oh yeah I totally agree with you! Sorry my wording might be weird ok. Extra cost just refers to like the initial cost when paying the artist more money with no copy, but then yes it evens out when another person slots! English sadly is my first language, no excuses.

- LOLOLOL DON'T WORRY, i was just making sure i understood what u meant LOL

I just think that works in theory but not very well in practice. And I agree with you 100% on the intent, don't get me wrong but I just doubt whether it works or not. Although tbh that practice wasnt around before I hiatus'ed so maybe I'm having trouble ajusting to the new market.

Well, if it works in practice or not, I can't be 100% sure, but I try to do my best to avoid people inflating prices of CWs that were public. I don't mean those super old CWs that are extremely rare, but at least the ones I have been recently releasing. :)

Don't you think inflation of some items would alleviate the deflation of others? Because otherwise a lot of items deflate, others arent allowed to inflate and very few inflate at all (most of which are private). I think potential inflation could incline some people to slot on more things?

I might be wrong but I think that this is how it works: O1. If the item is 1 batch, when reselling a copy, chances of a lot of people wanting it are higher so people will want to inflate prices, which I find unfair to others who couldn't snag it O2. If the item is 2+ batches, unless it's a super popular item, not a lot of people will want it, so either copies end up in pawn shop or just the regular slot price

So like, I'm unsure how inflation could help fill slots?? Let's discuss about this a bit more xD

interesting discussion, will watch. LMAO, I don't rly sell stuff much so I dunno how to contribute

I also don't like the idea of artists just pawning a newly released item, but I don't really think that is what is happening. An artist copy is considered part of the payment for the commission -- it really doesn't make sense to pawn it right off the bat. The artist would be getting less (pawn price) vs the full commission value.

Of the artists I've commissioned, I know for a fact none of them have any issue about saying they don't want a copy/they'd prefer csc/usd. doesn't take any copies now and and ask for usd instead if they aren't interested in a copy. I've never worked with but I get the impression that she really loves the cws she draws -- I've never seen her so much as sell anything, and often see her wear things she was commissioned for.

As a commissioner I have no issue with paying an artist in usd/csc if they don't want a copy. I know artists often draw things they aren't interested in at all and it doesn't make sense to take a copy of something they don't like or want and spend time trying to sell it just to get their commission payment.

It could be possible that an artist isn't able to sell a copy and thus pawns it, but in the case of new releases I think it's more likely a case of buyers/slotters regret.

i agree with you;; like, considering most of artists actually let their commissioners know when they don't want a copy, i also don't believe it's them doing this :I

makes a lot of sense to me if someone buys smth they don't like and are like 'damn, i need csc, i shouldn't have slotted on this' and just pawns it

CAN HAPPEN, WHO KNOWS LOL

ty for the ping @ Tundra ! I have read most of these text walls - NOW READY FOR MINE? xD

I got into buying/slotting on CWs before commissioning them, I used to slot on a range of items but now w/my CAD not taking me as far I am now rather critical of items up for submission & only slot on things in expectation of price/art quality/interests. Inflation of CSC is bcos CWs are flooding the market & users who buy CSC w/SP are now unable to slot regularly bcos they simply cant afford. I think maybe users cant sell the unwanted CWs they already own becos no one is buying outdated/unpopular CWs & so the pawn reaps & in return makes them less desirable. In todays market I only commission pieces or designs I love & believe in, & if the initial batch doesnt fill I have no issue covering slots I need to fill said batch & get it on site. Im committed to the design. I dont shelve items, I dont usually take slots on new pieces before an item that was already slotted on gets on site.

Pawn shop sucks, I would rather the copies be either returned to the seller/their shop in some way. I dont like the idea of deleting copies for CSC in regards to [I]limited[/I] CWs, that will basically fuck over any future CW buyers. Although I wouldn't mind if unlimited CWs were able to be deleted for CSC OR I wouldnt mind if there was a Custom Hustler who gets all the copies from the pawn after a period of time & sells for 250CSC (+shows # of copies)

