Did you try changing the guild lines for the forums first ? awww never mind,I was going to debate this issue,but I forgot,we are not allowed to debate : / And to 's point,I seen a lot of people getting hurt on the so called fun forums for no reason at all except maybe pinging someone by accident or some other stupid reason than I care to remember,anyway,that's my last word here.

I went on the debate forum a few times and honestly, I can see why it was deleted. Most of the time the "debates" were just two people or groups of people tearing each other apart for having different opinions instead of even attempting to see the other person's side. In fact I don't think I saw a single topic without a moderator on it asking the people to remain civil, and some topics had gotten so hostile it was a wonder anyone with a dissenting opinion was posting on them at all.

I can argue the same thing about the entertainment and roleplay forums. There are better places than subeta for those.

Since when did subeta care about how many users? There have been changes made to cater to what seems like a small number of users posting about other topics before. If some people got use out of debates enough for it to at least have active topics you wouldn't necro by posting on, then I don't see the point of deleting the forum.

Of course, if I want more info on a particular subject, I won't use subeta for that, but it was a nice starting point. The asexuality thread was particularly interesting as users helped explain it and what it encompasses and I didn't even have to post on that thread to get something out of it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the value of debates on subeta. Disappointed it's gone, but there's nothing I can do about it. Maybe next time get feedback from more users about the topic instead of acting on what was less than a page's worth of responses? I would feel less sour about this if you had gauged feedback differently. Not everyone who frequents suggestions frequents (let alone posts in) debates and vice versa.

And what you find uncomfortable and too taboo a subject, I find interesting and enlightening. In the real world, people are afraid to speak what they believe in for getting judged / shunned. It was much easier to find out the reasoning behind opinions online.

I had no way of knowing that as I don't follow staff's decisions/wants for years on end. So it looked like you caved to a handful of users. Not what happened, but that's what it came across as to someone who didn't know that.

It makes sense to me.

I just came back from vacation to this. Thank you for doing it. I am rarely on forums to begin with, and I was only on that one once or twice, but the first time I ever saw it I couldn't help thinking it might just be a recipe for disaster. I did not say so, though. It just does not fit. There are places devoted to such sensitive debate everywhere online AND in the real world. Subeta is not one of those places. Without even reading the response, I'll assume, obviously, people are going to be in an uproar by deeming this "censorship" or "smothering things that matter to the fanbase." A lot of serious things matter to me and bother me deeply. A petsite is not the first place that comes to mind when I want to have such a conversation. You've gotta be reasonable here.

I absolutely understand that finding a niche community in a place where you're already centered is important. However, that is a shot in the dark, and really cannot overwhelm the negative effect such a forum can have on the community. The community is much, much bigger than that, and if such discussions MUST be had, they can quickly and easily be continued on a different site, or perhaps in personal one-on-one communication. Such forums don't filter out the things that offend or bother us. There will always be people who have differing, "wrong," and sometimes even "nasty" opinions on things close to your heart. I'm not saying it's okay; it bothers me too. But a blatant invitation for that kind of headbutting is not a good idea on a place geared towards fun and fantasy and relaxation.

I hope I was clear in my dialogue. :)

Goodbye and good riddance! I never really bothered with the debate forums anyways.

Bad decision in my oppinion. Most of the users are adults and should be able to work with different opinions even if they are negative or absurd or mean. The world isn´t pink and full of rainbows. And I deem it irresponsible to pretend otherwise. These topics do interest because many users are affected. And it is easier to talk about certain topics with people who share interests, hobbies or a mindset. To tell them to go elsewhere is taking this possibility away.

To break down a whole forum because the topics do not please a few people enough and some users aren´t sugar coating their words for a handful hypersensitive snowflakes is neither mature nor useful. As I stated before there ARE also users who WANT to feel insulted and are always interpreting the worst into a statement.

Why not moderate the forum and look after the discussions? Why not intervene and actually moderate (not only lashing out warnings and punishments)? Would have been a better approach.

I've been considering what to say about this since the 7th. Let me just start by saying that I am incredibly glad the debate forums has been removed.

From my first days here on Subeta, I was aware of how hostile the debate forums could be. On some topics, there was absolutely no debate and no desire to entertain differing opinions. The hot button topics were especially perilous territory, where one could almost count on being attacked if they disagreed with the majority. Not only did I see this happen to others, but I also had it from personal experience. And very seldom do I feel like anyone actually learned anything from them, other than to stay clear of the forum perhaps.

Perhaps it is because I speak from the perspective of someone who didn't always agree with the majority, but as far as I am concerned the debate forums were much more negative than they were positive.

[edit] Many of the users on this site may be adults, myself included, but this site is not 18+. It is 13+. There are plenty of young people on here to consider. Also, debate is incredibly difficult to moderate. How much is too much? When is it not enough? People engaged in heated topics seldom want to be told that they need to tone it down and may not always see that the other person(s) involved is feeling attacked. It's not necessarily the result of being overly sensitive. Sometimes it's just coming at it from a different perspective.

