Transferred all the items out of a small gallery to my vault tonight... one click at a time down each page. Pathetic. There needs to be a better way because that is a major pain in the ass.

I get enough migraines and head, neck and shoulder pain in real life, I don't need that to aggravate it even more.

Whelp time to move all my 10k+ items to my vault until they realize that's a strain on the databases too. Not to sound bitter (but I totally am) I'm gonna predict this change gets pushed out then its gonna go into the same back-burner limbo as the TCG system, minion zoos, and the latest wardrobe.

subeta already in too deep with "encouraging-discouraging hoarding complex". and has alarming rate of new items. and a lot of unique items pumps into the game everyday through various manner.

that amount of nerfing is definitely too much compared to available items on site.

i'm not experienced nor educated in economics or pet site population study, but i would have guess that this gonna turn really really bad. maybe temporary bad, maybe long time bad, but definitely bad at some point.

I've seen some BIG players on subeta, like some of the most active, mention they will definitely leave if this is fully implemented. If that doesn't say anything about how bad of an idea this is, and what makes people WANT to play subeta, then I don't know what else does. I only hope staff will listen to its userbase and understand our concerns.

Sigh.Sometimes I'm not really sure what Subeta is even doing anymore.

ok so I definitely remember there was talk not that long ago that they were going to get rid of vaults entirely, I'm not savvy enough to find it but someone might be able to. Is this idea scrapped now? I hope so or what the heck are we supposed to do with our items?

Also I didn't even realize until I saw someone bring it up where's our money going from the shops? I've been working on the make a living and shop till saver achievements for a long time now. Are we just screwed if we didn't get the achievement in time and have to start over in these new tiny shops?

I have spent the past 9 1/2 years collecting items that I really love. I now have over 16,000 items in my main gallery (I also have 4 smaller galleries). What am I suppose to do with all of these items that I collected?!? Am I suppose to just shove them in my vault? I have been baking (which is costing me a fortune) so that I can have more food for the food section of my gallery. Should I just give up on that? What would be the point if I have to shove it in my vault? I spent a ton of sp and quite a bit of rl money on pretty items that I can display in my gallery. Are you going to go out and buy a new dress just to shove it in your closet and leave it there?!? I am going to wait and see what happens before I make any final decisions, but right now at this moment, I do not see myself staying here too much longer. This has been a really bad night for me :(

I've been on hiatus for a few months now, but this is important enough to drag me back here.

My shop (when active) regularly had 400+ items in it, just from questing prizes alone. I'm not an RSer, I don't vend, that's just quests. Right now, after several months away, I still have 101 items in my shop. And moving that 101 out by hand sounds like a massive pain in the ass.

I can't even imagine being one of those users with thousands. It's insurmountable. Without a direct-to-vault option or something like it, it's just not gonna happen.

Plus I know from questing that the BIG shops are really big, and really critical to the site's economy. For some quests, probably 90% of the supply comes from that handful of mega shops. What are they supposed to do with such a small limit, and what is the average user going to do when the cost of items inevitably skyrockets b/c there just aren't enough in the shops? And the cost of other items suddenly drops as people start trying to offload their massive hoards en masse? You guys are worried about making sP sinks and curbing hoarding to help the economy, but this stands a good chance of absolutely demolishing it.

(And this isn't even touching on things like items from "inactive" shops becoming unavailable, or any of the other major problems people have pointed out.)

Shops need to be made smaller and hoarding needs to be strongly discouraged, but this just seems like a really backwards way to do it.

Oh, ffs, seriously?! Welp. it's getting that much more interesting, then. For all the "we don't want you hoarding" that we've been hearing for years, there's a whole lot of features that actually require it (well beyond a handful of achievements) if users want to participate. Want recycle points? Better have stuff hoarded. Frag? Hoard. New items at Asmodeus, the Bakery (which I still haven't been able to touch even once) or a new "have x for y" achievement/forum title? Better have stuff on hand, or you'll pay out the ass. Saggi? Good luck with that.

I knew I forgot to mention stuff in my original post, so thanks for that. As bad and unworkable as the vault is, it's really going to impact things that much more if it's done away with.

