Yep the wheel is turning really slowly :( As you said we need to bring in fresh blood to kick things up again. More items and csc circulating etc.

True, true, hence my unpopular opinion :/ I haven't bought csc with sp in a long time so I haven't been in the boat where I have to save up for a long time for something. I look forward to hearing more opinions about what to do with the extra CWs in the pawn shop.

Thank you! Even though it was not a very good suggestion I am glad to have contributed something nonetheless :) Even just to help get gears turning!

@ voltage I didnt think it was a bad suggestion at all! If anything, it helped us outline the idea of a cw hustler! (and it also emphasizes on pretty much everyone's concern of the pawn shop lol qq )

@ sonatine @ violin @ kraken @ tania @ tartelette @ Celestial @ mesmer @ blazhy @ mail If im missing anyone, please ping them!

Hello artists! In an effort to pitch cws into the market once more, I thought of doing a recurring event! Ideally I'd love to throw the code and rules and basic guidelines on a google document so that anyone can reuse it to create an event. It could evolve around a certain theme and a few artists could contribute an item to release (maybe 2-3 items per event minimum? It could just be a general artists ping to call out those who'd have a bit of extra time)

Side event-related things could be added such as HA contests, giveaways and cw contests but the core of the idea is to get artists to make a small themed event -- I feel like events always lift up the spirits. I myself try to do events once in a while but the truth is that I often am busy or distracted (or rl sucks) and I space out. Having a sort of 'template' could enable anyone that has time, to do a mini-event!

I was thinking atleast once per season would be great (4 times a year really isnt a lot!) + anyone willing to host a mini-event could pick up the template and have a go at it! This could also be a great time to promote fresh artists drawing new items (:

If you're not interested no worries at all! I know not everyone wants to do that kind of stuff n_n Let me know!

Somewhere between a fourth to a half of the CSC I've spent on site was bought with sP, so I can attest to how prohibitive CWs currently are to those who don't buy CSC at all. Yes, I did buy CSC recently -- there'd be no way I can participate in the current market otherwise, with the older items I have for sale being unappealing to the market, haha. I've been selective about where I do spend my CSC now, mostly just buying back copies of my older releases (since I really regret parting with them years ago.) I don't know about other people, but I definitely don't mind (and even love) having extra copies of CWs I've released -- I usually commission something with a CI I like and need for treasure chests.

I somewhat disagree with people not wanting outdated CWs; most of the CWs I am seeking/need are from 2014 or older (some are even from the time CWs were just newly released.) While I don't like how the Pawn Shop devalues an item, thanks to it, I've been able to grab a LARGE chunk of my CW wishlist (mostly for older items.) To those who still buy all their CSC with sP, I'm sure some of them would have the same sentiments. I see where you are coming from, though. There are three of my releases that (I think) are still in the pawn shop, and I've had to temporarily lock the copies in the shop because of that. I also had to retire an item that is still eligible for another batch. That decision was from a few years ago, but I will not revoke any retirements. I do get that people can do what they want with an item once they bought it (which is probably why any future private items of mine will be "true privates" - i.e. only I (and sometimes, the artist) have copies. Anything I offer to friends/specific groups will be "group exclusives", but I won't really feel bad at this point if they sell/trade them for something more desirable.

As for charging extra for not wanting a copy, I know it doesn't make much sense when it means the submitter has to pay more, but the artist copy is usually factored in as part of the commission price. $5 makes a larger difference to me now that my country's currency is getting weak again, so I do see how this can be frustrating.

I'm sorry to hear you had issues with your CI -- I do know there is precedent for staff changing CW images after submission upon request, but it seems to be relegated to specific cases. In my case, the overlay for an item I submitted came out pixelated because my ISP at the time automatically loads images through a proxy that over-compresses all images. I'd say it's at a case-to-case basis, and perhaps they didn't really see the animation as something that is a NECESSARY change, vs. a background that shouldn't be pixelated looking very distorted. Unless they shot you down completely, I suggest trying again -- and mentioning that there is this precedent. :)

If any of you need help with concocting a plot, I'll see what I can do over the term break. :')

@ Cathii

Ohh! :D This is something i'm definitely interested in. I don't host events much myself, but I do like participating (when I can), and I especially like collabs and/or contributing! :) I think it would be really nice to get the community and artists together in a way that ups spirits and energy.

