from what i've gathered re. native american headdresses (aka warbonnets, more specifically those of the plains indians'), they are sacred items that are absolutely off-limits to anyone not within their culture. that being said, most native american cultures (i.e. their traditional practices, spirituality, beliefs, items) are restricted; no one is permitted to take or use their respective cultural aspects without explicit permission from an actual tribe if they are not of native american heritage. wearing a plains indian warbonnet as a non-native, or even simply portraying one on a non-native is basically considered to be insulting, ignorant, and cultural appropriation.

regardless tho, i do believe that the headdress should be altered! i really like 's suggestion of renaming it to "native vetan headdress." it alters the context entirely, places it within the subeta universe, and eliminates any offense imo.

on the rolling pin, i do think that the description should at least be altered a bit. it's p awful, without regard to it being a tribute item.

sources: http://apihtawikosisan.com/hall-of-shame/an-open-letter-to-non-natives-in-headdresses/ http://nativeappropriations.com/2010/04/but-why-cant-i-wear-a-hipster-headdress.html

I think that's the whole point, though? Haha I mean, I don't think anyone here has said they want the item removed (that I recall seeing, anyways), just that 1. the description is extremely offensive and 2. if we want to be technical Indian's are from India-- and I don't recall them having feathered headdresses (then again I'm American so I could have missed that lesson) the people who wore said headdresses are Native Americans. So the item is incorrect and extremely offensive in it's current form?

Just renaming it to Native American and fixing the description would do, but it would be nice if someone on staff would chime in on this one way or another. It'd be a simple fix however I think it's a great opportunity to remove a piece of the real world and redo the item for subeta; maybe one of the races of subeta have a culture behind the headdresses and they could be redone in several colors etc.

The act of considering particular animals as sacred isn't a farfetched concept, and I think it'd be interesting if a particular people considered a feathered pet as such (Festers, lains, Irions?)

Lol look at them telling you how you should feel about your own culture. Ain't it grand?

I think people might be jumping to the remove it assumption because the people who are more radical about these things are more likely to insist the items' existences are offensive. IIRC the person who made the gypsy thread wanted the outfit removed completely. Most people would see it and just notice the name and description.

I'd have to agree with what others are saying. Personally I don't really care if it's changed or not, but the item could benefit from an update and and I think it'd be neat if were made from Fester feathers. Maybe Irion. Maybe it could even inspire a host of other items to match.

Why the hell are there pages of discussion about the headdress and almost nothing about the first item?

Guys I am SO, SO relaxed when it comes to stuff like this but the fucking Spousal Attitude Adjuster is the one item on this site that makes me uncomfortable. Its existence baffles me.

That first word takes it straight from "I Love Lucy slapstick" to "kind of horrifying spousal abuse."

Just make it the Attitude Adjuster and I swear I'll never complain again

Possibly because most people are in mutual agreement that the rolling pin is unquestionably fucked up, where as the headdress is less clear cut to some.

But yeah, rolling pin definitely needs to be fixed. There is no innocent looney tunes reference here. And tbh, the only real faceless character that I can remember threatening others with spoons and rolling pins was the racist mammy character in Tom and Jerry.

I'd like to point out that I think it's great that people are upset about the the rolling pin's reference to spousal abuse and not necessarily just abuse against women.

Some people have the silly idea that men can be victims and women can't be abusive. I think it's great that the users on this site aren't part of that.

Removing it or demanding to have it removed is taking it too far/asking too much, same for the Gypsy items. There are a great deal of "edgy" "offensive" "disgusting" "degrading" items on subeta, and staff have up until recently given all of these a golden stamp of approval.

The argo line names are horrible (purple heart isn't as bad but booy agent orange wowowow what's more offensive? The term Gypsy or what America did to generations of Vietnamese and Veterans?? Apparently, if you ask subeta-- the term Gypsy is bad and the generations of destroyed human/animal/natural life deserves a mocking clothing line named after it! Edgy), the fetus pops are rather sick, and the shock value graveyard pets will always be there to stay classy. However, those are all visual things that'd require more effort to undo (outside of Agent Orange, but hey that's acceptable considering the smashing FDA of America has recently A-Okayed an active ingrediant of Agent Orange for use in our food supply-- yummy! glad I eat organic)

So, I'm glad that at least subeta is taking small steps to rename some of their more offensive items. I understand some people find these things great but the real question here is does subeta really want to appeal to people who find roadkill animals and racism funny |D;

Tbh the rolling pin is just as bad, but I feel like it's right up there ^ with the other shining stars of subeta as the person who had it made is adamant that it'll never be changed-- just like the rest. Not saying it shouldn't be changed (or at least renamed to Attitude Adjuster, as I can think of a few people at work I wouldn't mind taking a blunt object to), but yeah.

