Q1) I'm not even lying when I say I hate the idea of getting rid of the training center. Maybe instead just like...fix the opponents at low tier so fighting them is WORTH something? Right now the gap between beginners, mid tier, and high tier is actually insane and doesn't make sense in my opinion. Maybe make the jumps between each group a little less ridiculous and easier to ease to the next level while boosting the exp appropriately? The training center isn't the bad guy here.

Q2) I'm fine with the way pets gain stats. As someone who's been hand training for years, I'm probably bias but I don't think it's broken. Could it stand to get a few updates? Maybe. The training/battling system is outdated and sorta like...a relic at this point but let's be real I don't think anyone is holding their breathe on that to get a revamp anytime soon. Training works the way it is right now, but beginning made a little more beginner friendly would probably only help it.

Q 1: I don't think you need to remove the training center to make grinding easy opponents better. As it stands when training a single pet, you get maybe 2-3 stats a day unless your setting timers, but BQs gives you 10-15 stats a day up until T13, so the training center isn't really driving huge stat growth in the early stages, but Auto training esspecially early really does.

Q 2: Generally how do you feel about the way that pets gain stats now? I think the problem is that for the most part it is pretty easy to gain 15-20 stats a day reguardless of where you are in battling at the time, mostly through battle quests, and thats true if you are a 10/10/10/10 pet or a high T12 pet, and most of the content is in the middle tiers 4-9 and then again at the highest levels, but T1-4 can be super boring, and it can take weeks to get through them as a f2p player without boosters or auto training.

I think if you make it more rewarding to grind through battles to progress, and also drastically reduce training times in the T1-T4 range you could make it a lot more fun to get into battling or to train a second pet.

I think training at the high end is probably at a good place. If we were talking about this 10 years ago, I think that boosters like tomes are probably not the best way to go since they don't increase in cost as you go up the scale, but I think its impossible to change that now without the feeling that the bigger battlers are pulling up the ladder behind us at this point.

Q1. I am very much opposed to the idea of levelling up only through battle, and losing the training center. 😠 The training center is for me, the only real way I have to consistently keep my battle pet leveling up. There's days I have so much going on I can't even get on long enough to do battle quests. 😫 If the only way I could build up my pet from now on was to pretend the rest of my life doesn't exist while grinding away in the BC for hours every day for a handful of stats, I'd be done with the battle scene before I ever really got good at it. 😢 I feel this would drive away way more mid tier and beginner battlers than it would draw. The battle system is daunting enough for new users 😱 taking away what is probably one of the most easily understood ways to level up a pet seems a bit counter-intuitive.
Maybe improve it, rather than remove it?

Q2. I think it's fine as it is, I have options, and to me that is what keeps things interesting. If I have the time to sit here and grind out some battle quests or deal with opponents I hadn't gotten to yet, I get the exp. 😄 If I have some extra sp I'll sink it into boosters. 😎 Or, as above, if life is crazy and I'm lucky if I get enough time on here to do one or two sets of quests and shove my pet in for another round of training, then I don't feel like I'm being punished for not 'putting in the time' because I have other things I need to be doing.

I would personally dislike it if training was removed. I'm one of those people who have a build in mind for a pet that can't battle (no speed or defense) just for giggles. I also have a lot of pets that I don't battle with but they still have stats so they can have jobs. It would be very difficult to battle with that pet, especially in the tiers where you get more than 10 EXP per battle. I guess I have time imagining how I'm suppose to get weak, untrained pets into battling for them to be able to reliably take down an opponent to get more stats to make them take opponents more reliably.

I'm also pretty content with all the ways we can gain stats right now. I'm only a casual battler because I'm not interested in upgrading my set, so I like the option of still being able to training/gain stats slowly without having to spend millions in upgrades.

Training stops being useful after a certain point because it takes too long per session. I think training is great early on for getting started, but by T10 or so it's starting to wind down in usefulness. I'd honestly get rid of the level stat and just encompass training time based on tier. I think there needs to be more variety for easy opponents, and make more new ones that give way more EXP.

But I wouldn't get rid of training. Autotraining in a week's time can get you a pet that can handle some opponents easily.

As it stands, I like the way stats are gained right now. Except, I was hoping maybe there could be a chance where when you complete a course, you can get bonus points like you do on Neo. You could get 2-3 more points extra. Just to make it more worthwhile if you can get 6 points in a session, possibly up to maybe more points than usual in a day without the bonuses.

tl;dr: I really think training early on is very balanced for a newcomer and generally a pet will climb up the low tiers in no time, especially with auto-training which is a godsend. Opponents could stand to give more EXP though. 1000 goes a much longer way than 100 imo. However, training becomes useless once your pet has pretty big numbers (by T10/T11 I think it becomes useless). Perhaps bonus points could be thrown into training sessions like they are on Neo, maybe to speed things up a bit, maybe make it more incentive to train consistently?

