There are a couple things that are extremely unbalanced when it comes to training on subeta:

1. The Training Center is the slowest way to train by far
2. BQs often allow larger pets to gain stats faster than smaller pets, where in most games, small pets would normally be able to gain stats relatively quickly as they are not as impactful

Here is the current training time table

The table was made back when it was still expensive to use boosters, and more importantly before battle quests.

At any level battle quests can earn you about 10-20 stats per day, so once you are down to only 1-2 training sessions per day, they largely become negligible.

On the low end of the spectrum, low tier battling is relatively unfun. You have extremely restricted access to weapons, opponents tend to go from impossible to extremely easy with the changing of tiers, and it takes weeks to get to a point when some of the more challenging opponents that are incrementally more difficult.

If you are just getting into subeta/battling your first experience with the system is to wait 1 hour for a relatively weak stat point considering battling starts to get more interesting around tier 5 at 1800 total stats. If stats only took 1 hour to train from a new pet to tier 5, it would take about 2.5 months of constant training as a preamble to get into battling in any meaningful way, which is longer than most people play most other games. If I were someone looking from the outside at subetas battling system, I would never want to invest 2.5+ months before getting to the more interesting content. I would just go play a different game.

I would propose the following new training time table:

Tier 1 (lv 0-30) 10 seconds Tier 2 (lv 31-60) 30 seconds Tier 3 (lv 61-120) 1 Minutes Tier 4 (lv 121-220) 5 minutes Tier 5 (lv 221-260) 10 minutes Tier 6 (lv 261-340) 30 minutes Tier 7 (lv 341-440) 1 hour Tier 8 (lv 441-540) 4 Hours Tier 9 (lv 541-640) 6 Hours Tier 10 (lv 641-800) 8 Hours Tier 11 (lv 801-1200) 12 Hours Tier 12 (lv 1201-2200) 16 Hours Tier 13 (lv 2201-3500) 1 day

(side note - how on earth did they pick the numbers for the tier system lol)

That proposed table is maybe a bit too aggressive for tiers 7 and 8, but I would argue that getting pets to tier 5 offers almost no financial benefit, and should be a relatively quick process even if it does come at a cost of sP.

Even if my numbers are too aggressive overall, I think the principle that they should be lowered is still sound.

Another argument I anticipate people bringing up is that this would cause stat inflation. While it would increase the overall number of stats on pets, it wouldn't really change as much at the top, which is much more important that the pets at the bottom.

Whether or not you leave autotrain the way it is is probably controversial. It is currently a relatively useless (even though I have seen people still using it) feature considering it is more sP efficient to use tomes past lv 50 than it is to autotrain (ie you can auto train efficiently for maybe 1-2 weeks before it is worthless, and you get a tier 3-4 out of it). Also getting to tier 5 super fast is not in any way profitable, only a convenience. I would say even though you would gain hundreds of stats per day, its probably still not a problem considering it wouldn't really be economical.

As a lackadaisical battler, I would support this. I think more people would be willing to try/train with gains like that. I have a T7, two T6, T5 and four T4's so it would definitely help me feel more accomplished when I do manage to squeak in some time on here and shove them in training. Right now I'm usually on my phone, so they're lucky of they get squashed in once a day and you can forget about bqs. But when I have time and I'm on my laptop, they barely get a session or two in before I have to split.

What? No. 10 second and 30 second training times? Autotraining would be absolutely crazy? This is way too extreme.

I have one T12 pet and one T5 pet. Sure, I'd like all 18 of my pets to be high tiers to make profits off of challengers, but if that happens it should be something I earn by going through the same training process everyone else has.

Getting more stats from battle quests that you do actual battling in than from the training center where there is nothing going on actually makes a lot of sense.

These times are too extreme. People put a lot of time in training pets, a change like this would really undermine the pride achieved from training a strong pet.

[edit] Plus if you autotrained with 10 second training sessions for 24 hours, you'd gain at least 8640 stats, and since autotraining has a higher chance of 2/3 stat sessions, it'd probably be closer to 16000 in a single stat. Autotraining would be flat out broken

The system is designed (or simply inspired by other sources) that way in the beginning, and isn't really always great.

