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Jul 13, 2022 3 years ago
Mieke
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Nope, that's just when they're offered this year! They're actually at a cabin, the ones last year looked SO cute! And SANTA comes?!

Random pictures from last year. I'm dying. SO CUTE.

SPOILER (click to toggle)

We're also doing pictures in the sunflower patch when we get back from vacation... a lot of pictures this year?! But we skipped Easter so.. I'm calling it good :P

I will say.. it is nice to not come up with everything alone haha.

And UGH on finding clothes. I realized today that two of my bathing suits, the elastic was shot on. I mean, they were.. quite a few years old. But still.. I wasn't prepared! :P I picked up two bikini bra tops from walmart... and then some tank tops to go over them because uh.. I'm not about that life anymore! Though I do have two long sleeve tops that I wear most of the time, anyway.

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
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Ruan

Ohh I remember seeing that on Facebook now. I thought it was adorable!! The Santa's cabin place. Love it. We do breakfast with Santa at the lodge, Mitch(one of the masons) is Santa. I have pictures of my kids with Santa for years because of that. I even got one last year. I hope to get one this year too but we will see.

I got two new swimsuits this year. have worn one, once. Sigh I do two piece tanktop style suits. With either shorts or bikini bottoms with a skirt, if you know what I mean lol

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
Mieke
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I wanted a tankini but I think I was lucky to get these. Well, actually, one was just a sports bra haha.

Yeah, I think I liked a lot of those pictures last year, so they could have shown up on your feed! I'm excited about them though, iz is actually really excited? She doesn't want to tell her sisters about Santa hahaha.

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
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Ruan

Iz is excited? For .... Pictures? 😲 She doesn't even smile!! Lol But for all that she sure is cute. Or is it Santa she is excited about ....

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
Mieke
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Quote by Kat77
Iz is excited? For .... Pictures? 😲 She doesn&;t even smile!! Lol

Man, you really know her :P BELIEVE ME, I'm shocked too! I hope it lasts another 3 months :P

She is awfully cute.. but yeah, she has a rough time with pictures. She hates being the center of attention... unless that attention is mine or Alex's haha.

Today is superhero day at the library! I have a firefighter coming in to read a book to the kids, hopefully they enjoy it.. and kids show up again :P

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
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Ruan

Well, who wouldn't want mom or dads attention, especially when she's had to share it with older siblings and cousins!!!

I hope your story time goes great!! kids love having firemen and other heros come. While at the statewide meeting, the lady in charge of the little kids activities talked the fire marshall into doing a talk with the kids - he was totally unprepared and I have a feeling he hasn't ever done it or not in a long time - because while he wasn't horrible about it, he was definitely not smooth like the ones who know/do it all the time!! LOL (fire marshall had to be in the building due to all the extra people for the different groups meeting there that week - happens a lot down there according to him lol) either way, the kids enjoyed it!! :)

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
Mieke
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Hahaha. Poor fire marshall! :P

Yeah, Logan did a good job! He wasn't great at reading to them, but they loved it when he answered all their questions, and they got to try on his gear, etc. It went really well!

I am home now, and have so much to do, and so little time to do it. Like.. I'm floundering here haha.

I put away the stuff I bought yesterday, and then packed our swim bag.. mine and Alex's, that is. And uhhhhhh. I rinsed the extra dye out of the shirt I made for his aunt. While i was making lunch for myself.

Now I have an hour left before I have to go and I just want to sit here and die :P

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

Where did you have to go? Pick up rugrats?

I finished part 2 in powerpoint. Stupid exam glitched, and somehow said I got the question wrong, and skipped a question. It went back to the one it skipped tho and I got that right...but the other, which I swear I did right, it still said I got wrong. But eh. And I had to relaunch the test to submit it... weird? Got a 98 on the test, so its all good. Part 3 tomorrow or maybe later tonight depending on my mood.

My back is still hurting me, I've tried stretching and heating pad, and tyelenol/advil. Dunno what I did other than start my period. :P Such is life.

Its funny watching people who are NOT used to reading to kids, read to them. The kids probably enjoyed it anyway, the PreK ones always seem to when someone else comes in. Tho some people are .... I hate to say it, but its true .... just reallllllly bad at reading to kids.

