I'm in agreement here. While I personally love the MoNolith idea of it being an inanimate statue/shrine that is being fought over by two entities, this is a great compromise for keeping the character as an actual character.

They key imo is agency: currenly the lore implies that the character was basically cursed for no reason by a pair of goddesses having a spat, and while that tracks with the whole "gods playing games with the lives of mortals" thing, alluding it to real-world conditions is always going to cause issues.

There was, after all, a trend throughout history to attribute what we now understand as neurological and pyschological disorders to the work of "curses" and "evil spirits", and this has been used as an excuse for amoral people to hurt and persecute disabled folk for a shockingly long time. I won't get into the nasty details of it, but there's a reason why that whole cliche has fallen out of favour in the last few decades - we understand these conditions a lot better than we used to now, so making a story where one is effectively caused by a divine curse harkens back to an old and problematic trend that shouldn't be repeated.

By contrast, making Mono Ri into a character who has active powers of their own and who has actively decided to use those powers to intervene in a divine conflict, now we're getting away from problematic trope of "mental health disorder caused by evil curse" and right back into some good old fashioned high fantasy shit, which is where this whole thing should be. With this method, the character is no longer an unwilling participant subject to things beyond their control but instead the instigator themselves using their own willpower to solve what they see as a problem in a creative way.

This is, of course, assuming we don't just go with the whole "inhabited statuette" idea which is the most straightforward and sensible solution, but I do understand wanting to keep the character an actual living person.

I dunno about you, but divine ill will on a child and parents is weird.

I don't know much about Mori/Nori, but as a birthmother who was forced against my will to relinquish my child for adoption and has seen the affects forced pregnancy has on people I'm disgusted by this storyline. I had no idea this was the origin of Mori/Nori. If I had known sooner, I absolutely would have said something.

Not to mention how vile it is in light of recent events happening in US with abortion bans and the potential overturning of Roe v Wade. This is an excellent time to re-examine the "forced pregnancy by gods" trope and throw it in the trash where it belongs.

Sorry about your loss.

I thought about retconning the backstory as a lie told by Maleria to spread fear among Subetans. When in reality the parents managed to avoid death thanks to Shinwa and the oracle.

The current story seems to be a reference to how the Greek gods would meddle in people's lives. The Trojan War being one of the greatest examples. I'd suggest watching videos about Greek mythology online to get a better context.

I agree on tossing out the whoooooooole 'forced child' storyline. Yikeronis.

If they're wanting to keep the ties to Maleria (which tbh I don't see as a necessity because I didn't even know they were meant to be connected), I don't see why it can't be as simple as "Maleria tried to create an evil daughter and Shinwa made her not wholly evil". Shinwa interrupts a ritual to create life from nothing, and instead of creating a dark princess like she wanted, Maleria gets a (grown) daughter who's bound to the cycle of the sun and lives with night and day inside of her. Mori/Nori has to choose their own fate from there. I think that it might be better to lean into the night/day themes for the core of this character instead of good/evil, but that's just me. Maleria and Shinwa could definitely try and pressure them into choosing one or the other, but I don't think that good vs evil should be what embodies Mo/Nori themselves, because it leaves them feeling a bit two-dimensional and like a caricature instead of one of the fun characters we've been seeing lately around Subeta.

Maybe she's just a really chill person, who volunteers and gardens and dresses in cottagecore in the daytime, and is goth and into death culture and slam poetry at night. Their plans conflict and they can't agree on what colour to dye their hair or if they want to pierce their nose or not. Mori keeps adopting kumoses but Nori likes felis better. Mori picked out pink paint for the bathroom wall so she could paint it the next day, but Nori returned it that night and got a royal purple instead. Maleria keeps trying to get them to come back and be evil with her but Mo/Nori is just like "Nah Mom, sorry, can't help you take over the world, I've got plans, the corpse flower in Peka Park is opening up tomorrow night". Doofenshmirtz & Vanessa vibes. Maybe she/they pronouns?

Idk my idea isn't as dynamic as a goddess war/possessed body plot but it's a thought. Kind of wanted to step as far back from the idea of individuals getting their autonomy taken away as possible, at least as a jump point. But was mostly inspired by the fact that reading the article I realized they live in Veta Lake, of all places. It's such a mundane place for a demi-goddess to live lol.

