Orcs endless journey of confusion
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This topic will include mentions of gender confusion, body issues, sexuality
Intro:
Hello there! -waves shyly-
This is the very first time I will write something gender-related on the internet. I am not to familiar with lots of terms and the community and hope you can bear with uneducated me. The only people I ever talked to about gender consider themselves cis, so I don't know many different view points, except what wikipedia and the internet taught me. In case I say something at some point that may reflect my personal confused thoughts right now but may be seen as not political correct or even discriminating please take the time to educate me. I am open for criticism and learning any time.
The main reason I will write this long wall of text and monologue is for me to have my thoughts written down. To clear my head and order my brain.
The reason why I will put my thoughts down here and not on a piece of paper is, that while I can't expect anyone to take the time to read through this and to reply, I do hope that maybe somebody feels like helping me order my thoughts. Or at least to find somebody out there that might be able to relate. That is the main issue I have... I feel like I don't relate... to a lot of people, thoughts and views.
Where the general confusion starts:
I consider myself genderless. That being said I have trouble understanding the concept of gender in general. I know gender must be more than just a social construct, otherwise there wouldn't be an explanation for trans people. Yet I never experienced or felt it being more than social constructs, social roles, social expectations to me. Yes, this is the part I might come across intolerant. I'd love to understand (honestly, this question bothers me for years), but explaining the feel of gender to me might be as difficult as explaining colours to somebody being blind from birth. I don't feel gender. I've heard people defining their gender over their sexuality, over their interests, over not being able to imagine having the body of the opposite sex and over how they like to be seen and approached by other people. But I have my problems with those definitions.
I personally don't see a relation between sex and gender. Every gender can have any kind of sexuality. It's not linked in any way as far as I know. And interests vary as well. There are guys who like to dance and girls who love soccer, females who are into cars and males who are into fashion. It's a social construct in my opinion that particular interests are considered to be manly or girly. And to the part of not being able to imagine having the opposite body.... Well, I can. No problem at all. And I wouldn't mind the slightest to have a male body. It would be just as okay for me as having a female body (admittedly probably a bit better). There are pros and cons with both body types. Some I can live with, some that (would) cause me huge problems. And to the last point of defining gender by how to be seen and approached by others: I dislike that there are differences in how males and females are being seen, approached and treated in general. I am all for equal rights. For everybody. No matter their look, appearance or sex. I wish for everybody not to feel like having to change anything about their appearance or about being themselves just for the sake of being viewed differently by the outside world.
I usually follow the science approach on things, but even the neurosciences can't see any differences in feminine or masculine brains. (Or female and male brains, for that matter). So I need some other approach to the gender-question.
Yeah, so if somebody is able to explain the feel of gender a bit better to me than what I was able to grasp so far, please don't hesitate to do so!
History of not fitting into female stereotypes:
When I was in Kindergarten and Primary School I used to be more the tomboy kind of girl. I didn't mind wearing dresses (as long as they were comfortable and I was allowed to get them dirty), but I preferred climbing trees, playing computer games, playing soccer and other ball games, digging in the mud and hanging around with the boys. I had female friends as well and didn't mind playing with dolls or children's role-playing games with them, but I always enjoyed hanging out with the boys more.
A lot changed when I was 11 and got into a catholic school for girls. I didn't share any interests with my class mates (I wasn't into horses or fashion or the singers of boybands) and I soon found myself alienated. I felt like I wasn't like them. And nothing I could do (and pityful young me tried... tried a lot) would make me fit in. And it wasn't just about interests. It was about views. While others cared about when to start shaving which body parts and what deo to use I was more interested in books, political views and finding out about how the world works. I wasn't interested in what I was supposed to wear, but in how systems work and what it means to be human. I think that was a big thing. A lot of my class mates were trying to find out what it means to be a woman. I was trying to find out what it means to be a human. It was a very difficult and painful time. (The changes my body went trough as well.)
Later on I did find female friends in school and female and male friends outside of school.
In university I was the only female being allowed in the so called "Men's Club", a group of otherwise male friends who met regularly and did stuff like smoking pipes, drinking whiskey, talking about philosophical questions and watching good old gangster movies. I also refused to join the "Girl's Club", which was a group consistent of the other females of our group of friends who met at the same time to bake, eat strawberries, drink wine and watch romantic comedies. It was never a question in which one I belonged and I think it was just obvious for everyone else as well, it just felt right. It still feels right to feel more part of a group of male friends than feeling part of a group of female friends. Difficult to describe.
I still have very close friends of both sexes, but tend to be able to have deeper conversations and feel more understood by and related to males. My job and hobbies are neither considered typically male or female. Even from my flat you couldn't get female or male vibes. Pretty unisex.
Some information about me to put me in context, or how the outside world might view me:
I turned 31 this year and I grew up and live in Germany. I am a female (talking sex and appearance here, not gender and mind) and I do look it as well. I have long hair, sometimes wear make-up, sometimes skirts or dresses and I have a female build no binder could ever hide. I am also obese. Also I am single. For over 6 years now.
Body issues in my mind and in the eyes of others:
I am okay with my body the way I modified it. It's not my dream-body (a body I will never ever reach with no surgery in the world, but in my dreams I often have it) and it is not (yet) the body I am aiming for (next goals: weight loss, dreads and more tattoos), but it doesn't cause me any serious psychological or physical problems. I take birth control which makes me not have any periods anymore and ever since I feel so, so, so much better! One of the best decisions I've ever made. I can't imagine ever having to go through those again. I can also not ever imagine being pregnant or giving birth, the thought of that happening to my body repulses me. Luckily I don't ever want to be a parent neither.