Jul 14, 2022 3 years ago
Mieke
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Oh, well, the period is enough to do it.

These weren't just prek, they're a mix. There was one prek, two going into kindergarten, 2 fourth graders and a third grader haha.

And also also, I had to take Iz to pottery.

Jul 15, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

Hah yea I figured your storytime group was a mix. I was just referring to my preK kids That's a small group, but I bet as word gets out you'll get more. I always loved taking my kids to the library for activities when they were younger Ahhh pottery. Sounds fun.

[edit] 1030am Friday

So venting just a bit - mainly because i'm frustrated. I feel like the damn dog has pissed all over the carpet between last night and this morning. Last night I took his bedding outside (so it didn't stink up the house over night) because he peed in it, then tossed another extra bed outside after it because I discovered he'd JUST peed in that, a little later in the evening. THEN he peed on the floor instead of asking to go out. This morning, I try to get him to go out, noooo he wants to drink. Fine. I turn around from giving him water to pee on the floor. Then I go use the bathroom later on and come back out to find what....pee on the floor in another spot. And I swear to god, he doesn't just PEE in one spot, its like he dribbles as he walks away or something too, cuz there is little damp spots away from the big pee spot half the time ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHh And I ran out of carpet shampoo the other day so I haven't been able to shampoo either. I will be buying some this weekend. Stupid stuff is almost $15 a bottle for teh cheap brand tho :(

In other frustrating news, I discovered that i need $250 for tuition this semester. Guess my pell grant is less or something, plus the extra lab fee I have to pay too I guess (biology class required a lab hour, thats an extra $100 itself, but I didn't know if pell would help pay that or not, my guess is not due to the amount of tuition). At least my books are not too expensive this semester, if I can get them used I can get both for less thatn $100. (new is only going to be like $120 or so after taxes so even if I do have to get them new its not too much, but used will save me a little). Add on top of that - oops I forgot to pay for Nathan's class ring this summer! (It has to be paid in full by some time in Aug so they can give him the ring at the ring ceremony, otherwise they'll just deliver it when it gets paid off and he can't do the ring ceremony - I want him to do the ceremony just because the other two kids have - its a cute ceremony) (hubby going to pay that instead of me even though I told him I would pay half, but eh, whatever on that, I feel he can pay that if he has to because he did technically pay in full for the other kids stuff too).

Just to throw in some good news : I finished the powerpoint section and got a 100 on the final quiz. And I did the work ethics for comp. Means I'm done with schoolwork for the week unless I want to work ahead (Psych stuff won't unlock until tuesday (I can read only) and I can do comp ahead if I want) Oooh well tho - I will tell you, I did cheat (sort of?) on the work ethics in comp. It was a 1 question quiz "Did you open and read/watch all the videos in the work ethics folder" I said True, I did it. WELL - I did, but I didn't. I opened like 3 of them, and realized they were all teh same as the ones I'd watched/read fall semester last year, soooooo I didn't watch anymore. So its TRUE I did open and watch them all (FALL semester) but False because I didn't do it THIS semester. :P Bad me? Maybe? :P

Jul 15, 2022 3 years ago
Mieke
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Cheating. On WORK ETHICS?! :P

Justy kidding, you did watch them, I think it's fine! haha.

Ugh, that sounds so frusturating Kat. Maybe bring him to the vet, maybe there's something wrong with him that he's doing it ALL the time?

Jul 15, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

I'm sure there is, if only old age. I can't afford to take him to the vet tho :( If I do take him, it will be to have him put down, because I won't be able to afford any treatments or services. I have been seriously considering it - because it is just stressing me out beyond anything. Literally, just a bit ago - he was drinking and peed while standing there drinking for crying out loud!!!