Everytime I see it I think of that character too, and that is not a good thing at all xD;;

Haha, good point.

Oh wow and that was BEFORE I read the description. Honestly, out of all the items I've seen people complain about this is the only one that's made me go 'whoa.'

I actually was one of the people that was like BACK THE FUCK UP when Agent Orange came out. It was actually right around the time I took my Vietnam class in high school, so it was especially a hot topic for me because my teacher did not at all brush over what it did. That, or napalm. I didn't like Purple Heart either. But we were all ignored, while Loish got a rename. Seriously? Stolen art is more important than the devastation of an entire ecosystem, and a medal given to wounded American soldiers? Seriously?

Aren't you all being silly about this? It is not racist or offensive to give an item its proper name (in the case of the headdress). As for the spousal attitude adjuster, it is just a humorous reference to slapstick comedy. As for "racist mammy", well, what is so racist about that? Mammies WERE black.

The attitude adjuster is literally referencing beating your spouse. In what way is that humorous?

A mammy is racist. It's a stereotype of black women.

http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/mammies/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_archetype http://www.wisegeek.com/what-should-i-know-about-the-mammy-archetype.htm

I get a little sick everytime I pass the Agent Orange stuff, still. I remember the board when it first came out and I was pretty disgusted when it was tried to be passed off as "educational" when in all reality it's a mockery of what happened. The heartburn skin, is quite awful (it's late and I really lack a better term off the top of my head) to look at but it's not mocking the condition it's based off of and it IS educational because upon learning it's based on something real the first thing anyone should do is google it and +1 any abnormalities they're dealing with.

Agent Orange, was a mockery and what that crap did to the people/land/animals/everything it came in contact with should be put right up there with what the Nazi's did on the "see this crap?? don't do it. Ever again." list. It shouldn't be an edgy clothes name, fake pixel clothes or real clothes.

Also, I think a good way to think of this board/any board would be:

If you wanted to know if something was ridiculously out of line or not, consider going up to the person it's referencing and saying it to their face. Do you think you'd get the shit slapped out of you? No? Then it's probably fine. Yes? Then it's probably not okay and it should probably be changed.

I remember a staffer saying they thought it was just a band name. Considering the entire Argo line is referencing military terms, it would be out of place for one line to suddenly be a band name, and not the actual devastating chemical used in Vietnam.

I remember that, and I wasn't amused |D As a person who tried to join the armed forces and was almost done with bootcamp only to become aware of 9 fractures in my legs and forced out-- I suffered a great deal of depression and seeing something so openly mocked by a site that regarded something that just crippled me (mentally and physically).. well, it made me feel warm and fuzzy.

I also don't get why it couldn't be colored differently (it wasn't like the outfit HAD to be orange, it was literally just a normal looking outfit-- I remember it getting some beef about that too) and given a different name. Or take it out of the Argo line, or use some creativity to rename it.

Anyways, I'm glad this is being eyed and that the headdress will hopefully be redone (or at least renamed if nothing else). Both because the name and description need it but also because it's a golden opportunity to kill two birds (pun intended) with one headdress-- removing that and making a bit more subeta lore (poor Festers xD)

The item's in dire need of a revamp ANYWAY. And there's so many pets with feathered wings on site. Montres, hippotus, clawsions, irions - not just the birds.

Thank you so much, it's really nice to know things like this are being discussed

I almost feel sorry for you, having that kind of opinion. Native Americans, even if you ignore the "Indian" part of the item, are not a Thanksgiving costume. Portraying them as one is offensive.

Whatever it's referencing, an item suggesting you beat your spouse with it is absolutely not appropriate imo. Domestic abuse is a serious thing that happens to real people every day and not something to be made light of.

As for, "Mammies WERE black." Well, no shit. It's a racist stereotype, specifically for black people.

To those wondering, I said disregard the name and description change because I agreed they probably should be changed, but people were insinuating that it would be offensive for an avatar on a virtual pet site to be sporting any sort of headdress that is based on any sort of traditional native american headdress and I find that to be utterly ridiculous, the same as I do that someone would find the argo purple heart line offensive. This is a virtual website, and if someone wants their HA to be a purple heart earning war hero blah blah, then do it, because this isn't reality and you're not actually walking around town in a mock military uniform with a fake purple heart medal pinned to your coat. I think the headdress argument was being taken way too far and completely out of context. A large bit of the argument to change the item seemed to be that only someone who earned the right to wear a warbonnet ought to be able to sport one on subeta, and that just doesn't make sense, change the name, as there are no indians, nor native americans living on subeta, and the debate ought to be over IMHO.

You don't get to tell people how to feel about important parts of their culture being used as dress up pieces, in real life, or virtually. You just don't get to do that, end of story. It's not your place, you have no right.