Perhaps it's time to get rid of the level stat and reduce the training times down to the pet's tier instead. Would 120 minutes per session be too short for a T12 though? I don't know, I think that would need to be discussed certainly!

As for how stats are gained, I like it. Stat boosters are primarily helpful for those of us in the higher tiers. I love getting Oracle quests. I love the random RE that grows my pet by a stat. I love getting bonus stats from collecting income. I think it is balanced there! (as someone who has been at this for some time now and is content with 6 battle pets, I feel like I cannot give much a helpful opinion on the matter of training and raising battle pets. I personally have no qualms with it other than the TC becoming obsolete for higher tiers)

I actually haven't used the training center in a few years so maybe I'm biased. But to me, I think it's perfectly fine to remove the training center but keep boosters as a way to gain stats. A lot of the boosters I use are ones I've gained from killing opponents so I feel like it's all connected in that way.

I think pets can gain stats at a rapid rate if we know what we're doing (grinding exp out on CS challengers if I have them all unlocked, grinding BQs, grinding boosters, grinding battle tokens) but it's harder for newer players to learn those tricks so it can be pretty slow for new players. I also kind of think low tier battling is really boring so I'd approve of a lower xp cost for lower tiers.

I also think the grind from tier 13 to cap is ridiculous and exp requirements should be lowered. It takes like a year of BQs to cap, that's just a very high investment.

i definitely think opponents in the easy to very hard difficulties need their EXP raised significantly. It would definitely be more incentive for people to battle and raise their stats up faster if they can gain a lot of EXP soon. And then they can get further in BQs, and then they stay invested. I don't think Eclipse giving my one baby pet 44 total EXP at 10 wins is very...exciting. xD

If it were 444 EXP, that would be better, maybe 1,444 would be ideal? (also I'll never say no to a challenger reset pleasepleaseprettyplease)

Capping would take way more than a year. You might not remember, but when I hit T12 I saved to 11m experience points. It took about 10 months, and that included the challenger reset. Didn't even get from fairly fresh T12 to T13 from that.

A1: I would welcome a change like this if it was not difficult to train up to the next level challengers. The current experience would not be satisfactory enough to grow quickly enough to reach the top challengers. Do you want pets able to fight difficult challengers, to take months, years or decades from starting?

A2: I like the way pets gain stats now with the exception of Intel

And 44EXP isn't even one stat. They start at 150 EXP unless you get level or something but that's 100 still.

I've tried to grind my T1 pets, hoping to get some stats (for jobs!) but it really is a slow process. I know there are tomes and amulets behind the 10 wins but beyond that, 10 EXP per battle just doesn't go far when you want to turn EXP into stats. I also know BQs are a thing but lately I've been opting just have my T7 do all of them instead so that he can get the EXP he also needs. I can do things with him so I like training him better.

I use it right up to the cap. It's much cheaper than boosters and a must if you are trying to work on more than one pet.

I do have one question for you--what is your objective here? Are you trying to attract non-battlers to battle? Make things more enjoyable for existing battlers? Simplify the codebase? Is this for the existing BC, or are you asking all of these questions because you're thinking about moving battling to new.subeta? Because my thoughts will be pretty different depending on your objective.

Personally, I do think the training center is actually an impediment for new battlers, even though that may sound counter-intuitive. In any other RPG, you somehow get stronger by battling enemies. There's usually some sort of skill tree or direction that you put in, but that's maybe a few dozen choices made over the course of the game. Not literally 35,000 tiny choices about your exact numeric build.

It is actually really, really easy to build your pet up from t1 through BQs without crazy over-leveling first. And yet it's pretty rare to see people bothering to fight with t1s outside of an "oh, there's a plot and I've never battled before but I have to for this step" scenario. Experienced battlers throw new pets in training until they're needed, because they're focusing on their bigger pets.

But once I did actually battle with a new pet from tier 1! I gave him all the BQs he could handle, and fought opponents to ten wins as he grew. Now I did use the training center as well, which helped him grow even faster, but BQs are actually really well balanced for every tier. You don't need expensive weapons, and it absolutely does not take "hours" a day. The time it takes is spiky depending on where your pet is at, but especially starting off, we're talking wayyy less than a half-hour a day. (And when it does take more time, it's because you're challenging yourself. You can stick to the levels you can obliterate and get a lot of stats in five minutes every day.)