Hubby came by, replaced the riding lawn mower blades (Nathan ran into a rebar post in the neighbors lawn!) :o Dangit. bent up the blades. So I went out and mowed the rest of OUR yard, and Nathan will go mow the neighbors later (he's being paid to do it, but he was speeeeeeding along, zippidy do da fast as he could and didnt LOOK for anything) to be fair, it was a bit up under a tree and some tall grass, so even had he been looking he might not have seen it. But the yards both have a bunch of ruts/holes/ awful to mow areas so he needed to be being more careful than he was anyhow. The push mower is probably full of water in the gas tank due to all the rain and the fact it was not covered up. Oops. SO need to deal with that too, and replace the tarp on the tent-stand that we use for covering up the mowers. (it wore out and disentegrated)

And yea, hahah of all things to "cheat" on eh? Work Ethics. Honesty, Character, etc :P

[edit] 740am Ok why were your children in my dream last night??? :P So like, I was trying to get kids settled down to sleep. Iz was one bed, and there were two or three other girls in other random beds around the room. And I had almost got Iz to sleep, when one of the others starts making noise or whatever, so Iz woke up, so I crawled in and tried to settle her down again but kept getting kicked and covers thrown off and my gosh she moved up & down and all over the bed ... finally got the older ones quiet and Iz settled down again.... Then i got a phone call (in my dream) and suddenly I was driving in the dark, to Jackson on an almost empty tank of gas, but it wasn't Iz anymore, it was my daughter and one of my pledge girls - who for some reason I had to get to Jackson to get gas so we could take a road trip to California to visit for the youth group out there for some special event....and I got pulled over by the police who had his whole FAMILY in the car, and were thanking me for serving them dinner earlier and handed me a $50 check....which was great since I needed $ for gas - but again, trying to get to Jackson to get gas and I was driving on fumes. I pulled into this park type place, and looked for this old fashioned pump (seriously like you'd find on a farm!! not at a gas station) to find out it was empty or not working!!! And I was freaking out how was I going to get gas w/o running out and being stranded on the road!!! Then I woke up.

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
Taarna
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Kamisama

Hellooo beauties!

Sorry I've been MIA. I've been going through a really bad PMS time for WEEKS and it was just getting worse. My boobs and lower back were bothering me so much that I could barely sleep at night and then after several nights of that, I would pass out and get a nice long sleep in. So I was grouchy, sore, moody and overall getting pretty miserable. Then on Friday when I was going to take a half day and go to the lake beach, Aunt flo decides to show up and keep me in bed. At least my boobs aren't sore anymore. They had literally started to get sore right after my last period! I think this perimenopausal shit might be worse than what I hear menopause is actually like!!

I did get a lot of yard work done throughout the week though, so I'm happy about that. We've had just the opposite of you, Kat - very little rain - so I've had to do a lot of watering.

I kept my brother over a week longer b/c his birthday was on Thursday and I wanted to fix him a nice dinner before sending him back to his self induced misery, which I'll be doing later this evening. (And no, he didn't help me w/ ANY of the yard work but he was able to get the mower blade off, which I wasn't able to, so that I could replace it w/ another one I had.... b/c I had ran over the metal stake that attaches to the lead for the dog.) Needless to say, I did move that stake to a section I don't mow and only use the trimmer on.

Love the pics, Mieke. Makes me miss all the things I would do alone w/ my girls.

That was funny about your dream, Kat. Sorry to see the frustrations about the dog. I would go insane! Maybe fashion him some kind of damn diaper! Definitely sounds like he has a bladder problem, though. I feel you on the vet bills. Mine is decent enough for the area (LOTS of high priced vets around) but getting only 2 cats and the dog UTD on their shots this year was a couple hundred dollars.

We watched Morbius and the latest Venom (Carnage) over the last couple weeks and since I temporarily signed up for Starz, he's been watching the tv nonstop so I'm looking forward to having my living room back and some alone time. He needs to get his shit together real bad and I need to put it out of my mind and let him deal w/ it.

Love the new SubQ line.

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

Ugh sounds like me - with the sore boobs and backache lately. (I've always gotten sore boobs, sometimes more so than other times, sometimes sooner, sometimes later, but always at least tender). At this point, I'd be glad to have hit menopause and not have to deal with the period at all anymore to be honest. I'm not looking forward to any other symptoms tho (hot flashes, night sweats, what have you - tho my mother hasn't really said anything about all that - so maybe I'll have her genetics and it won't be too bad)? :P

The new SubQ line is very cute! :) I like the colors of it.

