Before I start my complaint I want to make one thing clear - I know it's very easy for players to make sP.

I'm now going into the fictional world of Subeta to make my complaint. The prices in the Neugarten shops send the message that going vegan and sustainable living are fads for the wealthy. Charity's Subetapedia entry tells us that many Subeta citizens are poor. They couldn't afford to spend up to 65,000 sP for a vegan food item or 75,000 sP for a reusable shopping bag let alone 85,000 sP for a shampoo or conditioner bar.

Suggestions for next year.

1. Rumi gives out a free cookery book - how to make nourishing vegan meals with the cheapest ingredients and where to buy them.

2. Wesley's shop isn't strictly vegan so his free book could be how to make nourishing vegetarian meals with the cheapest ingredients and where to buy them

3. Shanti could give out a free "How To Make" book written by the Recycle Beast. It has projects which range from reusing old socks to instructions for making a tote bag out of an old t-shirt.

Back to the game. We players could get a free book the first time we visit each shop. Other than that the event will remain a good sP sink.

Note- Please move this to suggestions if it would be better there.

Wow, you know what, as much as I superficially want to blow this off because the Subeta economy is so skewed toward easy money (or maybe I'm just über-privileged in this world, I dunno) that the prices in there seem trivial to me, you make a REALLY good point and I'd like to thank you for thinking about this so deeply, .

I've been so dirt poor that literally the only food I had in my house to put together was oatmeal and canned spinach, and so I did and I was glad to have them. That was a vegan meal. Beans, rice and potatoes are other super cheap staples, and some brands of tofu are quite affordable. It is, in fact, extremely economical to eat vegan (and it can be done more nutritiously and satisfyingly than my example, those were just real bottom-of-the-barrel circumstances haha), and when people say it's an expensive and privileged diet, they're only thinking of meat analogs and exotic crops. And organic, which personally, I'm not convinced is really better (I'm cautiously supportive of GMOs, if not of the megacorps that sell them).

I'm not so poor now, but I'm still a cheapskate, and I still shop frugally. And I'm still vegan. Once in a while I splurge on Beyond burgers or some awesome soy chorizo or something but for the most part, eating vegan is just nice and cheap. As for sustainable stuff, heck, you're talking about reusing things (often "garbage" containers and materials that would otherwise be thrown away)...that saves a ton of money over buying new disposable things and having to replace them all the time because they're disposable!

So yeah, this is a pretty valid critique of the event, I guess. Not because sP is hard to come by, but just because it's an event that is blatantly trying to send a real-world message (one I agree with) and the high virtual cost is sending the wrong message. Although I hate to be critical of it because I think they did a nice job of balancing things this year and I love the veggie stuff.

(Btw y'all, don't hit me with that "I cAaAaN't go vegan cuz gluten and soy sensitivity and beans make me fart and stuff", that's fine, I'm not saying everyone can subsist on tofu and rice or whatever, I'm just saying an awful lot of very frugal meatless options happen to be available, so vegan options don't have to be portrayed in the exclusive realm of economic privilege. In fact, in many cultures, meat is but a seasoning sparingly added to the mostly-vegan bulk of the diet.)

These are kind of meant to be gourmet prepared foods and artisanal soaps and stuff. That's not really cheap in the real world either, is it? Meanwhile all the individual ingredients for these foods are sold year-round in the food shop for super cheap. I don't know how the Neugarten item prices break suspension of disbelief here.

You have a point about the artisanal vegan cheeses and stuff, but I mean... I make really awesome homemade vegan sushi rolls, if I do say so myself, and the ingredients are cheap as dirt! Rice and a few random veggies I mean, come on, what is this price.

Buddah(sic) Bowls sound like some new age money grab baloney, but I guarantee you I can make a delicious, nutritious bowl of rice, veggies, and tofu any day for a whole lot cheaper than that!

The point is the message being sent here, that vegan foods need to be expensive, and they absolutely don't. If you're willing to do the assembly yourself, you can make all this stuff SUPER economically.