Hmm yeah the stuff about the parents I also don't like but didn't really think about that before, glad it was also brought up.

an idea to change that up could be:

• mono ri was a priestess in training, priestesses are trained in general, and are eventually chosen by the god/goddess and then they are graduated to higher level of training with those also chosen for the goddess. however, when it was time for Mono Ri to be chosen, both Maleria and Shinwa chose her, and the goddesses have the final say, so she has to perform duties for both (this could also be a fun change to the whole two people in the same body thing.. similar to my comment before she could perform the duties of Shinwa during the day and Maleria during the night. Or could also have the opportunity to make Mono Ri a better rep at a Plural/DID character. They could have kept the fact that they were plural secret, and being chosen by both was each member of the system being chosen by each goddess. After their training, they are in a unique position and their plurality is celebrated. I am not plural so this should maybe only be an option if looked at by plurals and they like it too)

also like the idea that clopin posted above! kinda going along with y post from the last page, mori and nori are minor goddesses who can only manifest at certain times but share a space. i love the idea of them being such opposites but having to work together. sitcom level energy with how the temple looks hehe

I think the problem with having a rep for DID is that DID is very different for every body that experiences it, and to have such a broad stroke as a representation, especially if the body would be working day and night and needing to keep the body secret would be damaging to some. If I may be honest the idea of it makes me uncomfortable, but also I think that DID/DDNOS is too nuanced of a mental disorder to have representation. For example, I do not see my body or headspace as a plural, I do not consider my headspace as a system as there is little hierarchy and we are not fond of the term alter, So if those terms were used we would feel a disconnect with the character as a whole.

Just our two cents.

thanks so much for the response, in that case, i probably would prefer for the idea not be used then, since the goal is to move away from the current poor representation, i really appreciate your points, so thanks!!

others who had dissociative disorders can chime in but i hope i didnt come across as aggressive or anything and i apologize if i did!!

i am glad that you like the priestess idea that we broached to keep at least a human conduit in it but aaaaaa DID is just too much of a personal thing to really have a representative character. with other disorders like anxiety or depression you can at least hit key points that will resonate with others even if they dont experience what is written or have a more diluted or concentrated experience!! DID is spicy and difficult to approach imo and unless it was one who has the disorder writing it i feel it would not be Good to write about it if you have not experienced it in some way...

but yeah ahhhh i really hope that mori and nori can be brushed up nicely as its super nice that subeta is showing that it can be kind and accomadating

you're all good! didn't come across as aggressive to me, as i said i'm glad for the perspective, since i don't have any related disorder, so i am grateful for the comments and feedback from those its more relevant to :D

Horribly long personal talk about me being DDNOS and having my own alters as context:

Mono Ri being a "split personality" isn't exactly problematic I would say but more like there isn't enough appropriate handling of that phrase/concept.

My recommendations are to remove or modify the details of mood swings and conflicting personalities. I would even go as far as recommending to remove the "one body" concept entirely; you could have Mori and Nori as the "Mono Ri twins" (like an infamous name type thing) and when one is awake, the other is asleep. They can never be physically awake at the same time. I also think the forced pregnancy is in poor taste - you could replace it with a woman who is Maleria's devoted follower willingly accepting her desire for a child and offering her own body up for it, then raising the children (going off the twin idea) herself until they're old enough to join their "true" mother. "But then why wouldn't Maleria just kill Nori?" you may ask. What if Mori cannot exist without Nori also being alive? Shinwa's blessing could manifest in this way I would think. Light cannot exist without dark and vice versa. If either twin is killed, the other will also die because the balance is destroyed. This also plays into the quests being about weakening Mori because while Nori is awake, she could be weakening her sister while she slumbers.

... Hopefully this all helps. orz I also recommend that everyone read up on DID and its inaccurate past (MPD), along with the harmful tropes that plague it. I really hope that will give people a better understanding of why "split personalities" being solely good and evil is an issue. I am of the opinion that saying "this isn't an issue" is a bit insensitive. People have their opinions but please be aware that even though you have the right, your opinions may still be contributing to the issues others face, even if you don't mean to affect them. That said, I would prefer not to use NPCs to represent the disorder because it's so complex and still being pretty heavily studied. LGBTQ+ and racial (is that the proper term?) representation is awesome, and if we were going to dip into health issues (both physical and mental), then I would prefer it be things that are thoroughly studied already and are much more common. It's easier that way to not misrepresent and to be able to connect with a much larger audience. I would rather bond with an NPC with depression or anxiety than I would my DDNOS.