Another complication that I don't think has been pointed out yet (if someone has pointed it out, I apologize):

Wizard Tokens. A quester can get 350 of these per day with a gold account. The Token Shop and Blackheart Hollow both restock too infrequently for a player to use up the wizard tokens there. The only other place to spend tokens (now that you killed off Elwood's shop just this week grrr) are vending machines. But for a user who already is trying to find shop space for the quest items they got to also find shop space for 175 vended items a day -- good god, just do the math.

Please listen to the passionate user feedback you're receiving and rethink this hare-brained plan.

Adding my two cents of 'terrible idea'.

• What about people who use their galleries AS ACTUAL GALLERIES and not just for hoarding? Many have more than 500 items - now you eliminate their motivation for using the site.
• Limiting hard-earned items (often bought through real $) just seems stupid even from a business perspective. Why discourage users from spending money on items in the site?
• Why not just retire the hoarder achievement? Or as someone else suggested, create an achievement for having a very small number of items in your account for x number of days?
• From Keith's recent posts, it doesn't look like he understands that people will just start moving all their excess items into vaults. Questing every day for 3 days will bring you to the proposed current item limit, so the items earned are going to have to go somewhere, assuming they don't all sell instantly (unrealistic). It'll effectively displace the server strain instead of removing it (unless the vaults are coded infinitely better than shops/galleries...?).

Or, plot twist. Keith & the subeta team expected all this backlash, and will 'compromise' and offer a slightly improved option... one that they were planning on all along. Users will feel appeased because their voices were heard, but in reality it's just a clever way to make the users view a new, constraining versions of shops/galleries in a more positive light.

Except that they've been talking for awhile about killing off the vending machines, too...

I know that this isn't quite what you're on about, but I've been slowly buying old wardrobe items for achievements. A lot of those have come from users that no longer play. I check to see if they're active/if they'd trade instead. I am limited on the amount of sP I have or I'd buy more of the things I want more often (economic problem and all). I've got 13k items in my wardrobe right now and am missing easily thousands more.

---Anyway, long ramble ahead:

I understand why this is supposed to happen. I know that I have way too much stuff. I do not remember reading about it before, I don't do Gold Accounts very often, I don't read the twitter or facebook (site things should really be on site). I'm sure that it has been said, I just wasn't on the right page to see it.

Everything on here wants to keep giving me items. Event? Poke a page every 5 minutes to try to find X. Didn't find X? Well, here's a bunch of unfraggable Os. Some of the games. Trying to get that achievement? Welp, would you like some more things too? No? Too bad. Quests? I give one item, I get back at least 1 item in return. I also try to buy the quest items from NPC shops instead, to get a little sP out of the economy. 99% of the time, I do not need that common reward item/s. It's clothes that are already in my wardrobe, collectibles that are already in their collection, food that has already been consumed. I feel like that needs to stop, because I'm not loading, clicking, deleting the things I don't need. Maybe make it so a rare item is RARELY given or those special only-from-this-quest items?

If I wanted items, I'd restock or vend (though I imagine that'll go away after so long). Hell, I'd burn my storage shop for a lump sum of what they'd sell for (4,507,382,861 sP). : P

However, I also need items. I never know when some new Genetech thing will come out. I don't know what future achievements will want. I don't know what might become wearable. I don't know what limited giveaway item would be PERFECT for some new pet. I don't know what will be some combination of those things! I am super fallible! And, new users need items. They need to be able to make money. Maybe if you have under 5 million, you get items from quests too? I don't know.

Maybe the frag shop could be a once a month restock for hard to find items (foods, plush, books, high value fighting drops, since those enemies are never coming back, etc). Say, beginning of the month it cycles out and in some stuff that's expensive to buy with sP. I'd have more of a reason to turn all my crap into crystals, since I could frag junk and make the other currency that could buy the things that my sP cannot. 1 week (or even day?) Gold accounts maybe? Right now, it restocks pretty sporadically and that might help to be rid of items.

Lastly, you make it hard to love you again, Subeta. I was just warming up again. Quit it.

I didn't read the entire thread and I'm tired, so I apologize if this has already been brought up. Keith explained why shops are more server-intensive than vaults even if people move their hoards to vaults. So would it be feasible to change galleries to act just like a public vault, completely stripped of all the shop code and pricing data etc that makes them slow? If people are going to move all their items to vaults anyway, it's kind of the same outcome, unless the public viewing aspect would cause more server strain than I'm assuming from my limited knowledge of these matters. Then leave the galleries unlimited, or with a reasonably high limit like 10-20k. Hoarder achieves still go and shops get the revamp and lower limit (but not 250/500 I hope).