The problem is, non-battlers do not know this. Battling is really intimidating when you start, because if you've ever played an RPG, it's really counter-intuitive. You open up the 'challenge opponent' page and it's just a wall of opponents, and you have no way of knowing which ones you should be able to beat. Maybe you try Aboxalypse first because he's the first on the list, and you're barely making a dent! And then even if you do figure out how to flail out a win against Willowisp... nothing really happens? You get EXP, but what does that mean? Maybe you flail your way to the exp page, then you still have to figure out what stats to invest in.

But instead, you can just blindly train them in the training center and tell yourself that one day it will amount to something. It gives you a false sense of security that when seasonal or plot opponents roll around, you'll be in a better spot to deal with them. Which isn't entirely false, but it's only like 25% of the puzzle. You still need to figure out mechanics, find some weapons. You're probably still intimidated, plus you're bitter all that time you spent training didn't amount to as much as it should have.

Anyway, all of that to say. The training center is not the problem, even though it's one thing that encourages "bad habits" for beginners. So if you're starting over from scratch? Kill it and never look back. Stick to the principles that make other games easier to step into, and don't give a second thought to all the complexities and oddities we've inherited over the years.

But if this is about updating what we already have, my suggestion would be just a small update to battle quests. Make it worthwhile for non-battlers to at least attempt the first five quests. Unique items, achievements for keeping a streak of completing at least one BQ, quest points--anything to make it worthwhile for the non-battlers to spend five minutes on a day until they realize battling isn't as scary as they thought.

Then if you want to take it farther, make an autogrow option that spends EXP automatically as you gain it (you could have a few sets of patterns that get arbitrarily assigned if you want to give it more spice). Experienced battlers obviously wouldn't use it, and hopefully people would turn it off once they get more comfortable, but it would remove a lot of the overwhelming decision points from the early game. Fewer decision points mean less friction, means less churn.

Updating exp from Easy/Medium opponents wouldn't be a terrible idea by any means, but that alone isn't going to make the people that aren't battling now decide to start battling.

...But once again, I'm not even sure if that's what you're aiming for! And if you are rebuilding from scratch... lemme tell you, I have a lot of Thoughts on that. ;)

Boy, this got long. Bolded sentences are tl;dr. 🤷‍♀️

Q1: I enjoy the variety that we have currently outside of just battling (training, boosters, random events, etc.) and would not like to see that going away completely. In regards to the training center specifically: for the most part, around mid-tier and onwards, BQs are far more effective in stats progression. I do think that in the early tiers (1-4), the efficiency of training - especially autotraining - is too good compared to actual battling. Increasing EXP gain on Easy-Hard challengers would bridge the gap and give more emphasis on battling. However, I would not recommend needing to grind / farm in excess as the early tier challengers are not exactly that interesting to put on repeat.

Q2: Overall, I'm positive on how we gain stats today. I continue to make use of autotraining to passively progress multiple pets, utilize BQs to focus in on training, and leverage boosters to accelerate growth. I especially appreciate challengers that drop boosters as it feeds back into progression and feels rewarding to strive for the next threshold / drop.

1. Take training away or leave it. I love the idea of bolstering exp drops. This game has a ton of potential to draw users because it’s one of the most successful turn based games around… anywhere! I think the training center should be a secondary method of gaining stats. Most of the “gains” should definitely come from battling. Bonus points if we implement a system that rewards some type of grinding. Let us battle challengers for hours and hours and hours. Keep the site engagement up!

2. I like the the way we gain stats, the problem is it’s too slow. We don’t need zero to hero in a day. But the current system forces (new) users to wait months/years, which is off-putting in the introductory stage. We should reward people for spending an abundance of time working on it. Similar games: RuneScape, final fantasy, world of Warcraft, etc. have a system that rewards you with levels based on how committed you are to a goal. I would love to see Subeta implement this type of system. Allow new users who have all the motivation and excitement to grind their way up the ladder!

I think it's a bad idea (to remove the training center). Some people may not want to battle, and they might want to do jobs, but jobs require strength and levels.

Perhaps training can affect just level and strength, while battling can affect those and also defense and health? That would work, I think.

There are also random events that boost stats. And books for intelligence, as well as the spindles game.

Would boosters stop working? I had saved some for when I trained a pet up to the limit... if they are going to stop working, I'd like to know so I can use them on a pet before that point.

edited:

I have now read through the thread and I think 's post was the most useful & insightful. I especially liked the suggestion about - full revamp vs small tweak & think that was pretty close to perfect as suggestions.