( I'm reading through the thread now.) Personally I sort of poofed from CWs because of some big RL circumstances that happened in the last 2 years, so I haven't submitted anything new. But because I still enjoy drawing here, I haven't retired or left the market or anything! (I hope to improve so that I can submit better artwork, and that's what i've been working on!)

Okay as for the main topic here, let me put in some input (and I can only comment on what i've seen and personally experienced).

It's really hard for new artists to fill batches so that's a definite deterrent. It's hard to learn if you can't even get to the stage where you can read a denial reason! From what i've experienced with denials, i've found staff to be very helpful. If you think hard and analyze your work critically, you'll be able to make it. There used to be a denial/critic help board run by users, but i'm not sure what happened to that. Things like that, where the community can help each other grow, was really fun to see!

In terms of me creating content/doing commissions...err that's opening up a couple of things. Firstly is just my rl circumstances of things that happened which ate up my time to draw for myself. But a factor in this I have is...simply the art market being really tough to get good prices in - by that I mean people unwilling to pay fair wages for the work. I know people don't have money to "toss around" and it's always been a struggle for artists to get good pay, but TBH even if I charged $30 for a CW commission it wouldn't be worth the time for the money. Minimum wage in my country is $10/11 per hour so even if it took me 3 hours to do a CW commission fully, i'd...still be working for min wage and that just doesn't cut it to survive off of. I either seek my work elsewhere (where I can be paid a fair wage) or I do certain styles of commissions that I know I can get done in 1-3 hours and not work for min wage based on what I priced it as. Sorry that part got a bit ramble-y, but it's a constant struggle. Buyers want to be able to afford work, but artists want to be paid fairly for it. With all that I sort of stopped doing CW commissions. But hey if people are willing to pay fairer for one then by all means I'd open them up. Just factoring in all the time and potentially added time for fixes because of denials...that adds up.

I can't comment much on the warning stuff....but the rules have made me very careful/iffy with how much to specify. I agree it can feel like people are waiting for you to mess up, if that makes sense. If/when I restart my CW shop i'd definitely want to do it in a different format and clean up the shop rules so this doesn't become an issue later down the road.

As for the new CW shops....honestly that's a mixed bag. I really liked them at first, but I can see how some concerns have come up with pricing. It's true, some people wait for items to hit shop/wait for holiday discounts/wait for pawns and thus contribute to the batch-filling problem. On the one hand I love the ability to make my items more accessible to people so I don't HAVE to wait for a batch to fill to get it out to them but I think...it has sort of flipped a bit to making it hard to even fill 1 batch to submit.

I'll leave this for now but I might edit/make another post to help think of ideas for the market.

I think after seeing what kind of event you're talking about when it's fleshed out, I might be interested in something like that. I may just be scatterbrained atm but I'm just not comprehending the depth of it atm tho xD

I'm up for anything if I have time so you can poke me whenever~ probably won't have time to host an event myself though ;-;

Thanks for the added poke I knew I was forgetting to go through this. (And thank you for the first poke, I swear I was slowly going through this !)

So I won't be able to go through all of the posts, but the gist of what's listed and suggested is awesome. I don't have too much to add (well, overall not too much ahahaha), but here's some of my thoughts.

Quick note that I am also all here for a buy-back feature to limit the pawn shop further.

Thanks for the ping! I like your idea about streamlining and simplifying a contest process that multiple artists can use/participate in. I can't say I'd be able to do it, but I would love to be included and I will try to help if I can! Honestly, this whole discussion has gotten me more fired up and interested in CWs than I have been in a while, and it would be so lovely if we could drum up interest in the community again. It was the reason I joined subeta, and I want it to be great again!