Have you been to the fancy, artisanal dairy cheese section of the store recently? That's not cheap either, like holy cow lol

You can say that for just about any dining experience. You're paying for the service, not the individual ingredients.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the criticism here. OP is saying Neugarten prices are too expensive for Subeta's "poor" to afford, but as an in-universe explanation it doesn't really seem like Neugarten is targeted at that demographic in the first place.

I also don't really think anyone is looking at the sP price on these items and trying to price out what a real-world vegan diet would cost. What is 55,000 sP in USD? This is Subeta, where watermelon slices somehow costs more than diamonds, and I think everyone understands that Subeta prices are not reflective of real-world pricing.

I think that is precisely the critique being leveled here. It is, in fact, being targeted at the "rich Subeta elite" demographic who can afford to spend literal millions to buy all the things in the Neugarten shops (I did that, I bought all the things, it cost millions). Yeah, most of us who have been here a while won't have any problem with that, but I'm certain a lot of users can't afford to buy all those things and are looking at those prices like daaaamnnn... And it doesn't really matter, right? Because they're pixels, and you can save up, and buy them next year, yada yada.

The point of this post was that since the event is obviously trying to preach a real life message, it could do that in a better manner by not characterizing sustainable living as something only the wealthy can do. Everyone can do this. Everyone SHOULD do their part to live sustainably (whether that's reducing meat consumption or one-time-use plastic usage or whatever). But setting all these things at this price point reinforces the idea that veganism and sustainability are a mere fad for the elite, and they're not.

I'm seriously not mad about the event though, I think it's great and I love the items. The OP just got me thinking about it and I think they have a really good point. Also I'm not really trying to argue with you or anything; I think you're absolutely right, we're just making different points.

The thing is - what is subeta poor? If we look at the userbase, well...

Therefore, these prices WOULD be affordable for the poor users. Like, one subeta point isn't much. Does the NPC economy work on the same logic as our economy?

We don't know how much is poverty in this situation. Would be nice to have numbers, but...really, we don't know anything

Remember, the event is aimed at users. Real life players of the game. Not the lore-rooted fictional populace that's too poor to afford food, vegan or otherwise. It's meant to be an sP sink mechanic and I really can't help but feel that it's being a lil bit blown out of proportion.

If the prices really bug people that much, maybe a little blurb with a reason for the prices might soothe minds. It's not expensive because it's vegan. It's expensive because they're (I'm making this part up) trying to help more local businesses, that can then hire more of those poor people & help them put food on their tables, so every purchase you make helps improve the lives of many others. Prettymuch everything in the Neugarten item pool looks like handmade food & goods too, which likely adds to the price. Idk, imagine 500 people coming by every day for 10 days to buy stuff. Imagine having to make 500+ (b/c some of us get multiples for TCs) vegan burgers, or sushi, or buddha bowls, various spreads, dips & snacks for an event. That's thousands of food items made by, what? 4 people? I'm def okay with them charging more for the work and effort, because holyshit I would die.

Also remember that a good chunk of last year's vegan items are now available for restocking in the main shops. I, for one, am lowkey hoping that this trend continues next year. :X

The books you mentioned gave me some ideas--what if the "how-to" books worked a little like the Genetech Lab or Bakery, except that any item fitting a certain description--like "shirt/top/blouse" or "pants/skirt/dress"--could be used to recycle it into something different? This could be a way to get rid of excess items in circulation, plus teach users about reducing, reusing, and recycling.

I work with a volunteer organization that's (fingers crossed!) planning on doing some skill shares/free-school in the fall, and the event on Subeta could be framed in the same way. An NPC offers to teach people how to upcycle their old clothing into a chic new outfit or a useful everyday-carry bag, and people could use any old items they have lying around. Plenty of items are given out for quest rewards and through vending, so I think it would help remove that sP barrier and make Neugarten closer to its concept (if that makes sense).

To encourage the idea of sharing resources, users could also do an item donation drive, and give away items in order to get achievements or random new items (like Fantine after Morostide does with pumpkins).