I have only done rabies for the animals (and have not yet this year, ugh) due to it being the only thing required and doing it for 5 animals costs well over $100 (Its like between $20-$40 per animal depending on where I get it done for JUST the rabies). I think getting him put down will cost me at least $50 if I can remember the quote right for the OTHER dog that was supposed to be put down several years ago. (Hubby - well. Lets just say I was pissed when I found out what he did instead - and even tho I was pissed about it, i'm seriously contemplating it for THIS dog).... Ahem. onwards

Glad you kept your brother a little longer and treated him for his birthday. I think that sometimes some of us just are made that way, we want to help and be involved. I know I am. I would do whatever I can for my kids/family. Including hubby....as shown by the fact I've helped him move in and clean his new place. And have done his laundry a few times for him. But he helps out other ways too - as shown by him replacing the mower blades> I mean - he could have just dropped them off and left it to me and Nathan to figure out how to do it. He didn't, he changed them because he knows how. I always am wanting the older two to come home to me, even tho they have their own lives (and mine is honestly disrupted by their visits - especially the older son) I am always wondering if they are doing ok and if they need anything. I help with whatever I can, whenever I can (sometimes when I shouldn't - which I have learned for my older son I should not and do not most of the time now - even tho it makes me feel bad). Anyway, I just mean, its good to feel that way, its just not always good to act on it I guess. Like you said, he has to be the one to get his act together, no one else can do it for him (which is what I've realized for my oldest son - he is just going to be stupid in his own way and if he never learns different, thats his choice. I've talked to him and told him and helped him as much as I can and now he has to do it on his own). - sorry, he's financially stupid. He really is. Spends whatever he makes on stuff he really doesn't need. (yes, he just recently told me about another thing which is why i'm going on about it - because he always also is telling me he got $ to buy groceries or whatever from grandma or aunt or friend or whatever too - don't buy the stupid shit and you'll have grocery money!!!!)

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
Taarna
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Kamisama

I've always gotten the sore boobs, too. S/times it's so bad where bumps in the road will even make them hurt. I barely had any symptoms before my last period and then WHAM, they come AFTER it. Like, WTF is going on!! I totally agree that I would rather hit menopause than deal w/ this shit every 1-2mths... and yes, the past couple years I've been skipping months. The only thing I dread are the hot flashes, since I already have hyperhidrosis. Can't imagine sweating anymore than I already do.

I watched my mom make really stupid financial choices, even from getting her first house after the divorce. I knew she couldn't afford it after my younger brother's child support was over. She got herself way in over her head and would find people to bail her out multiple times. Then the house was taken after she didn't have anyone else to bail her out, had already lost electric and was in her car for a few nights w/ all her damn animals and I stayed w/ her in a park w/ some in my own car. I was married at the time but couldn't help as I wasn't working but the torture of seeing her go through that was devastating. She found a trailer to rent and through the years she kept losing electric, getting bailed out by another couple people and finding out that the county would've helped her by setting her up in a place and having most of her bills paid IF she got rid of most of her animals but she DENIED, just ended it for me. There were definitely other things, which is why I haven't spoken to her in years, but seeing the level of stupidity and finally who she was all along is enough to not make me want to go through it again w/ my brother. He was given a house and 2 cars, both of which broke down, and has had years of me helping him to get on his feet while he didn't put shit into the bills to keep the lights turned on. Now he doesn't even have water.
I pay for his phone and service so he has what he needs to reach out to the city to get help and apply for local jobs. He said there's black mold in the finished basement which I don't even know how he's going to treat that but it seems that he's either going to let it run in to the ground and lose all that our dad put into it or maybe finally get his shit together - which honestly he doesn't have a track record of doing.

Rant over lol

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

Its good when you can actually get help. When you are eligible for it. My experiences have all sucked. The few times I've needed aid I've jumped thru hoops and then either gotten denied or very little aid.

I am supposed to get a raise in September, not only just the yearly salary-step/raise but a better one, so says the principal of the school (back in like March-he told all of us Para's we were supposed to get a raise). I sure hope that's right, because with the costs of everything going up, I could use more (who couldn't, to be honest!).

I have read 2 sections of my next chapter in Psych and really feel like I'm ahead of myself LOL I shouldn't have started - but I finished all my quests already. (First time in.... well... since sometime in JUNE!!)