Your thoughts about decent wages echo my sentiments as well. Not many people can afford to pay artists a fair wage for their time spent, and it hurts the whole community. I think when it comes down to it, CWs will always be a bit of a gamble for those that commission them (hoping to get their money back + profit), and an act of generosity for artists that work on them (giving up full wages for the sake of a hobby you enjoy). Artists like you and I that don't have the luxury of extra time to "donate" to making CWs for cheaper than we'd charge for professional work just won't be able to make CWs very often. It would be wonderful though, if the CW market picked up again one day and commissioners were allowed to spend more freely without worrying about how much money they're using. We shall see!~ ^^

I really like the idea of having a ping group of artists that are willing to critique and help other arists! I feel like one existed? Perhaps in conjunction with the defunct critique thread in the Discussion forum? Perhaps we could organize a bit of a mentorship program, where an artist would be willing to walk newbies through the process to get their first CW on site. Maybe that would take the edge off how intimidating it is at first to immerse oneself into the CW community.

It was ! And then it sorta just disbanded (less new artists, older artists leaving or having less time, etc).

Indeed! I don't mean to put down commissioners, but as of the moment it's sort of a lose-lose for both sides if you're just looking at the money aspect of it. People here made some great points about commissioners not being able to make a profit off of CWs, and it's hard for artists to charge what they deserve and still get commissions. I'm wondering if anyone actually profits off of CWs at this point. I usually buy CSC with USD (sometimes with sp but the ratio is way too wacked out to warrant that), but the CW hobby is very expensive. I've often covered slots in batches at my own expense, so I can't say I have spare CSC lying around.

And while the pawn shop can work for some people for quick CSC, i'd personally rather hold onto an item and sell it closer for what I bought it for. Sometimes it takes (quite literally) years of patience but I try not to get into positions where i'm desperate enough to pawn stuff. At the moment, the only thing I use the pawn shop for is buying. I keep an eye on wishlist stuff in it, and whenever discounts go around I take a look through the pages too. With that saying, changes to the pawn shop/system there probably wouldn't affect me personally. The "charge back" idea where copies could go back to the artist (without taking csc from them) would be cool! I stress the "without taking csc" part because i'm very wary of this becoming like the paypal chargeback issue.

I think a few people mentioned livestreams/ping groups and I want to say i'm all for that! I find livestreams a good use of my time because I can get work done and it's an opportunity to discuss/teach! I've actually taught some workshops at my university about drawing in Photoshop, and with everyone having different styles and approaches there's always something to learn from each other. I think it'll be handy for veteran artists to keep improving, and for new ones to get into the market.

I didn't have a mentor when I entered the CW market, but I did a ton of research beforehand analyzing successful threads/shops and seeing the different ways people ran things. After I started, along the way, I did make use of the critic/help board a few times. :D "Assigning a mentor" or something like that is a tough task, but even what users are doing of collecting tutorials and trying to arrange boards will help new artists a lot. It's definitely scary starting off if you're going in blind.

I think this is an opportunity to pull our community together, get others in, and help foster a better reputation as approachable/helpful/collaborative...and most importantly willing to discuss with each other, so that drama can be curbed. I think about 2 years ago I wrote on essay on the CW market/Subeta's collaborative culture. It's such a big contributor to why it's "successful" and the discussions between staff and users, and users and users, is something that I don't want the community to lose! We're making some great things together, and sharing knowledge and helping will benefit us all.

I'll doodle anytime you want me too ^.^ I think, if I am reading correctly XD I wasn't aware there was issues with the CW market (I sorta don't pay attention to much of anything) but I am all for coming up with ideas to make it better for all concerened. I do not know if I could run a contest, I am very shy and tend to post on boards only when pinged. And I tend to be forgetful and wander off when I should be doing something. I could try if you need someone, however!

One thing mentioned, shorter batch sizes. I like that idea XD I know Subeta needs to make money, but maybe if we did a shorter batch via the shops- sort of like a direct submisson, but with slots, just fewer to help cover the costs? And then the remaining batch could go into the shop for those not slotted? I hope that makes sense. I fear it probably doesn't.