While artists are entitled to their copies, if they dont actually want them & either hoard them to sell off later/pawn them - is it so dire that you need them? If artists are unable to sell off & are considering pawn, maybe ask the person who brought your copy on site if they would like it back? I don't know. When users ask me for my locked items - if someone else selling it artist or not, I will direct the sale to that user becos I would rather a copy go to someone who wants it rather than it in the pawn/buyers remorse etc... Especially w/collaborations on designs - that gets even more expensive for the person who bought the design/commission - becos in the end their option is to either A) purchase their own copy that they feel they already paid real money for B) make the slot price more expensive to cover this difference BUT NEVER C) ask the 2 artists to pay half the price of slot each - & everyone ALWAYS chooses A instead of making their item cost more for slotters/buyers OR asking the 2 artists to split the cost of 1 slot... Im not really sure why but now Im seeing artists charge more on items/recolors they will get commissioned for but definitely dont want copies of - (but I would prefer that extra charge instead of seeing pieces I commissioned/((maybe not designs I bought) being sold off or in the pawn)... becos isn't it a ~nice feeling/good for business/for the good of the site when someone requests your work whether you are into the piece or not? Seinfeld moment What's the deal with the extra charges for not wanting a copy? For instance, wig commissions run $40-$60+ if I'm not mistaken but the artist can decide "Meh, don't want it - Extra charge please" What is another example of something that works that way? Personally, & as a full time working Canadian with a really shitty exchange rate at this time, these extra charges are not a deal breaker for me but for some they might very well be...These are all just factors I have floating around in my head when specifically choosing which artists to commission or buy designs from.

Yeah there are a lack of new artists around...I like the idea of established custom artists posting tutorials of their subeta styles but also collaborating w/new artists to help get their work on site - as well as their name/ping group out there... If anyone is actually intimidated by artists, this would allow artists to show they are down to earth & their willingness to help bring more options & styles, & dare I say competition to the site, & heck maybe create professional level or even social bonds w/fellow artists in the process...

With a recent personal situation of mine I fucked up and submitted the wrong CI, it was supposed to be animated - animation is obz an extra charge from the artist - And was putting the initial batch on site all by myself. And I didn't catch the mistake before it was accepted because let's face it, things are being accepted way faster than ever before - I had a lot going on irl/was submitting 7 items (total:$228) ALL BY MYSELF at the time - but staff refuses to change it for me based on "policy". This was a real crushing turn off for me when I realized that staff do not have my back & will refuse to support me after I admittedly made a huge mistake. Have you ever submitted an item thinking you chose the option of 2 batches, took slots on a 2nd batch & then only after approval you realized accidentally chose a single batch? Did you have to pay the artist for another recolor of similarity to keep buyers happy? Cases like these, I wish staff would have an ulterior ticket application for unique situations - I feel as submitters we bring a lot of real cash money onto the site & should have a chance to correct our innocent mistakes when those instances occur, after all we're all only humans - & as customers, staff should realize how much money/exchange rates/TIME it actually takes for us to commission plus submission. Im not saying make exceptions if they really cant do anything but see our cases individually. Investigate our track records, I can see repeated mistakes/requests for changes being an issue, see how much we play here, bring to the community - & consider/CARE how often & how we $ubmit. - That was a bit of a personal rant there, sorry - TLDR; Im saying our custom wear rules, policies, guidelines for approvals vs. denials needs to be reevaluated more than anything.

kthx guys! I see a lot of friendly faces in here! cheers! :*

I absolutely agree that it is the their right, and it allows users an item that they may have wanted. But for some reason every time I see a release of something that just reeks of that one CW I saw submitted some time before it just makes me cringe. Not even so much that it's 'devaluing' the similar CW item, but that it feels like as if the idea was stolen or taken from someone else? Plain shoes and tights are one thing ... I mean, they are rather common items and can't have a 'patent' so to speak... but, items that are a little more specific... and I can't for the life of me think of the example(s) I had in mind... a time or two, but I'll get back to you on it if I find it!

Yeah... as I mentioned above, the main thing that bothers me is someone else's idea that they are essentially making a copy of and selling as their own. Whether the items 'belong' to the site or not doesn't matter... it's the artists work/commissioner's idea that they are 'stealing' in my eyes. Just seems crappy. And it has happened a number of times... so. I dunno. That's just my two cents.

:D

Thanks for the ping 😘

this is a great discussion idea - thank you for raising it and collating the ideas ^_^

I must confess I have not read all of the pages, though I have read the suggested ideas so far!

There are a couple of things I've noticed that I think aren't helping the sale & resale of CWs.