So far, I do agree that it takes quite a lot of time for a typical battler to train up. I can certainly do lots of other stuff in 2.5 months.

Having training times 5 minutes or less requires quite of lot of constant attention. I would hardly call that entertaining. In that case I wonder, why don't pets start with 100 stat of everything for example?

In my opinion, the lower tier challengers should drop more stat eggs. It's a good incentive to start battling and raise stats of small pets quicker. Aside from the non-CS challengers adjusted to drop them long ago, I've yet to see any other challenger drop them.

Also maybe the eggs can give stats beyond tier 3? For example, for tier 4-5 just one constant stat point instead of 1-3.

(Drifting off topic, but just wanted to mention about current things) For low tier pets, besides the limited low tier weapons, defense seems to be handicapped by the tiny amount of icons the weapons block (given that you actually defend the correct type thrown at you), and speed totally useless if the opponent is faster than you, even just by 50 speed stats.

What I found is that it's easier to beat opponents by just training hp and strength, and use exp to buy levels. BQs actually give plenty of exp for levels, which is the cheapest stat. Of course, the downside is a really skewed build. But it could be fixed later with boosters.

Disagree, honestly training isn't that difficult to begin with compared to most sites that have battling. I've found that the best way to optimize your training time is by spending EXP on levels and using the training times on other stats. Add to the fact that you can get boosters from questers such as Shinwa and Quentin and the beginner BD opponents drop boosters, there are multiple ways to level up your pets' stats.

I currently have 5 pets that I've been training at almost the same time (t10, t5, and 3 t2 below), but I know some people that spend time training several pets simultaneously.

Also, what Kbbob says. Since it's very easy to gain 2 or 3 points per session, the shorter training times can seriously break the battling scene.

Having a tier 5 pet is worthless, it wouldn't break anything if every new pet started as a tier 5 without any training at all. (Even getting a tier 6-7 is economically pretty pointless) Making it very easy to get a tier 5 would not hurt the BC, but if the beginning of the game were more active, you would potentially draw in a lot more battlers.

At least when battling with tier 5 pets there starts to be more strategy to battles.

A lot of you are speaking from the experience of training up 2nd-25th battle pets, where you aren't waiting for content to become available to you.

From a new player standpoint, noone would ever look at subetas BC as a viable game at this point with 2.5 months minimum of uninteresting gameplay before it starts to get a little interesting. It has been broken over time by run away stat inflation from BQs, with no catch up mechanisms aside from spending billions on stat boosters.

I haven't autotrained in years, if it always uses your starting time, obviously it would need to be disabled for tiers 1-3 or fixed to use the proper times for each level. Or even just disabled since it starting at level 50 it start to be about as efficient as tomes anyways. Thats a problem with the current infrastructure more than the idea as a whole though.

Training times less than 5 minutes would be very short for a relatively short period of time, just for newer players to draw them in.

The other thing that could be done would be to dramatically drop the EXP cost of tiers 1-3 so that each win is approximately 1 stat so that a newer player could constantly progress.

The point of this suggestion isn't so that people can train 30 battle pets, the point is to get new players into the more interesting parts of battling and to retain players on the site. The way it is currently set up, the new player experience is pretty abysmal.

Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation.

I thought some more starting stats will make new pets look more capable of surviving at least a few battles. (Even Pokemon starters are level 5 and have more than 10hp)

However, the bigger challenge is actually getting people involved in battling. I sometimes see people with decently trained pets, even hundreds of stats, sometimes even autotrained... but with a very sparse statistics page. Some wins were from easy challengers they beat with nearly no effort. Many of the player don't fully know how to battle, and those who do don't really know which weapons to use.

Yeah, the new player experience is pretty abysmal.

Reducing training times certainly isn't a panacea to the new player experience, but right now I think it is a very hard barrier to it.

The only way I can think of to fix it without training times, would be to rebalance and add several low level challengers to create more of a progression ladder than what is currently available. But that is a very resource intensive way to do things

Why don't we just have the first five tiers be "press this button, wait for X time, pay Y sP, and automatically reach the next tier" The lower tiers do have challengers, and this suggestion makes them pretty useless for everyone if training becomes too quick and too simple. The lower tiers now serve as an introduction to battling. I doubt anyone has joined subeta just for battling, but it's something people work on because of plots even if it doesn't interest them much. For the other people who actually do enjoy it, I think it can be a rewarding process to put in that much time to build up new pets from scratch instead of reaching a mid-tier pet in a matter of weeks.