One of the reasons I want to appear as female as possible to the outside, is that I don't want to be seen as butch. Through my way of acting and behaving and talking and being tall and big I already sometimes come across "rougher" than other females and I still wish to... fit in somehow? Not being seen as a threat in any way? Feel attractive to more people? Not being questioned? I am an all or nothing person and being that I can never have the appearance I might (not even sure) prefer, I rather settle for a full female appearance. While I do find other more androgynous looking people quite attractive, I can't see myself that way. I can't even create male HAs. I feel like "Faking it" whenever I try.
Sexuality and relationships:
Yeah... well... I think nowadays you'd say I am pansexual? I still consider myself bisexual, but technically it's the same. I feel attracted to humans, not sexes or genders.
How I said I've been single for six years now, but I had two long-term relationships to males before and I had several affairs and experiences with both males and females.
It's difficult to find somebody fitting for me though. Not only due to gender issues. I don't seem to fit into the search criteria for most people. Guys being attracted to me tend to see me more like a buddy once they get to know me. Just last year I had been seeing this guy regularly, we've had great times inside and outside of the bed until he told me really proud at one of our "dates" that he found a girlfriend now. He was shocked when I told him that the friendship was more than just a friendship+ for me.
The guy I've been with the longest is asexual and stayed single ever after we split up. We are still good friends to this point.
Girls seem to not find me attractive until they get to know me very well and tend to have a habit of going back to encounters with cis guys after "experimenting" with me. Weirdly enough I don't think I've ever even been flirted at by a lesbian, as far as I know of. Even though I tried to get into contact at gay bars and clubs. -shrugs-
I don't mind being single until I find the right person, I do enjoy my freedom and independence. It doesn't help with feeling alienated though. Sometimes I wish there was somebody I could spend the weekends with that loves me unconditionally and that I love unconditionally. Someone to explore the world with, to experience and exchange views, to share interests and movies and music and to go on adventures with.
Outro:
Yeah, I think that are my thoughts right now. In my everyday life I hardly think about the whole gender confusion and what impact it has on several parts of my life. Sometimes those thoughts do get triggered and come to the surface and make me wonder.... and question.... and feeling insecure. Thanks everyone who took the time to read through all this. And thanks also to the people who only read a bit and didn't get to this point. And thanks in advance to anyone commenting on this pile of brain farts. Be it in a critical, advising or just whatever way ;)
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Edit: So I've read through all of this and something that speaks very deeply to me is this one:
"I was trying to find out what it means to be a human. "
Many people aren'T psychologically able to grasp the concept. Not to mention emotional intelligence. I loved to read as well. No interest in these typical chatter about boys and sexuality. - I am demisexual and also after a while knowing I was bi, I define myself as pan as well. The reason I can relate to is that you fall in love with the mind and the soul of the person first.
I am 33 and still have no clue whatsoever. - But I can totally understand the "being disgusted" by childbirth and the body issues (I already have enough) also maybe depression that comes with it for some. - Might really consider getting this "stickimplant" for hormones bc I seriously HATE having my days as well.
Atm I am trying to get my body to size 36 so I can use anything to hide my breasts. (fun fact: I always felt better crossdressing.) But yeah, the pressure isn't that bad that I'd use hormone theraphy. And that is what people confuses. (My sister isn't that supportive as well. And I usually talk about everything with her. And vice versa.)
I feel sorry that it appears as though you've been used (the "experimenting" part) - if not pls correct me in this. But I can relate to that. I've never had a "happy" relationshi(t)p at this point.
The only thing one can do is trying to work on oneself. Until you are somewhat happy if you look in the mirror. And the other problems regarding mastering life in general.
Also: I see no brain farts, I think your post is well structured and thought out. (Unlike mine, that's why I seldomly write. lol )
Thank you for sharing. <3 _ OMG This is so much me in relation! Tomboy here as well. (Still likes dresses) Must check. I was SO upset if I wasn't allowed to play with the boys some days. :v Climbing trees faster than others: check. Pansexual as well here. It just doesn't matter to me. And dear: ALL girls' school. X_x Catholic as well. I live in Germany. Hit me up if you want to talk in German.
I'll just talk more here soon if I have more time, but: You are not alone. :3
♥ Dance with Asmo ♥ (- "Obey Me!" Character masquerade challenge to myself. XD)
I'm very impressed with your willingness to be so open about who you are and what your views are. Thank you so much. I will write more a bit later. I am not awake enough at this moment.
REPLYING TO A TRIGGERING MESSAGE. Mention of: Sexuality/Gender I've just felt like reading my own biography (or almost) and I need a moment.
Will write something else shortly. How do you english anymore. Ha. [Edit] As I'm reading your text again, I feel like I've found someone sharing my view of things when it comes to gender and sexuality. I've found myself smiling here and there at a few lines as well. You're asking what are genders/how does it feels to be this and that. I cannot really explain because I share this view as well. I've never felt entitled to being what a cisgender girl should be according to society standards. I am not gentle, caring and open because I was guided to be (hell, my childhood/youth would paint something else!). I am these qualities just like I can be daring, witty, brave and everything given to a cisgender male "guided" by our society. Why is it so hard to understand that before being a gender, you're also human? Formed of cells? Very similar to your neighbour? I don't understand why there is a wall. I don't understand limits. I don't understand gendering. As for myself, while I would have prefered to be a male, I'm alright with who I am right now. Body aside, I'm proud of calling myself human without a gender. My gender is me, Felixys. The rest is purely cosmetic with little importance. What made it important is how society perceive me. It's not me they are seeing, it's my boobs, my vagina, my curves. I just wish someone would look at me for who I am because that's what I do with people. I just look at them for who they are.
