;v; ❤️

NOT cheesy.

I don't know if this has been thought of, but maybe someone who makes it on the CW counsel can make this suggestion:

How about lowering the price of all future submitted and created (including recolors) CW's in all price ranges and making it really obvious which ones are the more expensive ones from the past and which ones are in the new price system by changing their special star at the top right from yellow to blue/cyan?

So in a year, I can purchase a wig with a blue star for 400 CSC (random number) and other people can still sell their yellow star wigs for 700 and not worry about losing a lot of revenue or the devaluing of their older items? IDK if this will solve the issues but I think it would be a good idea.

I'm not on the counsel and have no real voice, so if someone reads this who is on the counsel or thinks that they know someone on it, maybe they can pass ideas like this (and better ones than this that are out there) along? :D

I'm not on the council so I can't pass this along, but you can try posting your idea in this thread (it at least still seems to have staff checking in from time to time):

Custom Wearable Rules NEED to be UPDATED and made clearer

I have asked directly (as of yesterday) if prices of older items would go down when the price changes take effect. I'm hoping they will, then differentiating between new and old CWs won't even be necessary. ^^

Yes, if the older cws go down in price then it would make the whole thing less tricky.

Though I am thinking that the problem still will arise for people who purchased a wig (for random example) for 700 csc but when they try to re-sell the wig can only do so for a fraction of the cost. Those people will still be upset by their loss. We have to think of the people who buy and re-sell not just the releasers in this overhaul. :D

I'm not stating this as anything you personally have any responsibility/say in, just mostly thinking out loud. :P

Thanks for the link, I reposted it there. :D

Yes, absolutely! It's not just spare copies in CW shops that will be affected by the change in prices. Thanks for bringing up this issue and posting in the other thread, too. ^^

-hugs- Yea I had been thinking that over for a while, so I hope things will go smoothly. :D

Okay, there is no way I can be positive about this one, sorry:

People who actively request that the site try to protect the "resale value" of CWs have been responsible for a lot of decisions that I don't think are good for the market or good for the site.

For instance, lower CW prices benefit everyone on the site except for that small group of people who care a lot about 'resale value' because they are constantly flipping their wardrobes.

But the reason they are constantly flipping their wardrobes is that CWs are too expensive. They could afford to keep their stuff and still buy new stuff if CWs were less expensive.

Well. That and limited releases. FOMO drives people to buy limited releases that then get flipped in a subsequent cycle of limited releases. Something a lot of people don't realise is that some of the really popular items that everyone rushes to slot on out of FOMO will be eventually be affordable, because half the people who bought them will decide they don't love them as much as they might love the next brand new shiny, and flip them.

But that's another problem and I'm not going to argue about that one again :)

Anything else you buy on this site with CSC may eventually be worth many times what you paid for it, or only a fraction of what you paid for it, because the market is not protected. Staff can re-release old items whenever they like, plus some items are just not as well-liked as others.

If you want to play the investment game with 5-10 bucks a shot, there are financial apps that will let you make legit investments with small amounts of money. CWs are not an investment.

I really hope that the staff will not bow to pressure to keep older items at higher prices because of "resale value". The past is done. It's better for newer players (who can get what they want) and for releasers (who aren't stuck with great items that are now unaffordable) if you just let it go.

cue Elsa

Now on to the positivity: that'd be great for new artist/releasers. I know a lot of people who draw their own stuff who struggle with slotting.

You don't even need to have a ping group. I didn't ping feral's group with my first release, but I put "new bag by feral" in my thread header and that was enough to draw people in. But if you are a new releaser who draws your own stuff, nobody knows who you are.

Whereas there are a lot of people who are fans of feral, or Cathii, or you, or some of the older artists.

It is clear what you mean and where you are coming from. Thanks for letting us know your thoughts on the issue of reselling items. -hugs-

I actually sell items because I no longer wear or like them (quite literally only for that reason). I go through color fads and trend phases in real life and on here. I don't resell cw's out of a need for CSC but simply because I dislike owning items I never wear. I often purge my wardrobe in real life and on subeta. ((That being said I typically don't over-price my items unless I am undecided on it and would prefer to think on it or trade it for an item on my WL, which would be more desirable to me than selling anyways.)) That is partly why resale value is important, among other reasons. c: