Rule Change: No More Site-Specific Options Needed For Commission Spots

March 27, 2023 4:14 pm

Hello, everyone!

Subeta has had a long-standing rule for several years now that users offering creative products or services need to have at least one commission quote that cites a price in CSC or other site-specific options. This was intended for several purposes, one of the big ones being to prevent scammers from setting up shop in pure USD.

This rule has been subject to a lot of discussion and debate, along with pleas to re-examine it, and we’ve decided to give that a shot! We’re going to rescind this requirement for ALL commission types (coding, writing, artwork, etc.) and give it (about) a sixty-day period to look at how it’s going. At that sixty-day period, if it has dramatically increased site traffic to the point where there’s a very clear cost of relaxing it versus how much we’re paying on servers and database, we’ll explain what’s going on and solicit further feedback on how best to balance the situation. Or, if we need more data, I’ll post to that; the big take-away is that y’all will get an update at sixty days.

EDIT FOR FURTHER EXPLANATION: To clarify at what the sixty days assessment is meant to be, it is not that the site-specific slots rules go back into effect at that point, the change about not needing site-specific commission spots is in effect unless otherwise and SPECIFICALLY noted. The sixty days is us assessing how it is going on backend from everything to server traffic that affects and does not offset the change in base Subeta operating costs to overall pattern of site of activity. IF this incurs a huge amount of site traffic that pushes Subeta way into the red and affects our ability to deliver a fun experience to all our users, OR if there is an increased pattern of scammers specifically showing up for USD and then bouncing without delivering, thus making it harder for the creative community overall, we will be laying out those issues to y'all, the userbase, and discussing what changes are useful and feasible to find a balance if it is even necessary. It is not about making anyone justify keeping the change, it is about us being transparent in what we're taking into account and why IF issues crop up.

We still encourage people to keep offering your CSC/sP/etc spots in addition to USD, of course, and we know the people who’ve already paid for those openings look forward to getting their completed work. But we hope that being more flexible with the established and aspiring creative community going forward gives you more reasons to support Subeta and invite others to do so as well!

April 1, 2023, 11:38 am by

At least one artist I spoke with prefers payment in CSC over regular currency, so fears of no artists choosing CSC commissions are unlikely to become reality.

This has a potential to encourage more artists and other creators, both ones who would prefer to take only US dollars or Euros in payment, but also those who would like CSC but didn't feel their skills were competitive might be encouraged by a smaller number of CSC offers to start taking CSC commissions.

March 30, 2023, 1:57 am by

I don't see the problem. I would not pay any artist up front without at least a rough detailed sketch. Most artists I run across don't even make me pay until the art is completely finished. They will watermark the version before payment.

Artists/Creators should be able to prioritize whatever currency they see fit imo. They are the ones putting forth their time and effort to deliver a service that is a luxury to begin with.

I also strongly believe that many artists will leave a CSC or sP slot open regardless, albeit they may not rush your delivery.

March 28, 2023, 8:03 pm by

i asked this question once a long time ago (probably a few years ago now) and the answer i remember getting was that they didn't want to advertise while the site is essentially in the process of being transitioned to "v2." right now, we have a site split over v1 and v2 and i agree that'd be a bad experience for new users joining. but... idk, ever since bug stopped working on the site, i feel like we haven't seen any progress on actually getting onto v2, which says to me it will be at least (optimistically) many more years before staff wants to try getting more traffic to the site. we've been told they cant afford to hire new devs, which i get, but without getting more people joining the site, i imagine the amount of money coming in has pretty much been a flat line for years, which means there won't in the foreseeable future be enough money to hire another developer. so feels like there's no winning unless staff decides that it's worth it to advertise despite the current split between v1 and v2 in an attempt to bring in enough revenue to hire another developer and finish the transition out

March 28, 2023, 4:55 pm by

comment section is here to comment and talk to others. Might need to take a chill pill

March 28, 2023, 4:21 pm by

Can SOME admin jump in and stop the bickering in here??????

March 28, 2023, 4:19 pm by

Why are you jumping to conclusions? If I was here just to troll, my account would be restricted already.

March 28, 2023, 10:38 am by

I am glad for the artists, and I hope it goes well! :)

March 28, 2023, 10:34 am by

what are you talking about?? That isnt how normal people shop for things.

March 28, 2023, 10:20 am by

That's a you problem. Why are you buying csc ahead of time and then looking for an artist? You are definitely a troll.

March 28, 2023, 10:15 am by

while this scenario is possible i guess, it seems extreme. the CSC that the user has leftover is hardly "useless" since theres so many other thing to do with CSC on the site, or they could even just wait and use the CSC on a commission later. CSC is also pretty easy to buy whenever someone wants, so you dont need to buy the CSC before commissioning an artist, since its so quick to add it to your account anyway I really don't think there will be an issue. Now I can see if the case if someone has finally saved up CSC from other methods having it beforehand, but even so if the person they want to commission is closed you can always ask to be put on a waitlist

March 28, 2023, 10:01 am by

While I understand why some users might be upset about this change, I’d like them to consider that there is a real person on the other end of every transaction and they deserve to be compensated for their time and effort in the way that they desire. Having to offer site currency slots when advertising on the forums has driven a lot of artists away from the site and onto discord or other mediums entirely. Site currency isn’t real money and its value is a lot lower than it used to be. It’s not considered acceptable anymore to force artists to accept virtual currency (nor do I think it ever should have been, for any site, this is not me railing against Subeta at all) and that’s just how it’s going to be. You adapt to the times or not, that’s up to you, but this is a change that I think is a long time coming and will be a relief to those taking commissions. They’ve got bills to pay. Thank you to the Subeta staff for listening to feedback on this, and for putting in the work to figure out how to best implement this to the site.

March 28, 2023, 9:50 am by

You usually only start looking for stuff to buy AFTER you have the money; this is the same with on-site commissions. You don't necessarily have to know beforehand whether you can pay w/ CSC or not.

March 28, 2023, 9:47 am by

I agree with you. Seems like such an odd situation. User A BOUGHT CSC for a specific item and now has "leftover" CSC and is upset they cannot use it for commissions? Use the left over CSC for other things, and if you knew you wanted something commissioned then spend the money you spent on the initial CSC on the commissions

March 28, 2023, 9:40 am by

Your example makes no sense and sounds like a troll.

Your remaining csc isn't an artists problem to accommodate. Don't have the use, don't buy the commission. Simple.

March 28, 2023, 9:15 am by

The original rule has been in place due to scams, as the post states, but there could be problems in the following scenario:

User buys CSC, in order to spend it on (for example) a CW, a gold-account token, a billboard to put up, and a commission to try the CW market and see how it works.
User, with 1000 CSC left after the others were spent, decides to look for a commission.
The only artist with open slots for commissions demands a payment of $10, and it's mandatory to use USD.
Because of the "All sales are final. There are absolutely no refunds." rule, the user has essentially wasted $10 on useless CSC, and becomes angry and leaves Subeta.

The old rule has essentially ensured that if you buy site-specific currency, you can use it on anything being offered on the site.

Have you seen the episode from Simpsons where they go to Itchy & Scratchy Land, buy tickets and then buy $200 or so worth of "I&S Money" and then instantly discover that I&S Money is useless since none of the stores accept it?

March 28, 2023, 12:21 am by

a long overdue change, good to see it finally happened

March 27, 2023, 11:34 pm by

I think this is great, and hope it works out. Thank you.

March 27, 2023, 10:57 pm by

it's not Subeta if there is no fuss about anything and everything. nice change for the artists et al

March 27, 2023, 9:45 pm by

I appreciate Staff's efforts to be more transparent & adapting to changing times in regards to the hard work, time, effort, & energy that the creative community puts in to everything that they do! Honestly, it's refreshing to see in a game like this & why I'm still playing Subeta~ ❤️ Like, they aren't just making a decision without considering possible consequences or whatever. Instead, they're saying that they'll address any possible issues as they arise, want feedback from the user base, & have even set a clear timeline for testing this out. To me, that sounds respectful & transparent & I'm hoping that it'll work out well for everyone involved.

March 27, 2023, 9:06 pm by

Correction from spell check: Thank you for listening to us and we appreciate it!

March 27, 2023, 8:52 pm by

Thank you fir listening to us and we appreciate it.

March 27, 2023, 8:15 pm by

"But per the edit, if the added site traffic is driving Subeta way into the red in terms of operating costs in terms of overall budget..."

This is weird to me. Aren't we supposed to want more active people to be here daily regardless of them spending money? Reminds me of the slug lady from Parks and Rec. "I want them to be happy. but not TOO happy." We want new players, but not TOOMANY new players...

Don't you make ad revenue off of clicks? I know the business model every business is thirsty for is the pay to win one, but a pet site like subeta was appealing to me to begin with because it was possible to have some nice things without paying USD to get them. If I felt pressure to spend money constantly I would leave. (why I'm not interested in Dappervolk anymore and I backed their fudging kickstarter) Even with an event now there are hardly 500 people on at a time and there is always something that is running behind or poorly or causing an extension because of unexpected whatever. This should already be a priority. If -maybe- 50 more people join via word of mouth is that really going to be an issue in cost and upkeep and site accessibility?

On that note, are we relying only on word of mouth to bring new people in? I don't use FB so IDK if there are ads for us there but I've never seen one on youtube or like... anywhere... You gotta spend money to make money bby. I love it here and I'm pumped this rule is being seriously reviewed. But it just feels weird to worry about new people joining and causing the site to like crash or whatever.

March 27, 2023, 7:35 pm by

There's always that risk of artists just bouncing. I don't think it's fair to be like, "Oh, if Subeta suffers from it, we'll put it back in place." But that's me and my experience with artistic commissions off Subeta.

March 27, 2023, 7:31 pm by

Interesting.. I don’t offer commissions currently here on Subeta and the artists I would have liked to commission from were always fully booked with CSC/sP (understandably so).

I am curious to see where this is going - the explanation is a bit weird. To me it sounds like you expect a lot of new users setting up shop here? Or missing out on possible income by people having to buy CSC to commission? I totally get that, I just feel like it’s worded way to complicated haha.

March 27, 2023, 7:13 pm by

Your "heat death of the universe etc" made my burst out laughing 😆😂🤣

March 27, 2023, 6:13 pm by

Not the rules change I was hoping to hear about, but it's a start. :)

March 27, 2023, 5:58 pm by

Okay. TY.

Well I'm glad my initial read was incorrect. I'm happy that me thinking that Creatives were supposed to be accomplishing some kind of 'proof of worthiness' in that 60 day period was wrong.

I'm still a little uncertain with your wording, and I feel like maybe that's by design. I get Subeta is a business and needs to cover angles so they don't get 'caught up in it' later, so I think that's maybe why I still feel like I'm not getting just a basic answer. (Yes it's a rule change vs 'the 'plan' is...' it's a rule change.)

IDK how I feel anymore, but I just need a break for the evening.

March 27, 2023, 5:57 pm by

Thank you for this update and explanation. I hope it works out for the good. :D <3

March 27, 2023, 5:50 pm by

Our plan right now, talking three months/six months/a year forward/heat death of the universe etc, is to have this in effect. So it is more than a trial run, it is a rules change. However, as you say, short-term we want to be be prepared for immediate problems or steps that need to be taken, and long-term keeping in mind that we might need different /additional new rules need to be added in place to prevent unforeseen issues as they pop up. Plans are just tricky things and we want to stay limber in how we approach things for everyone's sake.

March 27, 2023, 5:40 pm by

Okay I've read the edit, and I just want to clarify that I'm not misunderstanding again:

The rule change specifically is NOT a trial run? But the 60-day period is more there to see if different / additional new rules need to be added in place to prevent unforeseen issues?

Or is it that the rule change is temporary UNTIL staff feels comfortable making it permanent, and the 60 day period is to see whether or not an immediate issue occurs and steps need to be taken?

(Or of course, if something entirely different, please sum it up to me like I'm the dumbest person you've ever met because clearly I'm not getting it if that's the case.)

March 27, 2023, 5:40 pm by

Ah, good!

I realize it's more general than specific, but that's because we aren't trying to hit some specific target. We expect this to go well, and not to have to make any changes at all at that sixy-day mark, it's likely to be 'yes, this is great, full steam ahead'. Forum stickies are being updated to this, we're looking forward to people exploring their options, and we don't expect any issues.

March 27, 2023, 5:35 pm by

That does clear it up to a degree for me.

March 27, 2023, 5:26 pm by

I've put more of an explanation into the news post, does it help explain where we're coming from?

March 27, 2023, 5:23 pm by

thank you! i'll try and make a thread after work today :) (or if anyone else lurking agrees and wants to start it up, please do and i'll reply with my support as well)

March 27, 2023, 5:23 pm by

I hope it yields promising results!

March 27, 2023, 5:22 pm by

It is less about revenue and more about site operating costs. We aren't expecting anyone to make up a certain amount of revenue to keep this change or anything, we're expecting it will be a net positive. But per the edit, if the added site traffic is driving Subeta way into the red in terms of operating costs in terms of overall budget or we get a flood of unethical people looking to exploit it, we'll want to open a discussion on how best to handle this to work for everyone.

March 27, 2023, 5:21 pm by

I would advise putting that into a thread on the art market discussions page and pinging the mini mods for there. We had some issues with that on the cw forums with shops needing to get locked and hit page three and stuff even when traffic was dying because artists were leaving and submissions changed so we didn't need to slot anymore and the mods were good about discussing and adjusting the rules to when you could start a new board. Hopefully they'll be able to do something to help in the art market as well (I'd love to see that thrive again - lots of us do like to buy standard art too but see boards that haven't been posted on in a long time and can't reply to because of existing rules about reviving dead boards etc or we assume the person is inactive in the market because it's been so long). If you do make a thread, please comment me and I'll happily come post my support for an update to the rule change and site my issues with trying to find artists with the current state of the art market thread rules!

March 27, 2023, 5:20 pm by

Tbh I don't understand how this puts pressure on content creators?

Assuming I read this correctly the temporary-perm rule change means people selling their craft are currently not required to offer on on-site currency option, thus meaning no potential income on the subetas behalf? Their gain is foot traffic, maybe ad revenue assuming there isn't adblocking, and hoping people once active will come back.

I suppose pressure in regards to convincing people to come back or join but personally I don't endorse a product I don't support.

Either way this is an interesting choice and considering the rising costs of basically everything across the world, twenty bucks might be the difference for someone having food or going without. Especially when the prices, last I saw anyway, are a lot lower than what I see in fandom circles. More creative foot traffic and a relaxed freedom of expression might be more welcoming so those who create can earn what they deserve.

Or maybe it won't, who knows.

March 27, 2023, 5:18 pm by

thank you ! i didnt bring it up in the forum topic to stay on topic, but i have been thinking about those rules since the topic came up. it would be awesome if those could be revisited as well. appreciate you! <3

March 27, 2023, 5:17 pm by

That is a good point, and something to ask the minimods about in terms of changes!

March 27, 2023, 5:07 pm by

I'm excited for this.

Hope things work out.

Might set up a tarot reading shop on here.

March 27, 2023, 5:01 pm by

Thank you staff for listening to creatives and considering this rule change! <3 It's hard out there for us, especially with inflation. I'm still going to offer csc options when I have free time, or when we aren't hurting for money. :)

March 27, 2023, 5:01 pm by

I can see from your responses that it wasn't mean to sound as pressure filled or dire as it's coming across but I think maybe the post needs a bit of rewording or clearer explanation since so many of us are not understanding. I'm not even a creative who sells services here, I'm a patron of the site with my subscription and of some of the artists who make and recolor CWs and art for me and I'm trying to look on the bright side here on how to get them back fully onsite but it's looking bleak even with this because of the wording in the post :/

March 27, 2023, 5:00 pm by

I see a lot of interpretations of this post as meaning that you will only keep the change if the site traffic increases dramatically.

But my interpretation is the opposite: if not much changes in terms of volume of site traffic, you'll probably keep the changes for a longer period; but if suddenly a dramatically larger number of people are trying to sell things on Subeta, you might decide the change is too expensive to keep.

I don't interpret this as putting any stress or onus on creators. They can go on as they were, or they can choose to open commissions for real money and not site currencies, in the next 60 days at least.

Then wait and see if there's some bad effects from this or if everything seems to be going fine.

March 27, 2023, 5:00 pm by

excited for the rules to be relaxed and im really glad for those artists that will have the opportunity but if i can have a little gripe moment... i would LOVE to do some commissions on this site (for whatever currency), but my issue is that i am not a CW artist and thats the only art market that people seem interested. the normal art boards are so slow, my thread got no responses and shuffled off the first page, never to be seen again... since i'm not allowed to bump it (and also not allowed to make a new one since i cant have more than one active). hopefully this rule change brings people out of the woodworks who would also like to buy art (for whatever currency) because the non cw-art market feels dead as a doornail. not the fault of the CW crowd or the site in general, with the site having less members it makes sense less people are buying art in general i know not everyone can afford to get some art (for whatever currency) but at this point ive lost any hope of getting any commissions on subeta anyway.

sorry for the personal rant, i do really like that this rule is going to make things more flexible for everyone, and i'm glad the staff has listened and also turned around on this pretty quickly. maybe more of the art forum rules can be revisited in the future since the pace of the board has slowed a lot

March 27, 2023, 4:56 pm by

Came here to say hell yeah (i've just been taking comms completely offsite since I don't need any site currency) but now i'm confused about what the 60 day thing is all about? xD What are you expecting to happen in 60 days exactly?

This whole line here: "At that sixty-day period, if it has dramatically increased site traffic to the point where there’s a very clear cost of relaxing it versus how much we’re paying on servers and database" what's that supposed to mean? How's this rule change gonna affect site revenue (that's what im understanding from this, but ngl it was worded a bit vaguely so i might have misread)?

March 27, 2023, 4:56 pm by

We're trying to keep it open for now because we know this might be a big change...or it might not. At that sixty-day review it could be, this is going great, everyone's happy, let's keep it! Or if there are other things that come up, we can lay out the situation and figure out any extra steps IF they are needed. We just want to be transparent on the process.

March 27, 2023, 4:56 pm by

I am not sure if 60 days is long enough and the way this is worded seems like there's going to be pressure on the people offering commissions.

March 27, 2023, 4:51 pm by

, oh i didn't want to improve you, but since i always need a translator i like to ask if i got this translated correctly. i'm glad that the things in the forum are also read and reacted to. there are so many good ideas there that could help the game and bring us more fun and less error rates.

March 27, 2023, 4:51 pm by

<3 <3 <3

Use @username to mention someone. Supports markdown formatting.

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Rule Change: No More Site-Specific Options Needed For Commission Spots

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