Teared up a bit right there. I'm tired of this "butch" or "queer femme" catcalling slang. It's quite annoying to see how many transgender get called butch simply because they feel like being in a female body is just not doing it. I have no idea if I look butch to the outside world but all I know is that it makes me afraid to be because I'm not lesbian and someone tied this slang to them. Never intend to be either a lesbian. I don't want to be repressed to my look or my obesity either. Some days, I'm afraid of never falling in love with the right person. I define myself as demisexual because I do have past trauma and a mental illness behind my tie but a lot of people are repulsed by obese body. I would date a chubby/obese person. Not because I'm one but because I don't care. Whatever gender they are or not, I would still go for it. I've been lying to myself a lot in the past few years. I always try to put up a strong front by saying "I'm okay alone and friendless, all is good". I still suffer from it. I do. I always come accross as "rough" and surely too masculine to be with people. To them, I have too much of an opinion and a big mouth. Which probably makes things difficult in my everyday life. I usually dress "sporty" with jeans and graphic tees. I'm not one to wear dresses, heels or "feminine" things. It's just not flattering for me nor my body. As of today, I don't if it's because I'm nonbinary or because I'm obese. I don't really know yet.
I don't know where I'm going about all of this but I just can relate a lot to what you're written. Alas, I cannot explain genders/nor gender roles unless you want a carbon copy of what I've learned from school. Thank you for sharing with us.
Mentions: Gender confusion, body issues, terrible family
Thank you for sharing what's going on in your mind. Letting everything all out might help in giving you some clarity.
I was also a tomboy growing up. I never liked things that were seen as very masculine (like cars) or very feminine (like Barbies). I got along better with boys, but I tried to fit in with girls who liked playing with dolls and whatever else society considers girly. It didn't work out, and because I was told so many times to be girly by the parents and relatives, I thought I was not worth anything. I wasn't able to do things like fishing, because father had the attitude of "you're a girl and girls don't fish".
Yay for not having any more periods! I have an IUD, but I still get symptoms and occasional flow. I don't understand how anyone can be okay with having periods. Also, the idea of a baby growing inside me freaks me out so much.
I never understood why your biological sex dictated your interests and personality. Now I know it's garbage and something the media tries so hard to enforce. I always viewed people as individuals and not as male or female. I'm pan, and I'm wondering if that mindset is part of why I'm pan.
Feeling like you're always faking your outer appearance isn't good. I wonder if you could do little things that would help you feel more like yourself? What kind of look would make you feel like you?
I'm still pretty new to identifying as nonbinary (which is extremely liberating to know I don't have to choose between male and female), so I'm still learning a lot of things. ^^
OK, well I think I will post, even though it's scary.
I don't know HOW to hide my post, I have looked for the post (which I read when I joined) that explains how to do it, and I cannot find it. One of the reasons I haven't posted much is the fear of breaking a rule, so if my post is supposed to be hidden, then I request that the mod edit this, thanks.
Another reason I fear posting is due to my age, but I'm going to reveal it. It seems to me that people also majorly stereotype others based on age (older people are quite marginalized in many respects) so I want to say that I am NOT anyone's idea of a grandma (sitting around knitting, baking and gardening) and I don't even HAVE any children or grands, so that's that.
OK, so I was born in 1955. I am 62. I grew up with a LOT of gender stereotyping. I never liked it. I remember when I was first developing. Before that I was running around the neighborhood without a shirt on (all the kids were, but mostly the boys) and when I had to cover up I think a little part of me died. I don't think I was a tomboy. I was neutral, even then. I liked dresses, and dolls and I liked to play in the sandbox with my brothers cars. I liked to build things and play in the woods, and catch tadpoles and also make doll dishes out of mud (by the creek). So, I did it all. But the cars and building toys (lincoln logs, legos, tinkertoys) were not MY toys. I have 2 brothers. I was given dolls. I liked them, too. I am VERY glad those other toys were available, though. I think I DID prefer the building toys, not sure.
I like to read, I love science, and architecture. I would probably have become an architect if I had not been seriously ill in 8th grade. I missed 2 months of school and it REALLY threw me off my rhythm in life.
I've been in relationships with men and women. I agree that who we want to be with sexually has nothing to DO with gender, but they were tied together in years past, and that's sometimes hard to forget. I don't like labels, but I have said I am bisexual, just to clarify that I'm not hetero. I have NEVER identified with most women. I don't identify with most men, either. There is a very small "band" of human beings who seem to fall into a spectrum of "people I like and can relate to." I was in a relationship with one of those humans, a man, and he died unexpectedly, 5 yrs ago. I've been quite alone since. I'm pretty lost in terms of finding gender neutral people. I have physical and emotional challenges that make it difficult for me to get out and be a part of life. I know that having difficulty participating in life is NOT only because I'm older. I have always had that difficulty, and I want to emphasize that because I do NOT think that my challenges eclipse anyone elses, who might be a lot younger. I only mention it because aging has made a difference in my life, it's harder than ever to be IN it.
There is nothing that I'm saying here that I think has to do with my age, I only mentioned it to emphasize how MUCH I understand (and abhor) all the stupid gender stereotyping that human beings are subjected to. I really have never enjoyed being treated a certain way just because I appear female--and also have had my share of being cat-called due to my curvy figure--which first happened in the 70's when I was 20 and I felt terribly violated, exposed, scared.
OK well ugh. I hope I've not offended anyone. I am just me, trying to find a place in life where I can BE myself and not have others expect me to BE something based on my gender, or my age, or anything else that is only visual, but doesn't really say WHO I am.
I am also dealing with issues of weight and a lot of physical discomfort that is partly the weight and (possibly) partly other stuff. I guess it's called sensory issues. The good news is that I lost almost 50 pounds in the last 2 yrs. It took a long time because there were times when I gained and gave up for a few months. I still need to lose another 50 pounds, just for me, to feel more comfortable in my body. It's VERY uncomfortable. I've noticed quite a few here who have mentioned their issues with weight and I wanted to be very open and say that I understand it. I've dealt with my weight and body image problems since I was 13, so for nearly 50 yrs. I am available to anyone who needs to talk about it (or anything) though I am slow to get back to people, due to chronic pain/fatigue.
I have a connective tissue disorder (ED-S) and I know I'm not the only one here with THAT issue (fibromyalgia and other stuff having to do with pain and fatigue) so I'm really glad I found this group because it seems we are all pretty supportive of each other and that's essential. In my life I am almost completely alone and I have felt pretty depressed lately. I've been isolating too much and I know that some of you do that too. Let's remember we have each other, because I have often felt that I'm going insane from not having anyone to talk to.
Oh, and one last thought: I never think of myself as the age that I am. For many many yrs I have been stuck in my mind at being between 28 and 35-ish.I heard this in a show I was watching yesterday: "No matter how old we are, we are all just running around on the playground trying to fit it." I think that's pretty true. So, I'm very glad that in enby we have our own playground where we can be ourselves and not be marginalized . . . and we can question who we are in a place where others are questioning, and hopefully get a sense of belonging that's hard to find in most areas of life!
My post was too long and I had to edit it, so now I can only hope it still makes sense!
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Apology / Thank you / reason for creating the topic:
I am incredibly sorry, that it took me over a week to reply. But to say the least the past week has been a big mindfuck for me. And yes, that is due to this topic.
First of all thank you all so much for your long and personal and deep replies. I never expected anybody to read through the wall of text of messed up thought and you all really touched me with your replies. Thank you!
I was a mess when I wrote the topic and even more so when I reread and reread what I wrote and started to realize at some points that the "gender-thing" is a big issue for me, bigger than I estimated.
There were two encounters at the weekend before that started the train of thought again, not that this was the first time, gender was always a topic for me ever since I was able to think. Even before I knew what gender was and what impact it has on ones life.
I was at a gothic festival that weekend, which always attracts the most diverse people. What I always loved about the gothic scene was that gender and sexuality don't matter for the most part. It's always like a big flower bouquet of the most diverse colours of black. I saw a lot of people being comfortable wearing things no matter how they are gendered in the public eye. Make-up, hair and clothes are all for everyone in the gothic community. But I am going off on a tangent here.
The first encounter that weekend that made me question, was one I found myself into quite a lot of times in the past. I was standing in front of the stage, watching my favourite bands perform, when I found myself staring at the male singers. Not in a way, that most females I know would do, I don't want to be with them. I want to BE them. Just like them. I admired their male bodies, voices and general appearance in quite a jealous way.
The other situation that weekend that confused me was my encounter with a girl. I met her and her best friend at the festival and we just got talking and ended up spending nearly the whole time together. Well, one of the girls was extremely flirty with me, even though she was heterosexual (at least that's what she and her bestie told me when the talk came to sexuality for some reason). She leaned against me several times and even touched my boobs (which I ignored, I am still confused as why she did it) and told me if she ever had something with a girl it would be somebody like me. I don't even know where all this talk came from, since I for sure didn't start to talk about sexuality and stuff. We are still in contact, but I don't know what to think of it.
What I went through after posting this topic and what results from it:
How I said I was going through a major mindfuck this past week. After creating this topic I reread my post. And reread it. And reread it. In combination with some of your comments I realized, that I did contradict myself at some points. That part of me is lying to myself. Myself and others.
One of the obvious "wuha, I am in denial, aren't I?"- passages are those:
Yeah... So much for believing in / following my own advice. So okay, for somebody who doesn't give a rat's ass about other people's opinions on a lot of things (tattoos, piercings, hair colours, weird clothes, behaving "inappropriate", having an opinion and addressing it verbally, sexuality, being fat, hobbies, ...), I do feel that I care a little much about the "appearing the appropriate gender". Maybe because I want people not to notice that I might be "off" in that response? Because I don't want to be hurt? Because I think it is such a big issue for me, that I can get easily hurt with it. All the other stuff I really can't get hurt, since I am so sure in myself about those parts of me.
The other parts of my post I feel like I am lying to myself and others is the part of not feeling gender. I don't know. Maybe it is not that I don't know what gender itself feels like. I may just not knowing what it feels to be female.
Yeah, and me addressing/recognizing the latter inconsistency is what caused hell to break loose inside of my emotional thought carousel for the past week... I mean... It is not the first time in my life that I considered the possibility (certainty) of not matching my biologically sex.... but you know... it always seemed easier to avoid those thoughts.... But now I can't seem to unsee things again.
I outed my problem to three people, an online friend, my asexual ex and my mum. So far they seem all supportive. I will go and start seeing a support group end of this week, since I think it is important for me now to talk to people who are in a similar situation than me or who have already been through this.
I won't out myself the the world until I am 100% sure on how I will act upon my newly won awareness. At least it is good to know the issue in order to decide how to address it. So yeah, that's me.
I am also debating a new hair cut.
Aww, thank you so much, it seems like we have so much in common and hearing somebody else went through what I have been through is helping so much in making myself feel more comfortable in myself. Did you hate your all girls school as much as me? I had a lot of shit going on in my life in the past, but that school was just the worst to me. Most people who know what else happened to me can't understand that xD Would you mind me sending you a buddy request? I am always open to mails and comments, I am just sometimes soooo slow to respond. Doesn't mean I don't care, I will reply at some point ;) Just living a stressful life and like to take the time to respond properly.