[edit] Thank you Major Drills!! (just finished him - that was really the only quests I had left to do) [item2=Mountain Rocks]

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
Taarna
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Don't get me wrong, he has a high school buddy that lives on the same block as him... w/ his parents. He has some kind of disability that only allows him to work, at Wendy's for like the past 20yrs, and not drive. The Wendy's is a few blocks down from brother's house, nearly a mile I think, and he used to walk to work and back all the time. Now he has an electric bike. So my brother (Danny) can go up to his house, charge his phone and take a shower and the buddy brings him Wendy's to eat all the time.
Danny never got the bills switched over to his name after Dad passed..... Yeah, he just turned 42. Time to grow up.

Btw - yes, let's go to the beach!! Honestly just being able to get outside and worship the sun and get in the rectangular kid pool a few times has really helped my mood. I want to today but moving just makes the pain (and everything else) worse.

I don't think raises are going to cover the cost of inflation. Good gawd have I noticed it much more this month and it's really sucking. I work for a grocery company and I'm pretty sure their last quarter is going to suck, which is what they use to determine bonuses in March. There's absolutely NO reason why those at the top get 6 figure bonuses.

I have some psyche books I need to read for recapitulation purposes so I probably need to get back on Kindle. Used Audible for a couple months but for $16 bucks a month you only get what they want to give you and the rest is used by "credits", which you only get 1 a month. Started going back through the Dark Tower series (Stephen King) b/c the narrator is incredible and I've already listened to the entire series twice or more. Got 2 in and decided to cancel the sub.

I think the "aid" for that particular county he's in is worse. While it's been a very long time since, the last time I went for help you had to make an appointment - fine - then fill out all the paperwork and get "processed", then they want you to come back 2 more times w/ proof that you're looking for a job before they say you're "eligible". Um... what if you don't have a car........ or wait better yet, at the time it was just me and my first daughter and you couldn't bring children in w/ you b/c you had to show that you had the ability to provide babysitting when you get a job........ and the outskirts of the county don't even have public transportation so wtf are you supposed to do?! I said to hell w/ them.
At least he can call and find out what he needs to do. Hell, we (mostly him and our mom) have a family friend that knows how to navigate the system quite efficiently so he needs to suck in his pride and talk to her about what he can do.

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

The beach would have been nicer - I went outside. I did not worship the sun :P I mowed the rest of the front yard (yesterday I did what I call our yard, ... the rest is like, waaay in the front and no one uses it as a yard or for anything but it is part of our property). Since slug-a-bed didn't get up and I wanted it done. I did leave the neighbors backyard for him, since he's getting paid to do her yard. Most of what I did was ours, just a little bit of hers in the front that is next to ours. She gave me the $ for him. I almost kept it and didn't pass it on hahah.

No, raises won't cover inflation, but at least it WILL help a little bit. Usually every year so far (and its been gosh, 7 yrs?) I've gotten at least an extra $25 per paycheck raise (like, it goes from being $1000 to $1025 for the rest of the year, then in Sept again it goes from $1025 to $1050, etc) That may not be the accurate amount, It could be closer to $50 per month by now. I'm using it as an example. I don't remember how much it really went up (its been almost a year! and more for the other years!) - but also I don't remember because I keep changing my insurance and health expense savings thingy trying to figure out an optimal amount of coverage. And that changes my paycheck too. My monthly bring home right now is actually $1125. So my gross is like around $1600. You'd think I'd be eligible for some help, but nope not really. I dunno if I've said but I looked into it in case I decided I needed to do it after the divorce (or before) - and at my income level, with 2 people in the household, I would get all of $135 monthly food stamps. And no other assistance, other than he (Nathan) would be on medicaid instead of peachcare (right now they are both free anyway - have been since covid, but peachcare I used to have to pay a small amount based on income rather than free like medicaid- basically cheap kids insurance thru the state). And he would get free school lunch, which again, since covid, he has been doing anyway. I really don't know what other assistance I would be eligible for anyway (if any at all!), and not sure where to look if I ended up needing something else.