I do like the direct to shop idea for personal stuffs but I could see when you compound comission prices with even that much of a submission cost, how it would be cost prohibitive, especially considering how much CSC has risen of late.

One thing Subeta could do is maybe have some sort of daily or thing where people could win free CSC, put a lil more into the pipes, as it were, to combat the inflation of it, since taking the SP out does not seem to be combating that much? But again, I know they need to make money and all so I don't want them to get upset by that.

Also, I am absolutely willing to help out newer artists, both for submission and art stuff. I am no expert on art, not by a long shot, but I am very familiar with just about every possible denial reason (dear god, the lines, the LINES) so I can at least say what not to do.

HUUUUUuuuuu there is a lot to go through here, but as for what I was pinged for; I would LOVE to be a part of an artist event especially one that was quarterly. My friend and I were talking about something similar like this a while back though we weren't really sure if other artists would be up for it.

@ KRAKEN Omg, that is like exactly what we talked about. I lamented the fact that it might be difficult to get artists involved. Super cool. Well not an event, but a box (SubetaBox), where once a month kind of like those crates people get in real life people on Subeta can pick up a "box" with a limited CW. Maybe it even has a few other on site items set around a specific theme.

c:

/siddles out nervously

thank you for offering! I remember you doing plots back then (puzzles and riddles mostly! - something i suck at lmao) n_n Im sure people would love a bit of a challenge!

thank you for posting! I totally added your csc daily idea to the first post n_n I think it'd be a great way to even sliiiightly decrease the inflation while still making people work for it. I know there's the ads but seriously they're so full of viruses, no one wants to approach those and I totally understand them - I did one a long time ago and got a virus as well. Nope never again lol

Even something as small as this could help -- People very rarely hoard csc, they spend it on cash shop items, cws, pawn shop items etc. This csc wouldn't stagnate the economy, I feel like it'd help stimulate it even on a smaller scale.

1csc x 365 days = 365csc / year 2csc x 365 days = 730csc / year 5csc x 365 days = 1825csc / year

I just added your suggestion to the first post! I really love the idea of a monthly SubetaBox that could contain exclusive user-made items, but purchasable by everyone! Kind of like the monthly cash shop collection honestly. And even if the staff doesn't want to go with it, we could still run it on a thread on the cw forums (for example, one box every month containing items from a few artists in rotation!)

awww yay! I was trying to think of the best way to make it work - hopefully this does it!

I feel like denials lately are a bit clearer - or atleast clearer for us. They used to be more foggy but most of the times, I read a denial and I understand what they want changed/fixed. Though to a new artist that might still be a bit complicated. Now that you mention it, I'll see if I can come up with a small guide visually illustrating the major denial categories (like 'what the heck is a stray pixel?' for example!)

About minimum wage (& ) I definitely understand what you mean about it but I'd like to add a slight nuance! If you see cws as a profitable, true experience, I'm afraid it'll always be a disappointment. We'd all love to be paid what we believe our art is truly worth but honestly, it's pixels on a pixels site and I just... I can't imagine anyone actually paying the true price of what we produce. It's been tht way for the 5 years I've drawn and I don't see this changing at all.

One of the reasons why I don't make much backgrounds is because it takes me and my bf over 8 hours to do one for a meager $80. Except at that price, we've already lost half the market who doesnt believe they should spend that much for a background (whereas if we had to charge 'normal' price, no one would ever purchase it because it'd be over $300). It's no secret to anyone, most artists make money off recolors - that's how I do it too. The base item will almost always take more time to do than what I get in return. However recolors even the balance (so yes, it hurts when people ask for 2 recolors only - because then it's a bit of a loss on my side)

My point is, as long as you'll see subeta as a real business, a real income, you'll never find it 'fair'. I gave up a long time ago on the idea that subeta could actually pay me enough to be sustainable hobby because that's what it is - a hobby. I work fulltime during the day and I do indeed have the luxury of drawing during the evenings/weekends. I know not everyone has that free time. I just wanted to mention it because I think it's a bit of a disillusion to believe that even with a flourishing market, cw commissioners/buyers will be able to pay the full price that an artist is owed. I used to charge slightly higher when the market went better and still there was a cap to what people would purchase - a fine line between 'yes it is worth it' and 'hell no she's too expensive'. And that line was still way under the 'true' wage of a professional artist (which I dont claim to be anyway lol)