Thank you so much for your comment and your reply here! Thank you so much for opening up and sharing your story with me as well! I know it takes a lot of guts to be so open about a topic that is still so taboo in society and is often confronted with wo much hate and disrespect and uneducation. It deeply touched me to hear your story! First of all: Age doesn't matter! It shouldn't and particularly on the internet it doesn't. That's what I loved so much about experiencing the first internet generation: When it was all about thoughts, views and personality. Age, race, sex, income, looks, status, ... - it all didn't matter, it was just about exchange and learning and talking and about being human. I still hate that economy discovered the internet and with ads and social media it is all down to the "looks" again. RIP my little safe harbour of mind exchange. At least there is Subeta :D
My mum just turned 62 and she doesn't act like this. She is still a sports trainer, very active and far from a knitting grandma. We even have some friends her age in common that we'll go on a little holiday with in December, age shouldn't ever be a thing. It doesn't matter to me if somebody is 20, 40, 60 or 80, if we are on the same wavelength and have things in common it's great! And on the opposite there are a lot of people in my generation I don't get along with. While sure, the experience we collect throughout our years on earth and the circumstances we grew up in to be the people who we are today formed us, but there is always that part of personality no outside influence can touch. We all have our own mind, let's use it ;)
I mean it must have been hard to feel nb when there was a time of people not even accepting anything non-conform to all the stereotypes. I know times were a lot harder than I can imagine and I am really happy that times seem to change in our favour slowly. Nowadays kids know what trans means and there is even the possibility of blocking puberty or transitioning before being an adult. So it is really awesome for you to be able to openly speak about your experience when you grew up with a much bigger stigma than people of younger generations.
I am really sorry to hear about your loss. That must have been really traumatizing. I can't really relate, but I lost my dad about 7 years ago and that was a big thing for me, like I still miss him. Can't imagine loosing one's significant other after spending a long time together. I am really sorry. It must be hard to let somebody else into your life when it is always a comparison to the relationship you once had.
For the weight thing... I personally have been skinny until puberty. A part of me thinks that me being obese might have to do with the depression I went through at that time of my life and my change of my body in general. And while I would love to loose weight to be healthy I am actually a bit scared to do so. To look more female-female? Like I would hate to look like a model and to be seen as "an object". Like being fat kind of helps not to be seen as meat. And I hate to feel like people just seeing me as meat. So I wonder if that might have a little impact on my built.
Please don't feel alone, even though you are going through a rough time / depression, please be assured that there are people that are just like you, that understand you and we are here for you! Please try to find stuff that makes your life enjoyable, because it is to short to waste on thinking to much and isolating. There are endless opportunities and you have the freedom to choose how you will live! That's at least what I will try to do. Live more actively again. Live to the fullest. Or how one of my favourite bands would say in an inappropriate way: "Love the best - fuck the rest!".
And I also don't feel like 31. More like 23. :D
Feel free to contact me anytime via sMail or any other way, I really like to communicate and listen to other people going through similar situations. Just as a warning I am slow in replying. I always have been no matter how often I tried to be more reliable in that response. And you are right, I am middle European time zone, but luckily that doesn't matter with the forums or sMail :D
Oh wow, I really didn't mean to trigger you in any way. I am myself still so baffled that there are people out there relating to what I have been through and feeling and thinking in similar ways!
And so true, most and foremost we are human beings! All of us! No matter what! All our biology is not so different from each other. Why should it matter what gender or sex one is? What race, what age, what nationality, what built? That's not what makes us human and it doesn't make us the person we are, our personality. I hate that society is so quick to judge on looks. Also please try not to care about the people who don't want to look behind your appearance. True friends don't care if you turned up with a fake moustache, a turban, cowboy boots and an Octoberfest-dress, they take you for the person you are, not more and not less.
How I explained to above, I am even thinking if my gender identity plays its part in me being obese. It started while puberty, my worst time of body dysmorphia when I started to develop female attributes and didn't feel like fitting in and went through a major depression. I would like to get thinner for health reasons and I am working on a plan to reduce my weight (long story), but I am also scared to be even more objectified as a female when look more... how women are "supposed to look"?
Thank you as well to read through my wall of text and replied so openly! I feel like I can also relate to a lot of what you wrote and experienced.
Thank you for listening. And yeah, I think I go a little bit more clarity than I was prepared for when I started to write xD
I didn't like cars or barbies neither, I always loved playing with my balls though. Oh gosh, that sounds so wrong, but I mean I had this big box of all kind of balls, from little bouncy balls over medium balls and basket-balls to (for me as a kid) gigantic balls I could sit on. I loved to study the way they rolled and bounced and flew and in general I was a ball kid XD
My parents luckily didn't press or force me into a gender as a kid. No pink or blue, it was just about what I wanted. Toys and hobby-wise.
What kind of look would make me feel me? That is probably the question I found the hardest to answer to myself. My dream body would be male. Deep voice, flat chest, male jawline. Thinner. Not skinny, but not fat anymore. I'd like to have some muscles. Dreadlocks with an undercut. More tattoos. I always dreamed about having tattoos on my torso. Just not a female torso. The singers I mentioned above that made me really jealous of their appearance are called Andy LaPlegua (Combichrist), Chris Harms (Lord of the Lost) and Thomas Rainer (Nachtmahr). If I could have any of those bodies through pressing a button I would press it so hard. That's idolizing though. I wouldn't need to look just like that. Just similar in my own way ;)
I am actually debating changing my hair at some point. I am also trying to loose weight. We'll see where my journey will take me. I'll keep you guys/gals/nb-pals informed! :D
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Sorry to ping again, but I am pretty uncertain if any of you received my previous pings. I am so nervous about going to a support group tonight (for the first time).