Sure, it can be tough to be a new player, but that doesn't mean we need to make things too easy for new players. There's a lot of conveniences they have now that I didn't have when I started training - alerts in the TC, booster eggs, autotraining. The problem is that battling just doesn't appeal to a majority of users. TBT was a really good move to bring in interest to battling though. Free challengers on a regular schedule with usually sought after loot. I'd prefer if the loot were achievement based to prevent too much devaluation to encourage battling more, but I'm still really happy with that decision.

As someone with a t13 pet, the most fun part of battling is getting stronger to fight challengers you previously couldn't beat - seeing the progress of daily battle quests and training sessions, and maybe the occasional booster. Once you reach t13 and that's not really anything you'll ever experience again, battling loses the thing that kept you going while building up your pet. I think speeding up the process wouldn't be a good idea.

I did say that all pets could probably start at tier 5 consequence free. Reducing training times was the middle ground from that suggestion.

As to low level challengers:

1. They would only be worthless if you auto trained, that is not what a player new to the site would be doing. A new player would likely be trying to battle them in between training sessions
2. They are not that interesting to tier 1-4 pets as they currently stand, as they generally jump from being impossible to beat to easy to beat as you transition from one tier to another tier and unlock the next
3. They can (and should) always be rebalanced to distribute them through the middle range more.

Also you can always change the numbers, it doesn't need to be 10 seconds in tier 1, it could be a bit longer, but it should not take months to reach tier 5 even with autotraining. There should be some way for a new player to put in time to get more stats quickly early.

If battling is essential here and like a standalone role playing game which is intended to take several dozen hours to complete at most, I'd say for sure it takes way too long to reach the point where things get interesting.

But from a pet raising point of view (this is a pet site after all, although I wish they do more about it), things do require patience. Unfortunately yes, sometime a ton of it. Exaggerated, they aren't trained veteran mercenaries ready to kick the bosses ass and get mythical loot. Yes, the grind can put prospective players off, because we all don't have a bunch of spare time like we used to.

Both sides have valid points. It would be nice to reach the point quickly where things start to feel worthwhile. However, part of the experience is the progression looking from the very bottom up, regardless of training or beating challengers.

Yeaaah this. Every time I get Crithbolcan as a final BQ challenger, I count how many moves it takes my pet to beat him, because the only real positive of fighting such a tedious challenger is watching it become a little easier.

I really think that being able to earn a couple hundred stats in a week or two is fast enough for new battlers. Subeta isn't a video game that you're supposed to finish up in a week; the more expensive prizes and powerful weapons that are earned in higher tier battles are meant to reward people who put a ridiculous amount of time and money to getting to that point, not everyone who sneezes on the training page. If they became that common, most of those items would cease to become significant anyway.

There are so many things on this site that are so easy to obtain, I just don't think that making a strong battle pet one of those things would benefit the battle system in the slightest. However, I did really enjoy the tiered system with the boss battles from the summer plot. It was pretty great to see to see some friends with T7 and T8 pets earn more than just consolation prizes.

subeta is THE MOST easiest site to train for battle. that said the proposed system is mega bonkers. if one requires a bit more easier training time why not make the GA times the new official training times???

I'm all for things to draw in and retain new users especially new battlers, but I don't think this is the right kind of approach to it. I don't think it would be effective and I think it would take too much out of the beginning stages of battling. There are better ways to get people who might want to battle to start battling and keep battling, such as better incentivizing battling itself, maybe giving significantly more xp beyond win 10 for wins by a pet the same tier as the challenger, things like that, not just completely trivializing the beginning stages of battling.

I object to every last assumption behind this Suggestion . It is a terrible idea, and I do not support it.

Training is not slowest. When you factor in the time necessary to earn the sP to train by booster, Jim is still faster.

It takes a lot of time and effort for stronger pets to be able to do those BQs in the first place, and their actual benefit in terms of how much damage they do/absorb is asymptotic and not linear.