Obviously people pawning rather then selling or trading is devaluing CWs - I really like the delete option idea! Or just, clear the pawn shop out totally every couple of months. I think it'd be great if there was some way to record values of things. If I'm selling CWs in r200 I have no idea of the value. I try googling, but if you only find one sale from 2013...it's not helpful. I don't want to rip any body off at all, but I also don't want to feel like I'm being shafted. If there was a better mechanic for the trading of CWs that could record reportable values, I think that would be useful. (Spot the data analyst, jeeez) I also find that people aren't willing to haggle. I've got a notice in my r200 board saying, please haggle. I'm pulling prices out my ass, I have no idea. If someone thinks the price is off base, I'd rather they counter offer. Instead people tend to just never reply :/

Also, can we talk about unlimited CW shop items. I think they're taking away the call to action that people need to buy things. If something is in a shop, forever, as unlimited - why would you rush to buy it? This is especially true if the item is overpriced. (by overpriced, I mean, not cheapy cheap base). Eventually people are going to sell it, but, because it's unlimited there is NO second hand market. So it gets pawned or sold for dirt. So most people will wait for that to happen. You only pay 700 for something and see it in trades or the pawn shop the next day for 300 once before you decide never to do that again. While unlimited does mean everyone can get one...it also really devalues items and harms their saleability.

I love the CW shops and wish that you could put through limited batches in there. I've had to start a policy where if a batch doesn't fill it goes in the shop, but only one batch goes out the door. I simply can't afford to foot the bill for half a batch and then see it rot in my vault as no one wants the spares. ;_;

Are there any forums for fresh CW artists to seek out advice and constructive feedback? I think there might have been at some point. If not, that could really help people out when they get started. There are some tutorials on Tumblr and other sites that could perhaps be grouped together and linked for artists to check out before trying their hand at CWs. (I see this has been mentioned several times...so..I concur! should really read the full board before throwing my hat in the ring)

Also, the CW market is intimidating as fuck when you're new. Perhaps a sticky post in the CW forum telling people how it works would help? The first time I slot on an item I had NO idea what I was doing. It was a baffling experience. Also, commissioning items is a an intimidating process. Even though every artist I've ever worked with has been super lovely and amazing, I still find it really daunting, so being a newbie must be super scary. A guide to that might be handy (maybe in the same sticky thread?). (are they even called sticky threads? How do words work?)

Pretty much this. I wanna try to draw some CWs, I really do, but the lack on informations on how to do it it's frustrating. there's ONE tutorial from a staff member in a very old and outdated style that it's not helpful at all, it would be nice to have some artist from the site to show us how they draw subeta style, I don't think it would require much time for one them to make a video like the one we have now but with a recent style and a program that is not from the Jurassic xD

With not many artists that can draw CWs the active ones have to prioritize and most of them don't take CSC commissions anymore or have a way too long waiting list, if the site encouraged more artists to try and draw something new commission prices could drop a bit making CWs releases available to a wider audience

holy heck I need to catch up im sorry ;_______;

I like the idea of the shop although I'm afraid this would become a recycling problem as well. Like, if someone buys an item and 'returns' it, it stops the user-to-user interaction. We wouldn't really need trading and cw shops anymore if all we can do is return the item? I might be misunderstanding im sorry ;___;

it's true that subeta doesn't do too much to appeal to new people. I know I saw a post from Keith saying that with all the 502's and lag, they werent necessarily pushing for it either since well... they'd be attracting new users to a poorly stable site for now. They did say that as things run smoother they would work onto promoting the site though!

I definitely heard many people saying that 'cws are exhausting' and frankly they are for artists too. I think the whole process is stressful and it's one of the reasons why people stop after a while. I'm thinking of commissioners who only submitted a few items then gave up, artists who gave up after too many denials and not enough support etc.

Restrictiveness is not something i can see changing, since Keith mentioned cws were first created to allow private items though ;;

I think back in the days there were enough buyers so that even a 3 batches item was still considered desirable. Nowadays, the only way to fill a batch is to say it is either single or two batches at the maximum. And even so, I see those items being tossed in the pawn shop afterwards, minor exceptions aside.

I'm honestly one of those people who won't slot on an item that has 3-4 batches purely because I don't see the point 'if I'll find it later'. There's rarely items I -need- and thus I feel no rush into slotting immediately.