The only caveat I'd have is that - even if battle gets fully revamped, it interacts with other systems in the site and those, if not revamped, need to have adjustments made to account for the battle revamp. And I guess it does not seem like there will be time & energy & consensus on details for that huge of a change, so the small tweaks -

especially:

1- additional non-battle-related rewards that will make non-battlers want to do at least the first few battle quests ... (an achievement, a currency, random special items) 2- an option to auto-spend exp when doing battle quests - maybe on the battle quest return page when you succeed, it could have a button "go to spend exp" (links to the current exp spending page) and "auto spend exp" (applies exp in a pattern generally considered beneficial).

...

I'll just also add that my experience with battling has been that it's been slow. I'm still not yet to tier 5 after 3+ years of intermittently trying to get better at it. Battle quests are tricky to do as it's a matter of having to make sure pet is fed that I want to battle with, and then choose which pet will get the bonus...

Haven't read everything here so I might be repeating things or missing good points but anyways:

Q1 I would miss the training center very much. When I started palying subeta 15(!) years ago, I randomly trained one of my pets. It was only because of this that I got into battling later. I would never have had the sP or patience to start otherwise. For lazy people like me, or people who don't usually have time every day to invest into battling quests or making sP, but decide to stay on the site for a long time, it's a good alternative. But of course this is a small percentage of people...

Q2 As said, happy with it with the exception of intelligence. I rather dislike level in general though, and especially when using tomes.

Please do not get rid of the training center. It is very helpful in giving battle pets a boost when they are resting from battles or are a little bit short of experience points in order to gain more stats. It also helps when your pets are in the Employment Center and need to boost stats in order to get a job promotion.

I too would love to find out the sudden interest in battling from staff. It's fantastic, I love that we're getting attention! Anything to get more people into battling. I think the system is easy to figure out if you don't try to overthink it, but I kind of had a head start early on cause I trained Elfric on the side before the tiers system dropped. And then he was suddenly a T4 once tiers were introduced. So I missed out on a lot of the usual stuff that comes with raising a new battle pet because now if I want to raise a new battle pet, I know how. That's why it's frustrating for me with the battle guide because I feel as though there's a component I'm missing due to my own experiences! xD I can't unlearn what I've learned.

I'm going to try and capture all of the feedback being given so far since some of the posts are lengthy and information could get lost:

1) What do you think about a system where the only way that your pets progress is by battling and spending experience. No more needing to train (or auto train) to catch up.

Responses: Some are ok with the removal of the training center, but many are not for the following reasons:

• Boosters and training center are another option to gain stats to add variety
• Boosters are a way to gain stats quickly so unless there is a big change to the amount of exp distributed through battling, it can deter people from wanting to train multiple pets or reach the cap
• Stats are used for more than just battling. They are requirements for the job agency and some people just don't want to be forced to battle
• The training center is simple and easy to use. whereas battling is not as easy to understand currently
• Keep the training center, but decrease the reliance on it by giving more incentives and rewards for the lower tiers in BQs.
• People like to passively train and not be forced to battle all the time. Taking away passive training puts people with less time to spend on subeta at a disadvantage for having a high tier pet or being able to participate in events.
• Battling at low tiers feels slow, inconsistent and unrewarding
• People like to see huge stat gains through boosting
• Both the training center and boosting are an sP sink
• Boosters are a way for friends to help each other gain stats as gifts
• Battle quests are beneficial for one or two pets at a time, but the current system makes it hard to focus on multiple pets. People like to pick a pet for battle quests to actively train and passively train the rest with the training center or boosters.

Q 2: Generally how do you feel about the way that pets gain stats now?

• Many options for base stat gains, fine the way it is
• Not as easy to get intelligence
• Stat gain is slow at the early tiers for new players. It can be fast for people that know what they are doing
• Challengers that drop boosters give incentive to keep battling for stat gains. Give exp dropped by challengers a boost
• Boosters are very helpful at the higher tiers where the exp cost in the current system goes up dramatically (3 times the cost in T13)
• Make grinding through challengers (obtaining x number of wins past 10) more rewarding

General concerns:

• What is being accomplished? What is the intent/goal for removing ways to gain stats? Depending on who you ask, people choose to battle for different reasons
• Will a new system make it more difficult to have multiple battle pets?
• Will you lose the stats you have already earned through boosters and the training center?
• Will boosters stop boosting? What will happen to these items? -Will you be able to gain intel through exp if boosters are removed? -Battling is very confusing for new battlers, casual battlers, and inexperienced battlers. There is a lot of apprehension around what weapons to buy, how to beat opponents, what mods to use, and what scrolls to use.
• Create better official guides that make all battlers (both new and old) aware of all the different ways you can grow your pet.