I'm being careful how I put this so as not to offend against a particular rule. I apologise if it seems somewhat vague as a result.

I know that by submitting CWs to the site, we agree to assign copyright in them to Subeta. I know that the rules state clearly that the site reserves the right to redraw or change CWs after acceptance as staff see fit. This is not a post calling for debate on what the rules are, or what the rules should be; I don't feel this is the appropriate venue for that, and I would also like to keep my account, thanks.

What I am asking, though, is that if staff already know or are currently considering redrawing any further CWs at present or in the immediate future, is it possible for that to be communicated to the users?

The site provides us with a specific forum for trading CWs, and allows us to do so in CSC which is often (albeit not exclusively) purchased in real cash from the site. That activity is completely within the rules. Staff know that a not-insignificant number of users are buying and selling for what is - in truth - 'real' money - CWs which right now there is significant dubiety over whether they will be redrawn. Redraws have already happened, and without any guidance from staff on the issue, users don't know if the redrawing of that specific class of items is over, or if it will continue.

I appreciate that redraws and revamps are a general feature of site life, and not confined to CWs or cash shop items by any means. (Or even items. Pet revamps happen to mixed reactions pretty regularly.) But right at this time, there's a specific subgroup of items which are being traded for cash-equivalent, and the userbase doesn't know whether or not they will be redrawn significantly. There's been no indication of official policy on these items discussed on site. It's been a topic of significant discussion offsite - in which staff members have participated - which is increasing the uncertainty. Specific items within that subclass have been singled out for discussion, and some of those have already been redrawn. It's not unreasonable for users to be questioning whether other items in that class are also going to be changed by staff. Meanwhile the site is allowing those items to be freely traded for real money equivalent. It might be within the rules, but I think it would be fairer to users to give us some idea of whether redraws for those items are over. I can't really further my argument as to why those items are a special class in this forum, so I'll leave the subtext out of it.

I would just like to know, as a user directly affected by this, whether this spell of redraws is over. My recollection of the initial spell of redraws - when the rules were changed early on regarding CWs, tributes and 'four changes' - is that staff advised on site in a forum discussion that all the necessary redraws had been done. Speaking only for myself, I would just really appreciate a quick confirmation of whether or not the same applies here. In short: are we done?

(I'm not pinging anyone specific to this thread for their comment because in the wider context, I feel it would be inappropriately targeting. And honestly, I just want to know what is going to happen to my stuff. )

edit: I edited this for a confusing typo, apologies, not for content.

I can't guarantee that we're ever "done" revamping items. We don't plan to EVER revamp any custom items; when we have to, it's because someone violated the rules and we have no choice. It's not something we're going to announce to users on a regular basis.

I can say that as of this exact second, there are no CW revamps in the works. Will that change tomorrow? Well, that depends on users and their honesty with tribute items ;) But as off 2:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, no CWs are being revamped.

I really, really appreciate you answering this for me. Silly as it probably seems to anyone who's not involved in the CW side of things, I have an awful lot of CSC tied up in my collection and this was preying on my mind. I wasn't at all looking for a guarantee - I realise entirely why you'll never be in a position to give that - just an indication of whether it was 'done for now'.

So, thank you very much for this; I really appreciate it!

I don't think that this is something that should be communicated to users. It's not going to be something that changes anything, the site isn't going to stop the revamp of an item that is breaking rules, and they certainly aren't going to refund any money (or CSC) for the item.

It does suck that items even have to be redrawn in the first place, especially when they tend to have a specific style from an artist that is pretty different from the traditional site items, but I can't see people being given that information in advance as being something that should happen.

...

We cannot discuss the issues behind those revamps, since they involve personal user business, sorry. And if this topic starts down that path, it will have to be locekd!

We can't talk about frozen users onsite. Edited out the second sentence because better safe than sorry.

Edited my previous post so I'm not targeting anyone or derailing this unintentionally, but this topic probably IS going to wind up down that path because people kinda get curious when they see a random revamp that looks like nothing but art being updated when it's not supposed to be updated unless it's a copyright issue. I really don't mean to be rude, so please don't take it that way. Your job has to be enough of a pain in the butt anyway sometimes. But the staff might want to think of a better way to handle things like this than saying "we can't talk about it". Or, at least add a line that the site has the right to change/revamp the art without warning for any reason at its own discretion somewhere conspicuous on the submission page. Maybe in the bottom with the check boxes are about art permissions and limited batches. That way, there isn't any confusion, and no one can be butthurt because they are taking that risk and accepting that it is a possibility. Also, that way the staff doesn't HAVE to give a reason, so even if it's just because y'all think it's ugly or something, no one has had to know, haha. (not that I think you'd even accept something you hated that much, and get that you don't have to give a reason anyway)

I don't think it says anything like that there other than that the art becomes of the property of Agoge inc, which is pretty vague as to what that entails (well, obviously that the site can do whatever they want with it) but some people need it spelled it out for them, because reading between the lines doesn't always work with something like this. The site's majority are teenagers and young adults, not lawyers. ...And if I'm just missing it, than whoops, sorry. But I've read that page a few times so I'm pretty sure it's not there.