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
Taarna
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Kamisama

Your raises sound like mine... just a little per year, though it hasn't kept up w/ others I've worked w/ and have moved to the same level and beyond. Were they smarter? Some, definitely not all. A "level up" was what I was supposed to receive this year but instead the company wanted to reorg, yet again, and start having former compadre's (positions that I was in prior to my current one) raised up by level and pay, as well as hiring more b/c they've been given more tasks to do.....which is GREAT b/c they were stuck in a cap; But that took away mine, which is years overdue to begin with.
My time out is coming.... I just hope it's a really good one. ;)

I don't think I've ever seen s/one show their income so openly. That's really surprising and, well, open?! Thanks for sharing. Just an FYI... when you get your divorce, hubby won't be so willing to replace fans or any other work. It will open up other opportunities for you but it's not going to be a smooth road, as you probably already know. I do not recommend you giving up child support payments b/c that will bite you in the ass. Trust me when I say that when a parent is obligated by state law to DO s/thing, they get shitty about it and the only person they think they can take it out on is their former spouse.

Ok... I think that I'm bringing nothing but negativity to the conversations so I'm going to sign off for the night. Not to say that anyone that always brings positivity isn't annoying too, lol... but after learning what I did earlier about my brother and his plans, I'm just in all kinds of mental upheaval.

Jul 16, 2022 3 years ago
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Kat77
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Ruan

Mental upheaval is exhausting.

To be honest, I think he will still be willing to do things to help out. He was raised by a man who did much the same for his mama. (not his dad, but his step dad - after stepdad & mom divorced, stepdad still kept up with family and helped as he could). I'm not saying it WON'T happen, or it WILL happen. I just think there is a decent chance that he will remain helpful as I need, as he says he will. If not, I have 2 brothers who live only 5hrs-ish away who would be helpful if I requested it. I try not to request of them however, I live my life my way. Also I think Katie's boyfriend/family would do what they could if I needed strength or knowledge I don't have also. I also believe if I truly needed to, I could figure out most stuff myself.

No plans to give up child support, mostly wondering how to make it once child isn't around anymore/ is an adult too. Not only financially, but like, life-style wise. Do I want to live alone? I don't think I will, but then again, maybe I'll love it. I do know I would prefer a smaller place to live if I was living alone, but since I have little income and the mortgage on this place is waaaaay cheaper than rent these days....this place it is. I don't have an issue with people knowing what I make, especially when it helps explain why I say what I say about things (like the aid from the state - obviously I'd have to have pretty low income to even be anywhere near eligible.) Also I am glad I am a PreK Para, because the Kindergarten Para's earn even less than I do - they only work 7hr days (I work 8hr days) and they only work like 182 days instead of 190. So like, my paycheck could be like, $800 or something instead of what it is. :P

I never really had to worry about how much my income was before because we had his income too, which, obviously, is way more than mine and is what truly supported the household. I suppose I could get a second job, at least during summertime if I really needed to, especially once Nathan is older/adult. I do have the youth group to keep me busy, which is one reason I haven't ever thought seriously of that before. - Kind of hard to say hey boss, I want a job for the summer, but I need 3 weeks of it off to do youth group activities!! :P I do think if I worked someplace like, Walmart for instance, I would probably have a better paycheck just because it wouldn't be 190 days of work divided into 12 monthly paychecks. I would most likely work more than 190 days :P Thus more income. I do enjoy my breaks from work tho. Again, to be honest, its also one of the considering factors in going back to school, because yes, while right now I won't be getting much more for just schooling (or a 2yr degree even) - once done - my paycheck would about double in size even as a beginner teacher.

And yes, I know I should also get alimony/spousal support especially once Nathan isn't any longer in the picture, mostly due to the length of the marriage, and I am hoping that he will see the light on that one, but at the same time I am not sure its worth the fight to me (if it comes to a fight- you know I do not like confrontation or arguing) - I know I don't even have the $ to file for a divorce, I looked up the filing costs and sheeeeeesh. So that is waiting on him to do it. He is also the one that wanted the divorce in the first place, so he can get on with it if thats what he wants. I'm not spending MY $ on it. I honestly have no idea why he hasn't. Whatever shrugs Guess he's just happy being in his own place for now and away from me/this life/whatever.

Ok and now I am being a debbie downer :P Enough from all of us eh? We need to think of happier things to discuss for crying out loud!!!!

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