Yeah, I gotta agree you guys are reading a little too much into this.

Like, I just spent less than 5 minutes doing 10 wizard quests and got over 300k. ~75k for an item might seem like a lot, but in the scope of Subeta's economy, it's peanuts.

Considering that the shops are being run by essentially a farmer, his daughter, and a local seamstress, I don't think this event reads as elitist? And again, people understand that Subeta prices are not even remotely indicative of what you'd pay for these items in real life, and no part of this is meant to be an instructional guide for people interested in going vegan.

I think Neugarten does a fine job of raising awareness of the possibilities of that lifestyle, which seems to be the intent behind this event. I don't agree that the pricing is at all an issue.

Surely don't mind free books, but don't really need them either. In terms of whether the items are expensive for average user - earning that sP won't take much longer that any other currency for other events, it'll take less time actually. And we have to have something to do during events, for god's sake. As for trying to justify the reasoning for it from the lore: it's about as logical as battling with your pet on one continent while it's still in training on another continent... Subeta's lore is cute and all, but it's not super cohesive. It's supposed to add to the gameplay, not justify it.

That's an awesome idea! Plus it would give us more to do for this event than just "buy all the things"...I was done with that on the first day.

To be clear, I'm not at all against the idea of an sP sink...we do need them. A lot of people have a lot of sP. The thing is, I think if you haven't been in the position of trying to promote these ideas in the real world, you maybe aren't aware of the massive amount of silly arguments you get about "But imported quinoa is exploitative!" and "But organic fair-trade whateverthefuck is way too expensive and how dare you imply that everyone on Earth should subsist on that, check your privilege!" and like, it's exhausting to listen to that when regular old beans and rice and carrots and cabbage exist lol. They aren't good arguments but you encounter them a lot when some of the most visible vegan foods really do cost more than their traditional counterparts. At least for now, because they don't have a large market share and have to make up for the fact that they don't sell in bulk like your basic, subsidized cheddar cheese or ground beef or whatever.

It would be neat if this event could also focus on less-fancy options that don't cost a lot. Like combine cheap veggies from the food market and make vegan stew, I dunno. But yeah, I know that 95% of the site has no interest in making vegan stew, so whatever. :P

Again, I'm not trying to incite a riot or anything, I'm just saying it's food for thought.

OTOH, I think these prices are commensurate with items bought at allegarten/neugarten on a regular basis. They are not too expensive when you consider them in that way.

OTOH, I understand where you're coming from as far as affordability goes, and I think it would be a cool suggestion for Subeta to implement something veganish or sustainableish that is a more cheap and regular. Maybe a Charity counterpart, or maybe even Charity herself could be inspired by neugarten to offer more vegan-friendly items in her shop. Not too many to take away from the exclusivity of the holiday, but enough that being vegan does not seem exclusive itself.

Also, in case I need the disclaimer: I am not a vegan, but I can see the benefit of this. I'm also not very sustainable IRL, though I'd like to be. :)

I want to say that Amber did mention adding new vegan recipes to Fantine's baking later, possibly once prices got more stable?

Some new Genetech combos, or even straight up cooking as a site feature would be neat. I think plenty of users would like cooking as a site activity, but pls not something as aggravating, grindy, frustrating and (imo) not worth the time & effort as baking.

Sadly, the one big issue with doing this is (yet again :c ) money/cost. Prices tend to shoot up drastically when some new recipe is released either in Genetech or in Fantine's. Suddenly, a head of cabbage isn't 26k, it's 5m or more and over time, it slowly sinks down to 100k-ish (depends on rarity). Because it's now an ingredient for something bigger and not a boring normal item. I know staff drop the item rarity sometimes to bring prices back to normal, but baking and Genetech both feel like they need a lot of hand-holding from staff to curb the price insanity.

I really can't see the elitism here, and I really can't see how it harms the real life message either, and this coming from somebody who grew up poor too (and this is only just starting to look better). I think most people are aware that there is a disconnect between sP and real life prices and I don't think many people walk away from a game thinking that the in-game prices in a made up currency has any bearing on the real world.