I completely agree with your statement. There are young people to consider. A possibility would be a 18+ forum where only adults may discuss such topics. And I also agree that it is difficult to moderate heated discussions. But one may try at least. The other option, to close off a whole forum and pretend those problems and topics don´t exist, is far more irresponsible than some bruised feelings. People whose mindset is intolerable, sexist, racist (and so on) should be in the open to be dealt with. A nice facade pretending everything is well in wonderland, is dangerous.

Yeah, one may choose nice words but the whole perspective is the thing that hurts. I know this. In my opinion is that the point where a discussion about perspectives and views is inevitable and absolutely essential. Changing someones mind and change as a whole won´t come by ignoring these topics/problems/persons whose opinions we don´t like or share. It´s never a good solution to say someone else (or in this case another forum) should deal with our problems because we are afraid of mean words or feelings getting hurt.

By the way: We can learn from negativity as well. We learn how to do it better. I like Lewis´ statement "Bad experiences: the most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn" a LOT (-;

I don't think anyone here is trying to pretend that those problems don't exist. However, I don't believe that a pet site is the proper place to debate opposing view points on them. Subeta is supposed to be fun and relaxing. For most people, debate is neither.

The fact is, if a person is open to learning, there are other parts of the forums in which that can occur. If they are not open to learning, then they will not learn no matter how hard others try to educate them. Also, while experience may be a great teacher, people respond better to kind words than to attacks.

Nobody forces anyone into a debate. You don´t want to debate you won´t debate. Simple. You can shun the debate forum, you don´t have to look into it if it means stress.

Quiet true that people react better to kind words. Then why don´t find kind words for those users who are problematic? Why not talk/discuss with them with kind words? Why will they be shut up like this?

I'm not going to miss the debate forums. I used to go there years ago but decided that other forums on the internet were a lot better for discussing things.

You are correct in that no one forces anyone to debate. But, not everyone is capable of walking away, even if they know they should.

In answer to your questions... The people who could perhaps do the most good are the people you are least likely to see there. Though the two things are not mutually exclusive, people who enjoy debate are not typically inclined to be kind and typically people that are kind are not inclined to enjoy debate.

[edit] Poor choice of words in that last sentence... I didn't get across what I was trying to say and... Even I am a little bit offended by them. Only excuse I have is that I probably need to eat something. Meh. Anywho... I do want to apologize, not just to the person I was talking to, but to anyone reading. Gonna leave the text like it is though, because well, I did say it.

>people who enjoy debate are not typically inclined to be kind and typically people that are kind are not inclined to enjoy debate.

Sorry but I´d like to strongely disagree on this point. Good that I´m not one of those special snowflakes because I might feel insulted now (-;

Yes well we won´t find a common ground on that point. (-:

It would have been nice if we could have had something like that happen, but the truth is no reasonable suggestion was ever going to save the debate forum. If you look at what happened, all of the people complaining about its existence had either never even been to the forum, or didn't like it because someone disagreed with them. Apparently disagreeing with someone makes you a horrible person now.

The way it was just removed without warning suggests that it didn't matter whether the forum was bad or not; they just wanted to get rid of it regardless. Saying there were bad people there was just an excuse to do so.

I've seen things happening on other boards here and they still remain. Such as a 23 yr old man and a 17 yr old girl together. Resulting in her taking a hiatus from this site out of embarrassment due to the sexual nature of their contact being exposed. Someone made a suggestion and they were calling her stupid, and actually being horrible to her. They made her feel so badly about herself that she said she wasn't going to post again.

I've said it before, but I will reiterate my point. The people who are actually being nasty are still around. They are mostly scattered around on other areas of the forum as pointed out. Removing Debate will not remove those people. If you don't actually deal with the cause of the problem, the problem will still remain.

It's not my site, not my decision; but I don't think removing debate will make this site any friendlier.

Personally I think society is taking the whole sensitivity thing too far. Every little thing has become 'offensive' now. Psychologists call these slights narcissistic injuries. I could go in to that topic more, but this isn't really the place for it =)

It's like Salman Rushdie said.

I cannot say if Keith´s reasons are true or just an excuse. I simply don´t agree with them. His given reasons are plain dangerous in my eyes.

I have been to the forum one time and was verbally attacked by one or two users for stating a neutral voiced opinion. They were deeply offended (by the opinion, not the choice of words). I myself wasn´t offended by their words because I know discussions get heated when emotions are involved. We are human after all. But arguing and beeing mean is part of life and we have to confront one another at some point and find solutions for our disagreements.

> Personally I think society is taking the whole sensitivity thing too far. Every little thing has become 'offensive' now. Psychologists call these slights narcissistic injuries.

Completely agree with you (:

Yes, I agree I didn't phrase that well. I sincerely apologize.