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- Ahhh, I'm so sorry. I was fighting a cold for a few days and got overwhelmed with pings. T^T
I collected marbles because of how pretty they were. Balls were fun to bounce around, so I had a few of those. Never got one of those gigantic balls though.
I think you should do little things to make yourself feel more like the real you. Even if you can't do hormone treatment, you can still work towards a goal. Like, losing weight and building some muscle at the same time. (The muscle building can help combat the model look). I also say change your hair!
(I hope I'm not too late for this...) That's awesome that you're going to a support group! I hope it goes well. Keep me updated, and since I'm not loopy, I'll be faster to reply! :)
Update:
So I went to a support group on Friday and let me tell you, I was shit-scared. I was so nervous that I walked up and down the street where the meeting was located for about half an hour considering if to go in or not. I did go in in the end and I don't regret it.
It turned out to be less a support group and more a meeting where everybody could talk about anything. But it was really interesting seeing and talking to so many other guys at different stages of their transition and exchanging information and stories. I feel like I am definitely at the beginning of a long journey. And I am still unsure where the journey will lead me in the long run.
I will try this week to make an appointment with a therapist, since it is the only way in my country to get anything medically or paperwork-wise trans-related done in my country. And I think it wouldn't hurt to see one. I know that the wait-times are horrific and I might need to wait 6 month or something ridiculous like that for an appointment, but I know I am worth the wait. I am worth going through all the necessary steps in order to come closer to my goal of finally being me.
I also thought a lot about names... and how much I hate my birth name (no, Neila ain't my proper birth name, it's a nickname). And I thought about which male names might suit me. At the moment I feel like I could be a Ben. What do you guys think?
I do visit a gym regularly now. So I hope that will help in the long run. I also made comparison HAs...
This is the closest HA I can create to what I do look right now:
Private Outfit
And this is the closest HA to the body I would love to call mine:
Private Outfit
Minus the hair colour, but I couldn't bother to fuck around with that right now. So yes, I do have a goal. And I think it is not as impossible as I thought. It will take time. And money. And patience. And I might be 40 when I will finally reach it. But it's there and I know it's there. Babysteps.
Also ever since I am more honest to myself I am a lot happier already. I laughed so much the past few days. Maybe more than the whole past year. And my libido is finally back. I thought I had lost that for good. xD
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- It sounds like the group session was amazing! And yes, you're worth the time and effort.
The comparison HAs are a good idea. I can understand better what you want to go for, and it can serve as a reminder for yourself as well.
For names, I would suggest trying out Ben with people that you know will be fully supportive of your transition. If you feel like Ben doesn't suit you later, try another name. It might take a few names before you find one that's perfect for you. (It took me a few names and a few years before I got to Skylar.)
Yay for being much happier! :D
I'm sorry I haven't taken the time to answer. I've just been feeling unwell recently and I felt like answering would be dry and boring.
I've been reading back and forth and I feel like your insecurities and concerns are also what I've been feeling. I just don't what I am and what I want to be. I never feel comfortable and I never feel happy with the way and am and look. Therefore, how can I decide if I want to be a female or a male? Neither seems like the only option because I wouldn't feel comfortable being any of these for now. I don't even feel like being female is what I want. But what do I know, really? I mean, I've never been female or attempted to be unless I refer to my youth (before 10). I just feel like being agender is what makes me happier in the long run. Shedding weight is difficult, especially with a disease or a certain backstory. Is losing weight the sole solution? Will it bring happiness? We just don't know.
I'll support you. Seriously I will and I want to. I also really love Ben! It reminds me of spiderman and that's just me geeking out. As Sky said, try it out and see how it goes.
As these are replies, the TW content mirrors that of the original post.
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Howdy! Apologies for this late reply; I’ve been rather busy, and it took a bit of time to read over this thread thoroughly. I think it’s wonderful to hear you’re taking the time to address your thoughts and feelings, especially if this is your first time doing so publicly, and that you’re willing to learn. It speaks volumes of who you are - not to mention the fact you’ve taken the time to try and educate yourself, even without having experience of speaking with many non-cis individuals.
I agree about gender and sex being two different things. As far as I can tell, there actually seems to be more factors at play than just those two terms, and I even broke it down into a chart for myself back when I was trying to learn about these topics.
There seems to be five realms to this topic (if there are more, I’m also open to learning about it) - gender identity, sexual orientation, romantical orientation, biological sex, and gender presentation. The first three fall moreso under the realm of Psychology, the other two are more of a Morphology-related subject, and this is kind of how I personally group them to make sense to me (and maybe this will help you to some extent as well, given that you stated possessing a scientific mindset) -
PSYCHOLOGY Gender Identity (Mental) - What you associate, view, or interpret yourself as. Sexual/Romantical Orientation (Emotional) - What kinds of people you are emotionally attracted to. * NOTE: Sexual and romantic attraction are two different things; i.e., someone can be asexual - thus, not experience any sexual attractions - but lean romantically towards a certain type of person. I.e., perhaps they are asexual but panromantic - attracted to all genders.
MORPHOLOGY Biological Sex (Anatomy) - What you are physically assigned at birth. (IE. terms like DFAB) Gender Presentation (Eidonomy) - How you appear, express, or present yourself to others.