Anyway, other than that, I echo everyone's sentiment that the initial limit is unreasonable and would be highly detrimental to the way the game plays right now. I expected the limit to be more like 2500 unique items for regular users and 5000 for GAs.

I also want to say that because Subeta constantly rewards hoarders via events and achievements requiring old items, I'm not yet on board with selling off my hoard. The money is tempting, but I also enjoy the security of knowing I can easily participate in events/automatically get achievements that ask for items I already own without having to pay insanely inflated user prices. Subeta has improved on this issue but I still don't fully trust them to stop rewarding hoarders.

yeah, listen, i TOTALLY understand that oversized shops are an issue, i really do. i've had my fair share of troubles loading people's massive shops, but that's not because they had more than 500 items, or even more than 1000 items; we're talking tens of thousands of items.

i don't think a limit of, say, 5000 for shops and 10000 for galleries would be unreasonable, because here's the thing: most people don't go that high. most people have maybe a few hundred shop items at any given time, and maybe a hundred or so gallery items. but the people who are really devoted to restocking, or collecting items in galleries, or need a place to keep track of pet treasure items, or whatever - they deserve that freedom to have the space for those items and not have to scramble to decide which items to put in the vault, what to sell, which gallery to put what in, etc.

i get that server strain is an issue (although, maybe more server space is in order as the site continues to grow, instead of cutting down on existing features?) but the majority of that strain isn't necessarily coming from the many users with a thousand or so items in their shops; it's coming from the people with tens or hundreds of thousands of items in their shops/galleries.

and yeah, i get the idea of starting with small limits to gauge how much of a difference it makes, and then raising the limits from there; i get that, ideally, these would not be the permanent numbers. but it's kind of scary because, like, what if the numbers DO stay that low? what if people trying to collect certain items are forced to split up their collections into multiple galleries, thereby defeating the purpose of the collection in the first place? people who quest and vend every day, or even every other day, will be filling their shops on a near-daily basis. so, what, they have to put the items that don't fit into their vault? just kind of, cram everything in there? in a jumbled, disorganized mess? yeah, that doesn't sound very fun tbh.

Can we get mass-movement before the achievement retires? It's been talked about/borderline promised for a long time, and part of why I've never bothered to go for them yet.

I'm also gonna mondo need it to ever be able to use my shops again.

Will people who've already paid to get shops over the limit (GA or not) be grandfathered or given any consideration whatsoever? Hope so.

Hell, 1500 for shops and 5000 for galleries is fine.

They're going to stay low. For months. Because staff is going to go and do something else for months, and it's going to take three site feedback threads to get the limit doubled.

250 items per shop is not realistic.

You want to make Subeta a fun game, and with this change, staff is not encouraging people to play Subeta. They are not encouraging player-to-player interaction.

Yeah, the thing I am the most worried about is that there are things I won't be able to buy anymore. Do I have to go through my WL and try and figure out which of the rare items are being sold by inactive or barely-active users, and then try and decide what I want most...?

If staff is really going to increase the limit of the new shops soon (although I really think it's going to go like just said, and it'll take years), I can tolerate that for my own shop for a little while. I can frag the real cheap stuff instead. Or maybe just give up on my shop like I always do when I don't have a GA.

But rare items disappearing forever because the user is inactive, or because they're barely active can't be bothered to put it back in? Nobody stocking quest items because they're too cheap to bother with? These are real problems that are making me worry more than any other announcement on Subeta ever has.

I knew this would eventually happen and not too broken over it, and I understand why it's being done... But what gets me is the size limit. 250/500 ? You have to hope everything you get from quests sell within a day or two or you won't be able to stock anything. And that's just quests alone. Forget actually putting a gallery together.

I have four shops/galleries... I have to downsize those. A lot of items I save is because of TC's and knowing I will eventually need them. We're supposed to anticipate needing ingredients for various features (baking !), but this vastly limits how we can save items for that so we aren't screwed over in prices.

Oh boy, this isn't going to be fun.

And here I was wanting to be active and finishing all my quests, every day, when my wrists are healed. Yeah right. What's even the point of playing Subeta now?

What's next? Am I personally going to be in trouble for having a bunch of huge pet treasures? When will a limit be added to those?