Not everything about Subeta has to be instant gratification, and not everything about Subeta has to be about battling. The whole minion-combat thingy that was intended to be like the Neurogalaxy combat system is much easier and was doable within 2.5 months. If TPTB agree with all y'all in any way (and I do not claim that they do or should) then they should continue to develop that instead. Minion battling was simplistic compared to our current battle system, but it too was fun.

I have some lower than t5 pets, and I found it possible with the weaponry allowed and with the challengers that are Speed-appropriate to adjust my battle strategy accordingly without skewing my build. The EXP to be gained from all the small challengers available plus the special fifth win boosters are all very nice, IMO. Are they as big and exciting as my fifteen t12+ pets, no they aren't, But they are still fun and battling with them is fun. Just because you don't like this or have any fun doing this, doesn't mean nobody else does.

(those battlers know I am opposed to the tier system and stat caps, but since this is a losing proposition I will not repeat those here, I only mention them to point out how badly I object to this whole suggestion because it relies on them still existing, IMO)

I have some t13 pets, and some of the challengers that are speed-appropriate for them are tedious time consuming (and painful with my arthritis) to fight.

Battling is not and never was meant to be a means to make easy sP. Subeta should not support this attitude, ever. Want an easy way to make sP? Restock, do quests, play some other easier-for-you games. Don't battle, do something else.

I disagree that we should dramatically decrease training time or even change the training system at all. But, I think you make a very good point that battling when you have a pet less than tier 5 is just not fun at all.

When you create a new pet, you can't even start battling until you've trained it a lot. I recall I had to get my pet to about 30 or 40 in each stat before I could beat the easiest challenger in the regular challengers tab. That's a lot of training without getting to even battle with your pet once.

Consider a very popular game that centers on battling: Pokemon. You start with a very low level Pokemon, it doesn't know great moves, but you can battle. The battle is very simple (and boring), but you can at least battle, and for newer players that means a chance to get their feet wet right away and learn the battle mechanics.

Subeta has no such thing. I think Subeta should emulate that. Give us some battle opponents that pets can start battling with only 10-20 in each stat. These opponents shouldn't give sP or item prizes, but they should give a bit of EXP, which can be skewed so that weaker pets get more EXP so that they can get more stat boosts. Further, these opponents should be simple enough that players can use them to figure out how battling works, like what icons are, different weapon types, scrolls, etc.

That would take MUCH more work for Subeta's staff, of course, than just modifying training times or something else that's just changing some numbers. But I wanted to just put this out there anyway, cuz I think this would be the best solution if we wanted to make battling something more interesting and engaging for new battlers. Not profitable, because I think that should only be for higher tiers (who earn it), but at least more fun than clicking buttons for a couple weeks just to get to the point where you can start battling at all.

[edit] By the way, my post here is meant to address OP's concerns. But personally I don't have much of a problem with how battling works now. This is just my personal opinion. But, I like to increase my pet's stats because I like the idea of having a strong pet. I also do gourmand and read books, it's a way of working on my pets for me. The fact that these numbers can then be used to battle with, or to get achievements and stuff, is like a nice bonus for me, but personally I would work on my pets either way just cuz it's my way of caring for them I guess :)

Low tier pets are definitely a good time, to a newbie. I know I had a TON of fun training up my main pet as a new player to Subeta. I created her and trained her myself long before tiers and each milesrone I reached with training, learning the system, buying new weopons, making new scrolls was marked by being able to defeat new challengers. Subeta's battle system is far more interesting and easy to learn than any other pet site battling I have tried. It actually makes sense and I was absolutely fueled to increase my pets stats. Who cares if it was costing me sP? That makes sense because she had to grind to get to a point to beat the bigger challengers.

I don't think changing the training times is going to do anything to make people that aren't interested in battling actually try it. Battling is a niche on the site just like beanbags or plushies or books. Some people just aren't interested in putting in the work to do it.

Plus the real issue is that we just don't have as many true blue new players on the site. That is what we need. This change would really mostly benefit current battlers to train up more of their 35 pets.

As someone with a T10 pet I look forward to getting a T13 pet so I can beat those harder challenges. You could argue I'm doing it the hard way too, only using the training centre, no boosters and never doing BQs. It's the effort of getting there which is half the fun when you can beat that new stronger opponent.