You mentioned you were “female in sex and appearance but not in gender in mind,” and that goes back to the whole “female in biological sex and gender presentation” aspect, but your gender identity (and therefore mental opinion on the matter) differs, which leads me to my next point -
So when it comes down to it, gender very much is a social construct. But like you said - what the definition of gender is can be incredibly - incredibly - vast, and full of variety, and is an entire spectrum in and of itself. I can see why it confuses you; it’s certainly a topic that requires a lot more in depth thinking, when it lays our barest, core feelings out into the open. It comes down to what words - and the ideas that are encompassed behind them, or the connotations and denotations thereof - you feel best describes your own feelings on the matter. I very much concur with your notion of equality, for the record, and fervently wish for a world in which everyone can be comfortable with who they are, and be able to show that in whatever way they so desire, with no repercussions.
(This is slightly off-topic, but high five for soccer! I love soccer - it’s legitimately the only sport I have an interest in. What position did you play? I was on defense, personally, and had a position as one of the starters for my team - and goodness, I loved it. Soccer is absolutely fun as all heck; I wish I had opportunities to continue playing it now, but alas.)
To be honest, I find the sharing of your history rather fascinating, especially since a lot of it clicks with me. There’s a lot of societal norms I just flat out didn’t understand when I was growing up (and some of them I still don’t to be perfectly honest), and I was always that “weird” kid - the one no-one else seemed to understand. I, too, was very much alienated from my peers, and didn’t understand their interests. There’s even a few things you mentioned in particular that I empathize with quite directly, too.
It makes sense why you’re female presenting, for the record, especially in relations to not being able to have your dream body, and to make it easier to relate and fit in with others. Or even not wanting to be hurt or singled out - that is very understandable, since it’s such a personal, and potentially sensitive, topic, that it would be easy for another to attack and wound. If you have to “female present” even if you don’t want to for your own safety - that is not a bad thing. Your safety and your wellbeing comes first, even if it is emotional/mental/psychological safety, you know?
I would disagree with you, however, about pansexuality and bisexuality being the same - the latter of which means there are two genders you are attracted to, whatever that might be (it doesn’t have to be female-presenting and male-presenting, either - it can be things like female-presenting and neutrois). Pansexuality probably fits better for what you’re describing; that the gender or presentation thereof doesn’t matter as much. But bisexuality and pansexuality are not the same thing.
But again; it’s up to you to define how you feel. I’m only offering advice / what I think might be more apt on the matter - please don’t feel as though my word is in any way absolute, because it’s not. Feelings are a tricky subject, and in the end only you can really say how you feel.
Concerning your additional post/reply, perhaps that girl that was “heterosexual” is still questioning her feelings. Sometimes feelings change over time, too - so a “label” that once applied might not any longer. If I were you, I’d give it time, and see how things play out. Assess your feelings. Make sure you’re not unhappy/uncomfortable being her friend - or more.
(You know, I wonder if explaining my own thoughts and feelings on being enby/non-binary would help at all in your confusion? But then again they’re also very personal to me, and less an aspect of your own feelings, so I’m not sure how much it would help, so i wanted to ask if you think it would. I offer it mostly because of the fact you said you haven’t spoken with as many non-cis individuals about gender-related topics, and thought perhaps it would provide some insight if you gathered data from others who have given thought to their own feelings.)
But that’s up to you. It’s odd and not many people probably relate to it - probably not even other non-binary folk - and I won’t talk of it unless you want to know as I don’t want to launch into a lengthy explanation uninvited; I feel that would be rude of me, aha. But I thank you for sharing your thoughts; I always find it fascinating to learn how other people feel, because there is so much to be gained by listening to what others have to say. It was very long and thorough and well-thought-out, and I salute you for being brave enough to be open about your feelings.
I’m glad you have three supportive people for the record, in which to be honest. ❤️❤️ I agree though - don’t out yourself to the world until YOU feel as though you are ready and prepared. Take all the time you need in figuring out your feelings, and only share / open up as much as you feel comfortable. Rushing helps nothing. Be kind to yourself; don’t beat yourself up. And if you need it, we’re here, of course. ❤️❤️ I’m glad to see you had a good experience with your support group, and that you’re starting with a therapist too, though, for the record. That’s wonderful news, and warms my heart to hear. I hope they both help you sort out all of your feelings!
Having a goal is wonderful, by the way - and it makes me happy to hear you know of pacing and patience. Even if it takes a lifetime, being true to yourself is absolutely worth it, as you’ve said. It’s good to be honest with yourself, and let your true personality shine. ❤️❤️ Ben is a great name for the record! I wholeheartedly support it. C:
…….Also I just want to say, your continued reiterations of your slow replies remind me of myself. I’m hilariously slow as well. We can be slow together. B’) The world is way too fast, aha.
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I really agree with what you said about being yourself. When it comes down to it - you are Felixys - and that should be what’s most important to others, not the anatomy that comes with your being. Our bodies are more of a mortal vessel for our souls - and our souls is really who we truly are, you know? The core of your being - the personality - the experiences - the choices - everything that makes you Felixys and not someone else. I wish more emphasis would be put on this in society, than what is exterior. Exteriors aren’t as important as what’s truly inside of an individual.
For the record, it makes me sad you’ve had such trauma/bad experiences because of others being so unkind - and for such petty reasons, too. Again, this world is too focused on surface levels - of superficiality, and shallowness, than what really, truly matters, and the depth and meaning behind appearances.
I think it’s only natural to feel this way after you’ve been taken advantage of. It’s easier to close up and withdraw, and want to be strong on your own two feet / not rely on others, because once you’ve been deeply hurt by another, you realize… people are not so trustworthy after all. But there’s always a part of us, however much we might try to deny it, that needs companionship of other people. I just want you to know, you’re not alone. I very much consider you a friend; I don’t know if you feel the same way, but I know what it’s like to have someone else use you for their own gain. This is a bit off-topic, but I did want to say I relate to this, and care, and I’m sorry others have treated you so unkindly. You deserve better than their hurt.