To truly enjoy cws, you have to see it as a side hobby that brings you side income, nothing more. If the day comes where we can sell cws for $400 then I'll be truly amazed but I don't think the userbase has that kind of money at all. Sure, there are people who spend that much (look at adoptables on DA and ToyHouse it's kind of effing insane) but on here? Not really - it's not the same crowd with the same funds.

(Also, im really not trying to be pessimistic, im sorry! I personally enjoy subeta, I draw for fun and make some side income to pay off my car, which makes me happy enough! I like to draw for 'free' because people have encouraged me and I want to thank them in return - I think this whole wheel doesn't always sound 'monetarily profitable' but it really is in the end. I've worked on this for 5 years now!)

thank you so much for even considering those ideas! I know some of them are far-fetched (some of them are dreams) but I think there are also a few ideas that are doable & that could truly help the market! n_n

To everyone! I created a new group called - open to people who would like to participate in the making of events! This group can be pinged (by its members only) if anyone is looking to start a small event and is looking for artists to contribute / collab with, ideas etc.

If im correct, only members should be able to view threads within this ping. I dont think it has to be super extra secret but it'd be nice to keep all the stuff in one place to surprise others with the event afterwards n_n

No worries, I understand your point! CW drawing really should be viewed as a hobby, because in the end what you really get out of it is personal satisfaction. I'm concerned about people who want to enter the market with just the money viewpoint, and I think the fact that it's not "profitable" is a part of the deterrent. It ends up being a cycle where you either have to be willing to drop USD on CSC or pay the inflated SP prices.

When I figured out I needed to find the bulk of my business elsewhere, it didn't completely stop me from drawing CWs but it did prioritize my time differently! And I was put in that sort of position where people liked my backgrounds more than regular items and holllyyy geeze the time it takes for those. The market simply doesn't (and most likely won't ever) support it! I've seen some adoptables sell for over $500 on deviantart, but that's really rare in itself too. Most of the art communities can't support the good wages, and most of my work is from RL referrals and maybe 1 art site. Though I do like the point you made with recolours being where people make back the csc. I mostly did new items over recolours, so I never got to a point where I would comfortably make back what I spent. Even then there's still luck of the draw on how popular the initial item is.

When it comes to just looking at the side hobby view of it....every once in a while I always get the itching to do OC items - but I don't feel comfortable with those being spread around and the copyright transference thing. I know, for safety, that the copyright thing won't be changed so i'm not here to argue that, but in that scenario i've seen people resort to making items private to try to retain some level of control. It is pretty upsetting to see a special item like that be tossed into the pawn shop by someone. I'm not gonna get into regulating privates and that whole other topic, but every once in a while we always see a flood of privates and I think that comes down to a few reasons:

• the whole "want some more control", for example on a personal item
• gifts or special for friends stuff
• and...sometimes for profit when auctioning the item to help fund the creation of other items For the last point, like some people have already said, it really comes down to csc being hard to obtain without USD! People have to find tactics to even be able to fund their items/pay for slots, and I feel like a new artist/user can't support that without having established customers or hitting a right combination of being super talented/making popular items from the get-go.

With it being a hobby, people have to find the personal motivation to make CWs and the right balance to be able to fund for creation/slots - and I think that management is lost on new artists who come in with a different mindset. Often times they lose money really fast/get discouraged by denials or slotting response/or feel like they have to do fandom or "popular" style items to make it anywhere. I don't know how possible a basic strategy/money management/etc guide would be...but it's an area where a lot of new artists struggle with.

edited out - this is irrelevant to the thread suggestion, sorry for the long post!

Zoop yeah, let me sMail so I don't flood the board with stuff that isn't directly related to suggestions. X)