I don't think pawn shop should be closed because like you said, there are some users who save up slowly in order to buy their things - we shouldnt punish them by drastically reducing the time they sit in there or closing it completely!

Also omg im not intimidating i promise ;_____; I tend to be a bit of a hermit, so if people dont poke me I stop replying. I think it's part of the reason why people dont approach me - because im so random and volatile, I zone out too easily. I don't bite though n_n

pawn shop is definitely a huge concern to people although I dont know how this can really be adressed ;____; I also like the deleting idea but... what if everyone deletes instead? Subeta wont be making any money off it and I dont see them forfeiting this :/

Concerning tutorials, I'll try to come up with a decently formulated tutorial, I think might do some more too! Or maybe a guide x3

i like the idea of intro/get to know/refs thread! n_n We'd need many people joining in (Im concerned it'd look a bit biased if some artists refused to do livestreams when others do for example, I dont know haha ;; )

As for the cw events - I think we should have a list of ideas/guidelines/people willing to help? For example, I have an event going on and im just so busy and sidetracked, I just don't have the time to fully dedicate attention. I know people are waiting and I feel bad but if there were people running this event with me, it'd be immensely helpful. I think to make cw events successful, we need a contributing pool of people. I know everyone loves events but most people dont seem to see how much time and dedication it takes (on top of cost because let's admit it, it means sp/cw/csc giveaways etc.)

Wow great ideas all over wow A+

heya! I had a question! You said in your post that you needed to shell out $50 everytime you want to release another color but if you fill the batch, wouldn't it pay for itself? I mean, aside from possibly covering one slot, wouldn't it mean that you dont have the pay the entire 5k csc? ;o

I totally get what you mean but unless it's absolutely blatant, there is no way to know if someone knowingly and purposefully copied.

And in the instances where it is obvious well... we all forfeit ownership when submitting onsite. Am I always happy to see a cw item being essentially 'replicated' into an official item? Not really, but that's part of the game. When this happens, I try to remember that there are users who can't afford cws and who are genuinely happy to own sp versions. It makes them happy atleast!

(to make it clear - yes I sometimes see sp items and think 'okay this is clearly based off ____ cw' but we can't do anything about it and I try not to be bothered by it)

I dont agree about the items staying in the pawn shop for a super short time (ie one week) just because I know there are people who who simply cant afford to buy csc easily and save up for long periods of time before buying their item from the pawn shop! I do think deleting for csc would be a nice alternative though x3

I super agree that while staff can possibly implement some ideas, we also need to do something as the cw community because in the end, we're the ones interacting witih each other!

im not sure if this post was directed towards anyone or why it was in red (it's kind of intimidating ;______; ) I don't think people intentionally pawn items though.

Personally I feel bad telling people they'd need to shelve out an extra $6 per recolor just because I don't want a copy (which just makes everything more expensive). Most of the times I keep the item, sometimes I gift it to other users. I feel better this way then telling someone 'from now on, recolors will be even more expensive because I didn't want a copy' though D:

If people do indeed do it on purpose, then yes it's deplorable. I don't think it's disgraceful, unforgivable, dishonorable etc. and it seems like a bit strong though D:

(& ) I read all of what you wrote but there's one thing I wanted to underline particularly!

I'm all for creating guides and tutorials but people also need to realize that posting those also means our stuff getting copied if the new artist doesn't want to use it as a base point and then develop their own art. I've seen it happening many times and it's probably one of the reasons why I've been reluctant in posting fully detailed tutorials (also please do not misunderstand competition - im perfectly fine with this. I'm talking of people who really don't try to develop their own style and rather imitate others just to sell things faster)

It also takes a lot of time to do so - I for one promised here do some tutorials/guides but it takes time and I hope people know that it's time taken out of a relatively small schedule!

That is true, I could do it that way but I have been paying for the first batch and then putting in my shop for future purchases. I like to be able to have the item on hand when I am first releasing an item. Just one of my quirks I suppose 💋

if you were certain every copy could be purchased it'd be great but it sounds like a bit of a hazard at the moment D;

It is a problem sometimes and I end up with some not sold but even if you take slots, they don't always fill and then you end up pushing the batch through any way. Chance we take as CW releasers, I guess 😊