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I’m really sorry to hear your father didn’t allow you to finish just because it wasn’t considered a “feminine” activity, and that you were pressed into fitting such a role to the point it made you feel incapable of filling said role. People shouldn’t be so caught up in fitting a mold - but rather, allowing others to be themselves. I think parents especially can forget that their kids are going to have their own personalities and interests and wants, and even opinions/viewpoints that drastically differ from their own, and that maybe their child is going to take a different path in life than they expected. And that’s okay - everyone is a unique individual. Trying to force someone to be who they are not is only a lie, and they can never truly be happy living that lie.
I, too, viewed people as people rather than genders when I was growing up. What I cared more about was whether or not they were kind and compassionate towards others, or if they were cruel and uncaring. Society tries to fit everything down into little gendered boxes, right down to labeling colors and products and everything in between, and it’s sad. Just let people be who they are - and their true colors will show. I’m glad you feel liberated identifying as non-binary; it helps us break free from these pressures that society puts upon us, and to know you aren’t alone in feeling this way, mm?
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For the record, if you need the reference for sCode (Subeta Code - it’s actually BBC but Subeta is trying to use easier-to-understand terminology I think), it can be found here. For future reference, if you need to find this page again, hover over Interact at the top of the page’s navigation for Subeta in general, then hover over Forums, then click on sCode Reference to get back to that page.
Ah, so in relation to your post - I did know about your age already, since you mentioned it in your sMail (and don’t think I’ve forgotten about that - I very much intend to reply extensively to you, but give me some time, I’m still trying to catch up on repercussions of my extended social hiatus), and I can personally say your age doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I’ve had friends who were just as old - sometimes older - than you. Good friends. And when it comes down to it, age doesn’t matter as much as maturity and compassion in my opinion, so it saddens me that you’ve dealt with people feeling stereotypical towards you.
I’m sorry to hear being ill threw you off the path of being an architect, for the record. My uncle is actually an architect, and while I don’t know an awful lot about the particulars of the subject, I do find designing fascinating, and in the realm of creative outlets. (I design things myself, though, being a graphic artist and also an artist in general, so I can relate, just not in the sense of buildings specifically.) I can see why you had an interest in being an architect, given that it combines creativity with the science you mentioned - being able to make something aesthetically pleasing while also physically plausible is a wonderful combination.
Good job on losing 50 pounds for the record! Sometimes it’s easy to get discouraged when you feel like you’re not progressing - but the fact that you’re trying - and doing well - is good in and of itself, you know? Don’t give up. It’s like that quote I love so very much “It doesn’t matter how slowly you go, so long as you do not stop.” Sometimes the journey to improving yourself can be a hard one, but that’s what makes it worth it in the end, hmm? I wish you all the luck with losing those other 50 pounds you mentioned - so that you can be happier and more comfortable. ❤️❤️
I’m so sorry to hear one of the few people you relate to passed away, and that you’re having difficulties in participating in life. Whether age or not - I think a lot of us - especially those of us that are enby folk - struggle a lot with these things, because of being different, and a minority, and have a harder time fitting in with others, on top of other problems that we might be facing, too. I think you’re a wonderful addition to our group, for the record - I for one am glad you’ve found a place where you can be more of yourself, and be more open to your own thoughts and feelings. It’s good to have a place to be safe, isn’t it? I think we all understand each other here, and that’s wonderful. It’s a welcome change to some other groups I’ve been in, honestly, and very refreshing.
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"Aww, thank you so much, it seems like we have so much in common and hearing somebody else went through what I have been through is helping so much in making myself feel more comfortable in myself. Did you hate your all girls school as much as me? I had a lot of shit going on in my life in the past, but that school was just the worst to me. Most people who know what else happened to me can't understand that xD Would you mind me sending you a buddy request? I am always open to mails and comments, I am just sometimes soooo slow to respond. Doesn't mean I don't care, I will reply at some point 😉 Just living a stressful life and like to take the time to respond properly."
Ohhhh YES I HATED this all girls school! I just went bc of the music stuff. I REALLy should've been at a "normal" school. :v You totally may! <3 Same here slow and unsure abt everything. lol I understand.
Oh well Tomboy and wearing skirts. No one believes you but I LOVE comfortable clothes. But still fashionable. I totally understand the Gothic section and as well the male singers. - Still don't know if I would want to totally get treatment as for medication regarding transgender. I feel female sometimes but I don'T want boobs and just... being me. No "flesh baggage". Not being reduced on tits or anything. - I love deep male voices but am a sopran. So... yeah. As well as the other thing: Binder problems. I really hope I can rech my goal of 55kg one day. But I can't fight genes. ;_; - I really get u so much. (No offendse here, I don't know u personally but it gets to me what u tell here. - U are rrly brave!)
♥ Dance with Asmo ♥ (- "Obey Me!" Character masquerade challenge to myself. XD)
- Oh gosh, I never understood the existence of gendered products. Pink pens = for women??? It's ridiculous.
I'm really happy to know that I'm not alone in being nonbinary. I always thought that I was defective for not feeling feminine and everyone would laugh at how I felt. I'm also happy to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't view people as genders.
How'S the psychiatrist thing going? - I know it can be a long tough wait. (Congrats on gym and on your courage! I couldn't go to meetings like these! wow.) There's SO much paperwork and worry, patience etc in regards to transistion as well. This is a big step and I do hope you don't have to wait too long. <3
♥ Dance with Asmo ♥ (- "Obey Me!" Character masquerade challenge to myself. XD)