I will also say: all of my points/words/etc are not law. They're mostly opinions with some facts sprinkled in. Take it as you will but just not as the hard truth.

just wanna poke my head in and say that while i love the mono ri monolith and priestess-as-conduit concepts, i prefer the "mori and nori are twins" suggestion the most, because it could be satisfied by text-only changes and we wouldn't be stuck waiting for someone in the art dept to have enough time to redesign the npc

Fair point! May have gotten a bit carried away with my suggestions, heh, I just was more focusing on the issue of it being a one body type deal! Them being two separate bodies would alleviate some of the more sensitive issues without straining for art changes (though they are due for a redraw imo!)

i certainly wouldn't complain if they got revamped or redesigned entirely!! but i don't think they look bad, and selfishly, there's a lot of other things i'd like to see first (like that garden revamp we were promised in 2017 🤧)

I actually thought they were twins this entire time, so the story changing to two twin priestesses in a trench coat this whole time would make total sense to me.

I honestly think having the two fight for the same temple or Statue to be praised is the best way to keep the two going. I think a good idea for renaming the achievements would be something like "Conquered the day/night". I mean we have them represent the day and night here so having achievements renamed in the aspect of them makes sense to me. It's one way to rework it without having to get rid of them altogether but also not have it be so tragic.

g-d I knew nothing at all about mori + nori beyond a vague combo of discomfort and kinship; I can't really comment on the parents/birth situation but for our DID dollars worth--

while I would Love to see a system represented respectfully like. I'm gonna echo that the experience is just too broad for all of us to be captured accurately and comfortably? I'm loving the idea of twin sister switcheroo though, it sounds like it could lean into being very fun! and going hard on the night and day deal and changing achievements and relevant stuff to reflect that is something I could definitely get behind.

Hope this isn't too long winded. I wanted to throw out some thoughts on the current items that exist for these two and why I like the base concept but how it could be approached with more grace.

I would be very sad to see the two not share a body. That's what I've always related to and enjoyed about them. It's fantastical but I like that about it because Subeta can be a little escape from irl. I think having them as twins with their own bodies would take away what makes them a smidge realistic for me and maybe to others who see themselves in the chaos.

The concept can be done with more care in the subetapedia and quest blurbs mainly.

As for the achievement title, that's easily remedied by changing it to "Cursed: Mori" "Blessed: Nori" or Night/Day, Dark/Light, etc.

I suggest avoiding using "split personality" when one personality is explicitly evil but especially "help one personality rid themselves of the other" (from the subetapedia article) if trying to be considerate of the irl parallel to these two girls. It comes off very insensitive.

Some items related to Mori and Nori that I enjoy: There are positive ways to spin two-in-one. There's also simply stating what is without a negative connotation. These two have opposite color schemes and motives, they are split in the basic definition. Oreo cookies are split too...but they're not good and evil. Coping with chronic dissociation involves a lot of compromise. Sometimes it's not remembering who you are. It's not some blessed vs cursed battle, though it can feel like that when struggling.

I like that Mori is described as "lovely" and actually...liking things sometimes. These moments of Mori being pleasant are very welcome and would help the issue of her being flat compared to Nori. This is where some of sensitivity around their concept stems from to me. It plays into common misconceptions and stereotypes about dissociation. IRL there is no "evil" part. All parts of the personality have some purpose in helping the person survive. They can have needs and wants that differ.

If staff wants to continue the two-in-one direction, maybe play up that Mori isn't monotonously evil? Nori has plenty of positive items, but also items that mention how she struggles to stay positive and I love those. If trying to make it more realistic and hopeful, focus on sharing between the two because that's what the actual experience can be when there's peace.

The mechanic of their image changing depending on the time of day leaves a lot of room to work with the concept of light and dark literally and figuratively.

NEW LORE IDEA:

Nori was an apprentice to Shinwa and Mori was apprentice to Maleria.

One day, they were both sent to fetch a spell ingredient from a location that was in limited quantity. Each was desperate to impress their respective teacher, so they got into a magic fight with each other over the ingredient, despite neither being fully trained in the magic of the gods. Thus, disastrous results, and both souls fused into one body because of the poor, untrained spell casting.

In order to free them, both Maleria and Shinwa would have to use their goddess powers in conjunction with one another for a combined spell, BUT, because Maleria is wicked, she refuses to help Mori. She feels that she must remain bound to Nori as punishment (and also she doesn't want to work with Shinwa). Shinwa alone cannot undo the spell, but she visits Nori often, saddened by what happened to her apprentice. She has used her powers to allow Nori to 'rise to the surface' during daylight hours so that they may still speak with one another, and work out a plan for Nori's eventual freedom.

I love, love, love all the new suggestions and possible lore ideas for Mori/Nori. Great to see the site working on it's growth.

Minor suggestion though, can we still have the "_____ is Cursed!" for another achievement instead? I think it's a cool title, just shouldn't be associated with DID and/or in a negative light.