I read it more as a "hey, go local more often" and nothing more and nothing less. It reminds me of the farmer markets my university did, where the university would let local farms set up shop in campus, or the local festivals my town does from time to time.

It's getting late so I don't know how much sense this is going to make. Other people also made posts while I was writing it.

Real world explanation for turning Alegarten into Neugarten - the staff ran out of ideas for meat based sausages, Bavarian style clothing and conventional types of beer. Neugarten allowed them to add vegan food and, this year, a sustainability stall.

Fictional explanation for the change - Gunter, after years of guilt about killing his brother, had some kind of breakdown. He turned vegan and altered the event.

Real world explanation for having the event - it's an sP sink and players can buy items to go in their wardrobes, put in pet treasure chests or galleries or feed to their pets. It's very easy for us players to make sP and Neugarten prices are dirt cheap compared to items in the Millionaire Center and the Antique Shop.

So back to the fictional Subeta world. Anne and her friends are running an event which is supposed to promote the idea that it's OK to be a vegetarian or vegan and sustainability is good for the fictional planet of Subeta. (Sustainability and environmental issues already exist in this fictional world - the Recycle Beast sells recycled items in his shop and mines near the protected Peka Glade National Park cause problems with environmentalists and pets can be green energy lobbyists.) Neugarten, though, is a shopping spree for rich Subeta citizens. (the fictional ones, not us players).

Instead of making dozens of quotes I'll link to two posts which I think have made good points relating to this and then quote from another.

Post#13 by Atomic

Post#9 by Marcus Some activity ideas.

A very good idea by -

This combined with something on the lines of Marcus's ideas would make Neugarten a more inclusive event in the fictional world. The rich spend money which helps local businesses There are vegan and vegetarian recipes which cater for all budgets so the rich can use expensive meat replacements if they want to while poorer folk know they don't have to. The rich can buy expensive sustainable items from Saheros and the money will help the people in Saheros who made these items. On a sustainability level, though, a shopping bag made out of an old t-shirt is worth just as much as one costing 75,000 sP.

Marcus's ideas could be fun activities players could do if they want to.

I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian by the way.

I never took the prices to be a reflection on the ability to eat vegan or be sustainable in real life. I just took it as equivalent to what items were selling as when it was alegarten.

Subeta prices are just ridiculous overall. Dog biscuits and cheesecake two to three times more expensive that a dishwasher? Does that make me feel like owning pets is prohibitively expensive in real life? Or that the baker adds such a high value to the product? No, of course not.

That said, I would love to see the books OP mentions as buyable items next year at prices that reflect the prices of everything else in the shops.

TL;DR: I kind of feel like a lot of the crap we do isn't something that other subetans do and can't quite be judged in that way. HOWEVER. I really love it when people think about the lore in game! ❤️ Not trying to put anyone down or invalidate what other people think.

As for something 'plot' relevant. I feel that we, the collective player character, are supposed to be well-off and connected. There was some bit about the Masq we go to being only for the rich. (was a weird little light-bulb moment, because I hadn't considered it before like the sheltered, rich person I/we just might be. :P )

So, maybe we're not like the average subetan; we waste our money buying overpriced items for fun & to feel good about ourselves, we go on an around the world cruise with council leaders, we can sort of influence elections, we get to take on fetch quests that pay WAY TOO MUCH from our rich exterminator friend because we've got those connections, we have massive collections of toys/stickers/etc to show off to other rich folk, & we can own waaay too many pets (no sane or normal person needs as many pets as we're allowed to own. ha!).

Maybe we're being charged a lot more than other people because the NPCs know we'll pay it, like the dummy we are. haha. We get some sort of first access to these holidays/events, with jacked up prices, and the regular sort of people have their own events later or elsewhere or not at all. But, since we live in our own little world, these are just the ones or the parts of ones that we go to because it's what we know.