But, on topic, about items that need to be changed in the future: Sometimes with the tributes it could just be honest mistakes so maybe be able to notify the submitter that it needs to be changed and possibly allow them to give input to what change they would prefer. Whether or not their idea is used could still being up to the staff's discretion. Or, send them a note/event about the item and give them a time limit to make the changes themself, or get ahold of the original artist of the item and have them do it in a reasonable time limit where the staff can then do it themselves if the user does not or refuses to. Some cases where maybe an item was accepted but not credited as a tribute being a warnable/freezable offense, it would make sense that the user really might not have that right. So either way that may have to be a case by case basis sort of thing. But I can't imagine it happens so often that it wouldn't be handled on a case by case basis or give those that do the queue or the UAs or whoever handles copyright issues too much more work to do.

I honestly don't know who you're talking about. Or who drew that item. I just noticed it was different was all. I like the new version better, honestly. Edited that post either way.

--Er... trying to be really vague here since I'm not intentionally looking at one specific user... hopefully this isn't targeting x_X it's not meant to be but so much is at the forefront of peoples minds atm...-- Good god getting the original artist to do it would be a painful process. It's bad enough the staff have to clean up the mess, the item belongs to the site, let them deal with it quickly and get it out of the way. Mistakes happen, but so far all cases of redraws bar one have been down to MAJOR user error, be it repeated ignoring of plain and obvious rules or deliberate doesn't matter. It's not just be one case of 'I forgot to include that tribute image' that's why they've ended up flagged up in the first place, every case (bar one) I can think of has been because a user has some under suspicion of repeat offences and why the hell should they get the opportunity? Heck as far as I'm concerned part of the punishment is seeing your item changed by someone else. I've had an item changed that I didn't submit and it still felt like a kick in the gut and I'm twice as careful about changes now than ever, if I'd been allowed to change it myself I'd never have gotten that. That item is there forever and constant reminder that staff are doing their jobs, that item is redrawn by staff so not only does it now obey the rules and punish the artist/submitter by taking it out of their hands it STOPS BEING THEIRS and that is a punishment. Your item, your art, has just been taken from you, taken and changed and it hurts, this is a punishment and it should remain as such.

It is a shame for users who have bought the originals and don't like the new versions. But people getting angry at staff for correcting a user's error need to reconsider their options.

It's kind-of-but-not-quite like ordering something in the Art Market... if what you get is of a drastically different quality, there might be recourse... but if it's just 'different' from what you expected or what the person's previous examples seemed to be? The recourse is with that user. If they're not available, that is an unfortunately 'sucks to be you' situation.

I don't think any revamp of an item's appearance needs to be 'pre communicated' to users (real $ or not) but especially not when it's for reasons of rule-breaking. Better to have that handled expediently and privately. Staff comments regarding CW users actions already toe kind of a fine line at times.

The CW is not permanently locked to your account, and the quality or appearance did not change so drastically that it lost all value. If it lost some of it's hyper-inflated value, that is the nature (and built in danger) of artificial hyper-inflation.

There's also always the pawn shop, which isn't a completely terrible return (on official price) if you just can't stand the item (for entirely subjective reasons) to the point where you can't be bothered to try to sell it.

I have very few CWs and I doubt any of them have been revamped but have any been revamped? I've never seen one so seeing this topic has gotten me curious as to if that's happened at all. (If you want to PM me about it feel free but honestly just curious)

@blackwolf_2009

CWs have been redrawn in the past, yes. I can't say which off-hand but they definitely have.

Oh okay. I just haven't seen it happen to any I got so I didn't know for sure.

@blackwolf_2009 CWs don't get revamped for having outdated art or fixing shading or something like that. I think they only get revamped if they break tribute and reference rules.

[QUOTE]It is a shame for users who have bought the originals and don't like the new versions. But people getting angry at staff for correcting a user's error need to reconsider their options.[/QUOTE]

Can I call you my husbando and marry you in Vegas?

Seriously, we are never told in advance about revamps. imo, if someone has to be told about the revamp, it's the artist, and artist only. And, if the artist is no longer here, why should staff track everyone that bought the item ever?

When a CW is going to be changed, would it be possible to contact the users who own that CW, and let them tell you one thing they'd like to see in the updated version? (Give them like 24hrs or something to respond?) While I, and many others, completely understand the severity of the problem at hand, those of us who purchased the item also feel punished. While it won't please everyone, and you definitely can't do everything, there might be a general trait that particular item has that the users would like to see in the updated version.

I don't know, just an idea. ^_^;

I figure that would fall to the owner on that one.

This is something we will not be doing, sorry.

If I was displeased with a revamp, I'd just politely ask the artist for my money back. I know this isn't possible for all CWs though.